Manteca club's women-only gun class teaches empowerment, overcoming fear

[X_Digger]

http://www.insidebayarea.com/trivalleyherald/localnews/ci_13782859

MANTECA — Donna Matthew was shaking and nervous when she squeezed the trigger of her first handgun. Although scary, it's an experience she hopes to repeat — and she's not alone.

The Tracy resident was one of more than 45 women who participated recently in a free, women-only firearms class at the Manteca Sportsmen's Club. The objective of the class, Ladies' Pistol I, was to teach women the basics about guns.

<snip>

"It was the first time I ever (shot a gun)," Matthew said as sounds of gunfire echoed around her. "I enjoyed it. There's a lot more to it than I ever imagined. I thought I'd be more afraid of a gun, but they give you solid information."

Classes are offered for both beginners and experts in the use of firearms, including pistols, shotguns or rifles. The idea is to promote gun safety and show people that guns, when handled properly, are not to be feared, instructors said.

Good to see gun safety classes being offered at minimal cost ($10 for all levels, free for the women's only classes, everything included.)

[eqfan592]

1. Thanks for the post.

I wish more places started offering these sort of classes.

And seriously, 2 drive-by unrecers at least? How lame.

[Naked_Ape]

9. Here's one in North Texas

http://safety-on.com/
south of fort worth

[greennina]

2. violence isn't the answer to violene.

Two wrongs don't make a right. These people are disgusting.

[eqfan592]

3. Ahhh, so a person who is being attacked by a violent criminal...

....shouldn't defend themselves? Sorry, but the fact that you can realize how sick and twisted that is is what's really disgusting. Not to mention there is NOTHING wrong about teaching people how to safely handle a firearm. It prevents the sort of tragic accidents that people like you love to hand-wring over. Maybe that's your real motivation for hating programs like this; you need your blood to dance in.

[GreenStormCloud]

4. Using violence to resist violence is not wrong.

My wife used her gun to prevent herself from being murdered. No shots were fired, the BG ran away when he saw she had a gun. Please explain how it would have been morally superior to have allowed herself to become a dead crime victim.

[reggie the dog]

17. your wife was not raped and murdered because she had a gun

and knew how to use it, so her confidence showed and the perp freaked out and left. I would rather read that a woman shot or warded off a rapist/murderer than read that a woman was raped and murdered......

[GreenStormCloud]

18. She came home that evening saying, "He was afraid of ME!"

She had a feeling of incredible empowerment. She is a small woman, 4'10", and was accustomed having to fear strange men. To have seen one flee in total terror of her was a new experience. She instantly became a firm believer that women should take classes, get licensed, and carry guns. From kitten to lioness in one day.

I am sure that the street criminal had expected her to freeze in terror, scream and cry, and was totally surprised when she instead became commanding and agressive and most of all - confident, as she pointed a .38 at him. The sudden realization that his youth and muscles against a tiny, grandmotherly, woman counted for zero against her revolver must have been a shock to his system.

We have talked about it a few times and she has said that she had already made the decision to shoot when he reached 21 feet and there was no doubt in her mind that she would do so. She wasn't bluffing.

[reggie the dog]

19. that is great and I am happy for your family. We need more

civilians who are armed like this. I can imagine how happy you were. I vote on the left but I profoundly believe in the right to carry concealed weapons for self defense and the case of your wife is exactly why I believe this. When we can defend ourselves we are no longer prey.

[SteveM]

30. A minor problem with your statement...

"I vote on the left but I profoundly believe in the right to carry concealed weapons for self-defense..."

You imply that save for your belief, you vote on the left. I have never seen a strong defense of 2A as anything other than a "left" philosophy. The Second Amendment, encoded as it is in the Constitution, must be one of the most radical statements ever to grace any nation's governing document; it is only in the last few generations that an attempt has been made to make 2A a "conservative" or "reactionary" philosophy. We need to push that crappola back.

Otherwise, I agree with you!

[a la izquierda]

31. I'm curious as to why you feel your small wife...

is accustomed to fearing strange men. Did she tell you that? Or do you project this onto her? I noticed you wrote she's grandmotherly-so, has she always felt this way? I ask because I'm 5'1, 110 pounds. I don't walk around at night fearing strange men. I also grew up in cities and have traveled extensively in Latin America, so I suspect I have a street sense that she may not possses.

It has never occurred to me to get a gun. I'm just asking out of curiosity.

[eqfan592]

32. It's not a matter of simply "fearing strange men."

That seems like an overly slimpistic way of breaking it down. Also, it doesn't appear she has fear of them at all, really, as she was able to face one down.

You have to take the situation into account. Walking down the street and just seeing another man walking isn't usually reason to draw your firearm. Sure, it's a good idea to be aware of them, but unless they do something provocative, there's not reason to be overly concerned. This is very different from being in a dark parking lot, alone, and having a man you don't know running at you from a dark corner of the garage. This is not the behavior of a typical "honest" person. At this point, defensive measures seem to be warranted.

I've also lived in a city most of my life, and I've also seen the shockingly slow police response times in both the city and the suburbs. If you would never feel comfortable, that's fine. But the reality is that we are responsible for our own personal safety, not the police, and I'd want the best means possible available to me.

[GreenStormCloud]

33. eqfan592 in post #32 explains it well.

My word choice should indeed be understood conditionally. In certain circumstances, she does fear men who present a set of danger signals. She pays attention to those signals. The book The Gift of Fear discusses how that kind of fear is a life saver if one listens to it. However, the book does not advise getting a gun, but if you can't otherwise outrun or outfight a criminal, the a gun becomes an important survival tool. I used "grandmotherly" to mean harmless appearing - to conjure up an image of baking cookies instead of wielding a gun.

I am sure that you must be aware that violent crime does exist, and that human violent predators are almost exclusively male. There are situations in which fear is well advised.

What would you do if you suddenly discovered that a violent criminal had selected you as his next, immediate, victim? I do not intend to be argumentative with that question, but it is a fair question.

[a la izquierda]

34. I want to respond in detail, but I appreciate your response...

however, I have to make an OKC to Amarillo run to deliver a boxer dog to his new family (my husband's coworker runs a rescue org).
But, thanks for your explanation. Let's just say I've always been a little irritated by folks who say, well she's kind of small, so..., and then a description of your wife as grandmotherly. I assumed "oh lord, this guy's some sexist pig." So, I smiled when I saw the part about baking. My mom is the exact same way. And so am I, I guess.
Anyway, more later.

[GreenStormCloud]

35. You will find that all of the regular pro-RKBA, pro self-defense, posters here in this forum...

are very willing to politely explain anything to a person who is willing, as you seem to be, to actually discuss questions. I wold be happy to answer such questions as I could.

Sorry if my language was confusing, and thank you for giving me the chance to clarify. My wife is decended from several generations (Including some Indian blood.)of frontier women who knew how to be tough as nails when they had to be, but never lost their intelligence or charm - or their cooking abilities. But a woman is usually badly outclassed if she has to defend herself from a violent man, unless she has effective tools for the job, and guns are such a tool.

[a la izquierda]

36. Okay, so here's my response.

I grew up with a healthy respect for guns. My dad hunts, my uncle was a cop and several family members served in the military. Guns were a part of my life. I've never shot one, but not because they bother me. In fact, I'm sort of indifferent to guns. I don't care if responsible people have them, though when Oklahoma tried to pass a law allowing students who were former military to carry guns on campus, I was a bit concerned (I'm a graduate student teaching assistant and I've had extraordinarily irate students in my presence-I would NOT want one of them armed).
So, as I mentioned, I grew up with guns around. When my folks divorced when I was 10, my mom taught me to be self-reliant. I grew up around in a family of male cousins who were very protective of me and taught me to fight for myself-so much so that while playing a game of manhunt with some friends, when a boy grabbed me around the head in a headlock, my instinct was to punch him in the gut, release my head, drill him in the solar plexus and smash his head into the ground. I got grounded for a month for beating the hell out of him. But my mom also knew from that point on that her very undersized oldest daughter would be able to defend herself quite well. My mother drilled street smarts into me: for instance, one night, when I was a freshman in college (in a city that is not that pleasant), my mom and I left a restaurant and walked back to the car. She immediately grabbed my arm and walked me into the street, around a van parked in a dark corner- "don't ever walk next to the sliding door of a van" she said "because you never know if someone is in there just waiting to grab you." For a long time, I thought my mom was just being neurotic. In fact, she was teaching me small, important lessons. I've never carried mace or a knife, but if I'm driving long distances by myself, I have a baseball bat in the car.
When I've traveled in Latin America, particularly Mexico City, I can generally walk around after dark without feeling threatened. A gun won't help me there anyway-they're illegal and most criminals are much better armed. But, I walk with a set of eyes in the back of my head-I keep my head moving constantly, occasionally I'll pretend to talk on the phone if I feel threatened. I've even walked right up to perfect strangers and struck up conversations.
I don't begrudge anyone for owning guns- I guess I've never felt a particular need to have one. Anyone casing my home would have to be a flippin' moron to break into my place (I have three dogs-two are very large, scary looking/sounding breeds; one of my dogs barks at EVERYONE who walks by, regardless of how well he knows them). I also look like a complete lunatic, so I suspect that helps my cause (I have a shaved head and am tattooed to my elbows on both arms, and from ankles to knees on my legs). I've lived in shady areas, and now live in a quiet college town in Oklahoma. If I ever wanted a gun, I'd go get one.

I guess my issue wasn't with the gun, it was with the description of your wife- people assume I'm some helpless idiot because I'm small and wear reading glasses. But your post makes your wife sound more like me-a tough cookie- and not like a helpless lass.
Cheers!

[GreenStormCloud]

38. Thanks for an excellent response.

You pratice situational awareness and avoidance of likely trouble spots. You present an image of not being an easy victim. That is most of the battle.

Since my wife does office type work and has to dress professionally, and has the beginning of dowager's hump (The curving of the upper spine that many older women get) she can't make the tough woman image work for her. So she needs the gun to back up her play if a situation happens. Like you, she practices situation awareness and avoids trouble if she can.

Unrelated to guns, but I gotta tell you this story about her.

About nine years ago I was at work on Saturday in the spring. A thunderstorm came through. (Note for lurkers. In OKC & Dallas, spring storms are often really violent.) I quit at noon and returned home to see a fire truck at the house, her car moved, a tree down, and lots of people standing around with her talking to them. She had been outside when the storm hit, a tornado was in the storm, the tree began to come down, slowly. She jumped into the car, cranked it and got it out of the way of the tree. Then the winds began to rip dozens of shingles off the roof. Lightening hit the power line leading to the house, only inches from the house. (She kept the blown lines as a souvenir.)Sparks flew from the wall outlets. She ran to the circuit breaker and flipped all the switches off. Called fire dept. She had a pet chicken that was sitting on some eggs in a nest on the front porch - moved chicken inside house.

The insurance company paid for the damage to the house, but refused to pay for computers, VCR, TV, and other fried electronics. They claimed that it was a power surge and not a direct strick to the house by lightning. I was ready to give up and not fight the insurance company. Not her. She was furious, and went to war with the company. She felt that she had saved the company a huge claim by all that she had done, and deserved better consideration from them. She found that the power company had a system that showed where every lightning bolt in a storm hits, and that one had indeed hit our house. The insurance company paid.

My nickmane for her is "Little Lightning".

BTW - The tornado only did minor damage to us, but it managed to find some house trailers and enjoyed itself. Nobody was hurt.

[a la izquierda]

39. I love the tornado story..

now, that's where I become an utter wuss. I grew up in New Jersey. I moved to Los Angeles before finally starting grad school in Oklahoma. I get frantic if there's even a whiff of a tornado. I'll start getting the closets ready, and my old dog gets shoved in there (he's blind).
Good on her! She sounds great!
Hey, heads up...wintry mix headed our way early next week.

[iverglas]

44. please stop

From kitten to lioness in one day.

I'd like to retain some of the nourishment I took in a few hours ago.


:puke:

tinged with total astonishment at the inability to even try to conceal the MCPery. Just gobsmacking, it is.

[GreenStormCloud]

46. MCPerry? What's that?

I rather liked the line that you quoted. Oh well, different tastes and all that. She was quite pleased with herself that day.

[iverglas]

47. one "r"

But I guess the "g" has to be doubled, so make it MCPgery. We feminists were just saying it must be a generational thing -- I got MCP right away, but MRA eluded me.

Really, all you have to do is think to yourself: what kind of a male creature might be want to use cat metaphors when describing women? Gotta go, fixing to puke again.

[GreenStormCloud]

54. Someone who likes both cats and women? N/T

[rd_kent]

58. Hey, you're back! With even more poutrage than ever! Great!

A woman protects herself from possible rape and murder, and all YOU have to contribute is how upset you are with her husbands use of metaphor to describe the empowering change he saw in his wife? Wow, just wow.

[iverglas]

48. oh, btw

My wife used her gun to prevent herself from being murdered.

You actually have something to back this statement up, do you? Whaddid he say: wotcha, little lady, I am now going to snap your neck like a pretzel?

Is it, like, a known fact that every time a big bad-looking guy approaches a wee little ladykins on the street, she is going to end up dead if she doesn't shoot him?


Just exactly the kind of bullshit patriarchal propaganda that's been used for centuries to keep women off the streets (and out of the factories, and the boardrooms), and now is being used to get them hooked up to the gun militant tentacle of the ugly right wing trying to suck up all the air in the land.

[PavePusher]

50. More bitter, vile, accusatory filth from the Canadian contingent, I see. n/t

[iverglas]

52. man, get a new writer

That isn't even imitation. It's just dumb.

[PavePusher]

53. Just thought I should use words you'd recognise. n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

74. Nicely said.

[GreenStormCloud]

55. She is convinced. That's enough for me. I trust her judgement.

It wouldn't matter if I posted all the details. You would not believe that she was in deadly danger unless we could get Schrodinger's Cat to paw back the curtain to cast our pupil-slits at the alternate reality in which she was declawed. To prevent such catastrophies she keeps her .380 claws sharpened.

[iverglas]

56. okay, you just keep on

I haven't had anything to eat for a while now, so I should be safe.

Maybe your little woman knows what a MCP is. Can't see how she could possibly not do. But then, maybe being discussed in public in these terms, animal, has worked its magic and she'd have to look up to see bottom at this point.

Funny how none of these little women ever shows up for a cuppa and a natter, isn't it just? A suspicious mind might wonder about their existence. A merely moderately sharp mind can easily see the real beneficiaries of all these reptilian lacrimae, and how it matters not too much whether any particular women exist or not. Women? Objects to be manipulated and exploited. And likened to animals in the off moments.

Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in sæcula sæculorum, Amen.

[GreenStormCloud]

62. I'm happy to help with your weight loss plan.

But I don't really think that bulimia is good for your health, especially with you being on the mend. I don't know what part of your anatomy may need reduction, but I can guess.

Googled MCP. Got:
Microsoft Certified Professional
Molecular and Cellular Proteomics
Maritime Communications Partner


Maybe it means: Most Contented Pussy

[paulsby]

79. remember this is the same "great mind"

that thought it unjustified that a homeowner, in an isolated home that had previously been burgled, who late at night, heard a loud explosion, then saw two men crawling across his yard, pulled a gun on the two.

seriously.

[logjon]

65. good point

he probably just thought the little lady could use a friendly escort through the bad part of town

would it have been more acceptable if she had simply been beaten and/or raped?

being a victim does not grant one any sort of moral superiority. i'm getting pretty sick of a society that seems to shun violence even when one is in immediate danger.

[iverglas]

70. you talkin to me?

would it have been more acceptable if she had simply been beaten and/or raped?

What's all this noise?

Her choices were

(a) pull a gun
(b) get beaten and/or raped

?

Sez who? You got the crystal ball today?

Go look up "false dichotomy" somewhere.


i'm getting pretty sick of a society that seems to shun violence even when one is in immediate danger.

Aww. Surrounded by silly "liberals" are you? Maybe you should move to Texas, where men are men and women are cats or some fucking thing.

[GreenStormCloud]

73. It is all about assesing the probabilities given the totality of the circumstances.

DeBecker's book, "The Gift of Fear" is excellent of being able to predict when one is in danger, and when the approach is harmless.

Given the total situation at the time, she was convinced that a violent attack was imminent. She responded in a manner that left both her and her probable attacker unhurt.

She considers that a purrfcat outcome.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

75. So your crystal ball is the only one that works?

[logjon]

89. crystal balls

clearly what iverglas means to say is that the only acceptable outcome is to wait and see what happens. because if we don't have a crystal ball and know exactly what is going to happen if we don't defend ourselves against a perceived threat, even one that we have assessed at a high probability of producing physical harm, we are not fit to be stuck to the pacifist's shoe.

if someone is approaching you menacingly, just assume the best. we should all be so willing to just wait and see what they decide to do. must be nice to live in a world so full of rainbows and puppy dogs.

>Go look up "false dichotomy" somewhere.

go look up "reality" somewhere. here in the real world, your pacifist shit gets people hurt. i've seen it too many times.

[iverglas]

95. clearly yours has a screw loose

Or, as I say to people who park in disabled parking spaces: is your disability mental, or just moral?


clearly what iverglas means to say is that the only acceptable outcome is to wait and see what happens.

Clearly, if you don't know that what you are saying is a lie, somebody else is doing your typing for you because your abilities don't extend to that.

[logjon]

100. yes, i'm insane

well what do you intend to say? she had no way of knowing the man meant her harm, so her actions were unjustified. the alternative to her actions would be to try to run away (good luck) or wait and see what happens. is there some option i'm missing here? please, enlighten me.

[iverglas]

103. well, I wouldn't know

But you seem to be perfectly incapable of deriving meaning from words.

Given that we know this, how about you stop putting meanings in my words that aren't there?

Nothing in that post represents anything I have said or think. So just stop. Stop presenting interpretations of my words, and stop pretending to channel my thoughts. Life will be easier for everyone.

[logjon]

104. speaking of meanings

you are clearly incapable of putting any meaning into words

[X_Digger]

5. Platitudes aren't the answer to platitudes.

I'm sorry, was there some signal in your noise?

[PavePusher]

6. O.K., a question for you...

Are you a fool, or just a garden variety idiot?

[proteus_lives]

8. Sometimes the answer is violence.

Are you a complete pacifist?

Would you not defend yourself or your loved ones?

What is wrong with self-defense?

Please respond.

[alittlelark]

10. I understand your viewpoint.

I was the victim of a nasty gun related crime. I took a class in firearms from our local police force (because they scared me so much). I took self defense classes.



That was 20+ years ago.

I am still grateful the classes were available.

In order to disempower gun criminals one must have knowledge of their game.

[Artie Bucco]

14. The greatest American socialist Eugene V. Debs said

"The Constitution of the United States guarantees to you the right to bear arms...You have the unquestioned right, under the law, to defend your life and protect the sanctity of your fireside. Failing in either, you are a coward and a craven and undeserving of the name of man."

[OttavaKarhu]

28. Remember Ludlow and ER

http://www.liberalswithguns.com/
http://www.liberalswithguns.com/id2.html

[iverglas]

45. can you, like, cite a source for that Debs quotation

I mean, other than some right-wing asshole's sig line on the internet?

Maybe genuine, maybe not. How am I to know? Whether I'd care is another matter, but first I gotta know whether there's anything to care about.

[taurus145]

15. Are you insane?

Try repeating, "Nice puppy," the next time you are, or see someone being, attacked by a vicious dog.

Betcha won;t hesitate to grab anything handy to beat a dog with his jaws clamped in your butt. Or do you simply plan to end your days as a doggy treat?

Let's put it on a simpler plane: Try saying, "No! Stop!," to a mugger or rapist. See how far that get you.

[reggie the dog]

20. exactly

saying "freeze asshole or I will put a hole in your head" will work much better against a rapist, with a gun pointed mind you, than saying "please don"t hurt me"......

[reggie the dog]

16. self defense is not violence

[paulsby]

78. it most definitely is violence

it's JUSTIFIED violence.

if i shoot somebody in self defense, that is, by definition, a violent act

hth

[taurus145]

21. Too typical

Post drivel and refuse to argue the point.

[benEzra]

22. If anyone ever tries to hurt you, don't call the police, then.

Paying people to commit or threaten justifiable violence on your behalf is no different than doing so yourself, from a moral standpoint. If you really believe the use of force, or the threat thereof, is morally wrong, don't call on someone else to do it for you.

[DonP]

23. Oh goodie - a pro rapist POV?

So women that choose to learn to defend themselves from assault are "disgusting" to you. Women that submit therefore, must be doing the right thing.

Right!

Well, thank you for letting us all know which side you're on.

No guns for women who choose to protect themselves and their children because they're "disgusting".

Nice bunch of people you support.

[iverglas]

43. oh goodie, another piece of filthy misrepresentation

It's so nice to visit here.

[Euromutt]

25. Violence is AN answer to violence, and often it's the most viable option

The thing that people who trot out the old "two wrongs don't make a right" platitude tend to overlook is that one wrong doesn't make a right either. Even if you consider the use of countervailing force to be a "wrong," it is definitely the lesser of two evils, because when you fail to respond effectively to the initial wrong, it all too often encourages the wrongdoer to just keep on doing more wrong.

Could Nazi German, Fascist Italian and imperialist Japanese expansionism in the 1930s and 1940s have been halted without resorting to violence? I really don't see it. If the Japanese had made it to India (as they very nearly did), Mohandas Gandhi would have ended his life tied to a stake and used as a live target for bayonet practice by Japanese troops.

Successive peace plans didn't end the wars of Serb expansionism in the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s. What ended them was use of an amount of force--by the Croatian government, the Bosnian government, and NATO--that the Serbs knew they couldn't match. What brought the Serbs to the negotiating table ready to negotiate rather than demand the submission of the other parties was violence, and plenty of it.

Okay, countervailing violence may not be a permanent solution--the bully has to be rehabilitated--but it is generally the only way to stop him and make him receptive to reason. Antonio Cassese, the first president of the UN International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, very rightly observed that "peace without justice is no peace at all," and all too often, violence is the only way to make the unjust accept justice.

[OttavaKarhu]

26. Yeah. Women refusing to be prey are disgusting alright.

[iverglas]

59. Actually, men assaulting women is disgusting

Exactly how is Woman A shoving a gun in her purse when she goes to work going to protect Woman B, who may work in a school or have a conviction for cheque-kiting, or have endured years of physical and psychological abuse at the hands of a partner and have no resources to leave, let alone buy a fucking gun? How is it going to protect the woman herself if the man intent on attacking her doesn't happen to announce his intentions from a distance?

How did this individual's little woman's actions protect the woman whom the man in issue quite foreseeably went on to attack at a later date, having learned the lesson that things are not always what they seem, and a slight adjustment in technique will be needed?

If I'd been wised up to the ways of men 35 years ago, I might not have been in the situation I was in. Stupid me. But that wouldn't have stopped him, I think we all know. He was looking. Two days before he'd found two 15-yr-old girls. Gonna give them guns, are we? How about we just lock them up and let them out to go from the front door the school bus and back home? We could see how it worked in Afghanistan; might be a good system to keep MEN FROM ATTACKING WOMEN.

Men refusing to attack women would be a really un-disgusting thing to see.

Men refusing to tolerate behaviours and attitudes and actions that harm women, on the part of men within their own circle of acquaintances, from the companies trying to sell them goods and services, from the politicians wanting their votes, would be a nice start even.

[GreenStormCloud]

63. How does disarming Woman A help Woman B?

I completely agree that male predators should not be tolerated by society. Lock them up.

[friendly_iconoclast]

67. It doesn't

Work to change society, but the option should be there for those women who choose to arm themselves to do so.

And who's to say some thug getting an unpleasant and possibly lethal surprise from what he thought was an easy victim isn't a positive good?

Pour encourager les autres, and all that...

[SteveM]

29. So much or our "non-violent" advocacy stems from a miss-reading of Gandhi

Let's hear what he has to say:

"Non-violence cannot be taught to a person who fears to die and has no power of resistance. A helpless mouse is not non-violent because he is always eaten by pussy. He would gladly eat the murderess if he could, but he ever tries to glee from her. We do not call him a coward, because he is made by nature to behave no better than he does. But a man who, when faced by danger, behaves like a mouse, is rightly called a coward." -- The Mind of Mahatma Gandhi, compiled by R. K. Prabhu and U. R. Rao; pub by Oxford University Press, London, March, 1945.

[cowcommander]

7. Most surprising thing is it's here in California

Huh...and it's the same state that wants to ban all guns too...

[alittlelark]

11. Uh..... WTF are you talkin'

You are saying that CA wants to ban ALL guns????!?



I assume you are just high or something......


If so - send me a link - I could use something that good when I need to sleep.

[cowcommander]

12. Oh, it's more of a people thing

You'll meet more than enough people here in California who have no problem with a total gun ban.

[alittlelark]

13. I live in one of the most liberal areas of CA

We own A LOT of guns - some collect for profit - some collect for paranoia ( scary irons )- some just have them for the hell of it.


The ones that just have them 'for the hell of it' are at the range at least once a month.


I had a 'dead on' shot last time I was there.







We peaceniks are seemingly prepared.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

40. There are plenty of people everywhere that don't support civil rights.

[benEzra]

24. Many of the wealthy elites who run the state would like to restrict guns to elites only...

don't forget that Ronald Reagan signed the Mulford Act (making him the most anti-gun governor in the USA at that time) in order to keep guns out of the hands of "those people."

That doesn't mean that everyone in the whole state feels that way. California has quite a sport shooting and self-defense culture, even if they have to put up with some of the most asinine gun laws in the United States.

[OttavaKarhu]

27. Women with guns? This is so clearly wrong!!!

Don't women know that it is far more moral and womanly and goddesslike and politically correct to be stalked and battered and raped and murdered at the whim of ANYONE at ANY TIME who decides to make them prey...

...than to fight back and incisively win?


http://www.corneredcat.com
http://www.americangunculturereport.com/

[iverglas]

42. Well, something's clearly wrong

I'd say it's somebody once again citing the disgusting "corneredcat" outfit. (Christ almighty, is calling women "ladies" and "cats" actually supposed to be indicative of enlightened concern about women's interests?)

A fan of South African ultrarightwing racists and their wives, are you?

http://www.corneredcat.com/Ethics/mrsdutoit.aspx

There's no just shame in some quarters.

[JonQ]

37. Um .. . something about penis envy?

[iverglas]

41. doog dog

Manteca Sportsmen's Club
Ladies' Pistol I


:puke:

Just :puke:

'Cause res ipsa loquitur.

[iverglas]

49. Sexual Assault Prevention Tips Guaranteed to Work - finally!!

http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2009/12/06/i-got-yer-rape-prevention-email-forward-right-here/

1. Don’t put drugs in women’s drinks.

2. When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.

3. If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to assault her.

4. If you are in a lift and a woman gets in, don’t assault her. You know what? Don’t even ogle her.

5. When you encounter a woman who is asleep, the safest course of action is to not assault her.

6. Never creep into a woman’s home through an unlocked door or window, or spring out at her from between parked cars.

7. When you lurk in bushes and doorways with criminal intentions, always wear bright clothing, wave a flashlight, or play “Boys Who Rape (Should All Be Destroyed)” by the Raveonettes on a boombox really loud, so women in the vicinity will know where to aim their flamethrowers.

8. USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM! If it is inconvenient for you to stop yourself from assaulting women, ask a trusted feminist friend to accompany you when in public.

9. Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to assault a woman, you can hand the whistle to your buddy, so s/he can blow it to call for help.

10. Give your buddy a revolver, so that when indifferent passers-by ignore the rape whistle, s/he can pistol-whip you.

Don’t forget: Honesty is the best policy. When asking a woman out on a date, don’t pretend that you are interested in her as a person; tell her that you expect to be assaulting her later. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the woman may take that as a sign that you do not plan to rape her.

There. That should do it.

[iverglas]

57. I can feel the breeze

from all the lips moving as they read carefully through it.

I can see the glimmer on the horizon as light begins to dawn.

I can hear the distant murmur as a million male voices begin to rise in a chorus of "Never again!"

I can feel the rumble of the pavement as women come out of their houses and condos and offices and SUVs and start walking in the public spaces of the world, peace and comfort in their faces and their stride.

All because the men of the world united and TOOK RESPONSIBILITY. Stopped telling women what they must do to avoid being attacked BY MEN. Stopped trying to sucker women into the same foul mess that endangered them in the first place as the way to escape the danger. Stopped shirking and tolerating and perpetuating and excusing, and TOOK RESPONSIBILITY.

If women need safety from men, how about you all try being men, and taking responsibility for men's violence? Handing the little lady a gun just doesn't cut it, and is no more than proof of how little of a flying fuck you actually give.




typos, typos

[PavePusher]

60. Wow. How many of the men here do you think attack women?

More vile putrid filth from a nattering ninny. Whodathunkit.

[iverglas]

61. let's try the question that actually matters

How many women here have been attacked by a man?

It's a funny thing how the numbers just kinda won't add up.

Could well be that the men who attack women don't post at DU. Could well be.

So what are you going to do about them? What have you ever done about them? What shit do you actually give?

[ThomCat]

64. You call that putrid filth?

I call that a really great article that guys should be spreading so that WE are doing OUR part to prevent the epidemic of rape and sexual assault.

You and I aren't the one's committing the crimes, but men out there are and we have no way of knowing if we know one of them. Men can influence men more easily than women can influence men.

[friendly_iconoclast]

66. Somewhat slacktivist, and about as effective as the "Coexist" bumperstickers

IOW, the men who read and understand the article probably aren't assaulting women, and the men who do would just snicker
at it if they even bothered to read it.

Still, anything that promotes intolerance for that sort of violence is to be applauded, and for those MCPers who
*really* don't get the message, several rounds to the center of mass is always an option for those women who choose to protect themselves in such a manner.

[GreenStormCloud]

68. Giving a woman a gun is a recognition of reality.

I can, and do, take responsibility for and control of my own actions. I can't control the actions of another male. He will make his own choices. A gun in the hands of a woman gives her the physical ability to make her "NO" be heard and understood by a male predator.

When we can all dance with fairies at the end of the rainbow, then she can put her gun aside, and not before.

[iverglas]

71. damn

In every other situation, it's "root causes! root causes! root causes!"

Never mind the guns that people are getting robbed and maimed and killed with.

Go after those "root causes!!!!"

Not here, though ...

[Piwi2009]

82. " a gun gives her the physical ability to be heard"

I think what might be rankling some women is - it can sound like victim-blaming. Saying "If you had only had a gun, you might not have been raped," smacks a lot of "if you only worn modest clothing," or "if you had only not been by yourself late at night." It's got an undertone of "you were stupid," and they feel, women go down that road enough already, beating themselves up and thinking "if only, if only."

I can see the point, but I can't help cheering for some woman who blows an intruder away, and thinking ATTAGIRL, and I'd bet some rape victims do too.

[GreenStormCloud]

84. Regretfully, it can sound like that.

But so does all advice that is aimed at teaching how not to be a victim.

[Piwi2009]

85. This one's constant association of gun ownership with rightwing racism

is very telling-- that women/liberals owning guns will turn you into one of those despicable people.

All over the internet today, is a 911 recording of a lady in Oklahoma, whom I guess it's safe to assume, she really IS one of those rabid, rightwing DETHIPICABLE gun nuts, who blew an intruder away. Somehow even she doesn't sound like she's gloating or swaggering.

[iverglas]

86. "this one"?

Who's "this one", the cat's mother??

Oh, you guys. You have me in stitches.


This one's constant association of gun ownership with rightwing racism
is very telling-- that women/liberals owning guns will turn you into one of those despicable people.

Your own filthy falsehood is far more telling about you than anything you have to say about this one, trust me.

Don't like that? Prove the truth of your claim.

[Piwi2009]

91. I remember you now, you're the one who

gets all bent out of shape if you hear the word "lady," and go running off to the mods to get the poster banned. Hell if that pisses you off that much, imagine someone breaking in your house!

I can only go by what I see and it's a regular litany of "right wing " "miscogynist" "patriarchal" blah blah blah.
We realize it's not easy to make the association between "left wing" "progressive" "feminist" and "gun owner," but we are working on it
and will surely succeed any day now.

[iverglas]

92. you obviously have made no impression on me

you're the one who
gets all bent out of shape if you hear the word "lady," and go running off to the mods to get the poster banned.

But hey, keep up the lies and attempts at character assassination and you might get a notice.

Nah, that would hardly distinguish you around here ...

Maybe you could do Barbra Streisand for us?


We realize it's not easy to make the association between "left wing" "progressive" "feminist" and "gun owner," but we are working on it
and will surely succeed any day now.

Who "we", white man?

Hahahahahaha.

[iverglas]

93. hahahahaha

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=252089&mesg_id=252812
http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=252089&mesg_id=252814

Man, had that one pegged, I did.

I see your act hasn't improved!

[Piwi2009]

96. ""i see your act hasn't improved""

I see my act wasn't BANNED. You're about as good as banning posters, as you are banning guns. LOL!

[iverglas]

97. that's some problem you've got yourself there

Can't say I have any idea what it is, but it seems to be some disorder that causes a person to keep spewing lies.

I mean, the only reason you'd refer to my lack of prowess at banning posters and the fact that you aren't banned would seem to be that you are alleging that I tried to have you banned. Perhaps your first clue would be that I had to google you to figure out who the fuck you were.

Since I have no authority to ban either posters or guns, then quite apart from any interest I might have in doing either, I would expect to find I was quite bad at both.

As to your plain allegation that I want to ban guns, well hoo doggie, you're just full of crap, aren't you?

I still wanna see your Barbra. Maybe a Liza? Do you wear a big wig while at the keyboard?


typos

[Piwi2009]

99. "plain allegation that I want to ban guns""

Oh, so you DON'T want to ban them. That's all I need to hear! I always say that too! - I want to grant responsible people wide latitute to own em, possess em, fondle em, defend themselves with them, whatever, and the ninny nannies will just have to live with it. I'm not about to tell that woman in Oklahoma she'd be better off if she had that list of "don't 's" instead of a gun
when the guy was crashing through the door.

[iverglas]

101. I'll bet you've figured it out

but just in case:

I don't give a flying fuck what you want, to hear or to tell or anything else.

I don't actually engage with socks. I do laugh at 'em though!

[Piwi2009]

105. Yep, I've figured it's a dangerous world out there and

empowering yourself is a good thing. I've had two relatives murdered, known a woman who shot a guy defending herself, had a guy come in my workplace start shooting and get killed, and hell I'm not even black!

(That was not a cheap laugh, it's a pretty well documented fact that blacks suffer violence out of all proportion to their numbers)

[Piwi2009]

107. "I do laugh at em though!"""

Not as hard as an armed guy laughs at a list of "Don't's", I'm sure!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

76. I promise you the next time I see a woman being raped I will kill the perpetrator.

[Piwi2009]

80. ""I will kill the perp"""

Thanks, much appreciated. Unless I get him first, LOL!

Years ago at my old workplace, a guy burst in and started shooting. Luckily the police stopped him - they got him right in the mustache! The police were there because it WAS the police station. I shudder to think if it had been a regular workplace full of defenseless women, he could've had all the fun he wanted. If that guy wasn't even afraid of the police, he's surenhell not gonna be chastened by a bunch of rules, "Don't shoot women."

It's not guaranteed that you'll get the perp or that a good outcome is guaranteed. All I know is a gun is a powerful tool on my side, and someone as small and non-strong as I am needs all the power I can get.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

83. I don't carry a gun but I will kill them.

[iverglas]

87. oh, no, not

"defenceless women" !!1!!11!!

I hope you stick around. I love female impersonators!

[Piwi2009]

90. "defenseless women"

Well, we girls in the office weren't totally defenseless. We all had our manifestos in hand and started reading to him "It's not nice to beat women" "Don't rape women" "Don't shoot women," but he and his gun kinda sneered at that.

[iverglas]

69. to put it in other words

-- for anyone you might know for whom the foregoing one might have been too abridged:

A lot has been said about how to prevent rape. Women should learn self-defense. Women should lock themselves in their houses after dark. Women shouldn't have long hair and women shouldn't wear short skirts. Women shouldn't leave drinks unattended. Fuck, they shouldn't dare to get drunk at all.

Instead of that bullshit, how about:

If a woman is drunk, don't rape her. If a woman is walking alone at night, don't rape her. If a women is drugged and unconscious, don't rape her. If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don't rape her. If a woman is jogging in a park at 5AM, don't rape her. If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you're still hung up on, don't rape her. If a woman is asleep in her bed, don't rape her. If a woman is asleep in your bed, don't rape her. If a woman is doing her laundry, don't rape her. If a woman is in a coma, don't rape her. If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don't rape her. If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don't rape her. If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don't rape her. If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don't rape her. If your step-daughter is watching TV, don't rape her.

If you break into a house and find a woman there, don't rape her. If your friend thinks it's okay to rape someone, tell him it's not, and that he's not your friend. If your "friend" tells you he raped someone, report him to the police. If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there's an unconscious woman upstairs and it's your turn, don't rape her, call the police and report him as a rapist.

Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, and sons of friends that it's not okay to rape someone.

Don't just tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape. Don't imply that she could have avoided it if she'd only done/not done x, y, or z. Don't imply that it's in any way her fault. Don't let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he "got some" with the drunk girl. Don't perpetuate a culture that tells you that you have no control over or responsibility for your actions. You can too help yourself. Rape is not about sex, it's about control and power, and what kind of power comes from taking advantage of others? No power anyone should ever desire.

Hey, how about it, eh?

[GreenStormCloud]

72. The gun empowers the woman RIGHT NOW.

She doesn't have to wait until all men are peaceful so she can be safe.

[Piwi2009]

102. ""the gun empowers the woman RIGHT NOW"

Yep, for the lady in Cushing, Oklahoma her RIGHT NOW came up pretty suddenly. The police were some 30 minutes away - even when you tell 'em you've got donuts.

[Merchant Marine]

77. I understand now

You've combined the naieve utopian worldview of the feminist with the naieve utopian worldview of the gun control advocate for double crazy. This explains most of your posting.

[Piwi2009]

81. ""Naive worldview of the feminist"

"Anything you can do, I can do better," hell I don't see why this couldn't apply to guns, too. Women, being superior creatures, know the proper way to handle/own/shoot/otherwise deal with guns and will have to teach you men ::spit::: and enlighten you.
(lol)
I see no reason why the most rabid, spitting stereotype feminist couldn't be a gunowner too.

[iverglas]

88. heck, I'll bet

I see no reason why the most rabid, spitting stereotype feminist couldn't be a gunowner too.

she is.

I mean, you fellas can decide for yourselves what those figments of your own imagination will get up to, can't you?

[logjon]

98. how about it

iverglas, you seem to be largely disconnected with reality. let me break it down for you. telling someone 'don't do that' doesn't make said 'that' cease to happen. your utopia doesn't exist. there are, and always will be, people out to do bad things. you seem to think simply saying 'don't' is enough to make that not happen. you also seem to have been sheltered from violent crime. ever seen a defenseless 'faggot' get beaten within an inch of his life, outnumbered 4:1, for being gay? ever had your head kicked for sticking up for a 'faggot' in a situation like that? ever known a rape victim? they'll tend to tell you that despite their saying 'don't do that' they got raped anyway.

of course not. you're clearly sheltered from that, believing that nobody in their right mind would need to defend themselves from something like that. all they have to say is 'that's not nice' and the act will cease to exist anywhere on the planet.

btw, if you find my use of the word 'faggot' offensive, keep in mind that it's what i've heard whenever i've witnessed the bashings. it's also what i was called while i was getting my own head kicked in for sticking up for the fella. got a couple licks in, but 4:2 aren't especially good odds, especially when one of the 2 is unable to fight for himself. but in your eyes i'm probably just another misogynistic yankee hillbilly, so eager to kill with my death machines that have somehow never harmed a human being, and a waste of human life for reacting violently. after all, i didn't have a crystal ball to tell me that his head would have been kicked around instead of mine had i not intervened.

tl;dr for the love of god, stay in canada

[iverglas]

106. listen, what the fuck is the matter with you?

let me break it down for you. telling someone 'don't do that' doesn't make said 'that' cease to happen.

I'm not actually stupid, and I didn't actually say or imply or think or whisper what you are claiming I did.

If you're so stupid you think I did, this is not my problem.

So just back away slowly and go away, okay?


you seem to think simply saying 'don't' is enough to make that not happen.

You seem to be saying that I am very stupid. To need this kind of gibberish instruction from you, one would really have to be.


you also seem to have been sheltered from violent crime.

You seem to be an ignorant jerk and bent on proving it. You insulting, obnoxious, presumptuous boor.


I have to go look at snow or something. The idea of sharing air with such as you has just about done me in.

[logjon]

108. while you're at it

go ahead and google a young lady who goes by the handle 'bitingbeaver'

i'm sure she could give you some tips on making men out to be evil. she could probably even make us out to be the ones keeping women out of the board room and off the streets and at the same time the evil bastards who teach them how to properly use tools to defend themselves and indoctrinate them for our own self-serving gun related wants. says little of women if they can be so easily indoctrinated, eh?

as for the matter with me, it's ignorance. it's the mouth-foaming garbage you continually spew, continually waffle on that continually says absolutely nothing of substance. it's the feminist, utopian, idealist crap floating around in your brain from which you constantly fail to produce a meaningful thought.

you've brainwashed yourself.

Just exactly the kind of bullshit patriarchal propaganda that's been used for centuries to keep women off the streets (and out of the factories, and the boardrooms), and now is being used to get them hooked up to the gun militant tentacle of the ugly right wing trying to suck up all the air in the land.

[iverglas]

113. "continually"?

You seem to "know" an awful lot for somebody with 37 posts who signed up at a time when I was not posting in this forum.


the evil bastards who teach them how to properly use tools to defend themselves and indoctrinate them for our own self-serving gun related wants

You got that right. Gun militants are indeed evil bastards.


you've brainwashed yourself

You addressed an individual who has been the victim of a near-death-inducing violent/sexual crime (consisting of multiple crimes within the short time frame in question, including the crimes of abduction, choking, and rape (as it was then known in Canada)) (in addition to the various minor assault sort of things that women all get to experience at the hands of men in a lifetime) by telling her she had never experienced violent crime, had been sheltered from it, yada yada blah fucking blah. You made a deliberate effort to DISCREDIT A WOMAN based on nothing but your own profound ignorance of and contempt for that woman.

Here's a clue. You start by assuming that EVERY WOMAN YOU ENCOUNTER has been the victim of sexual or other violence at the hands of a man or men. You won't go far wrong that way. But you can always consider ASKING THE PERSON YOU ARE ADDRESSING if you think the answer is relevant to something under discussion (in which case you might meet with disagreement).

Talk about being fucking brainwashed. Your gun militancy has evidently cancelled out any shred of human decency you might have had.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

116. "your bullshit" is right

you decry women learning self defense.

I have done no such thing. Your allegation is false and you know it, unless you're unspeakably stupid.

you think a list of "don'ts" is a rational alternative.

I think no such thing. Your allegation is beyond false, it is moronic.

you would be the first rape victim i've ever talked to that was "oh so glad" at the lack of a means to defend yourself.

And your false allegations just get stupider and more moronic.

I see some more rabid foaming froth after them, but it would be too much effort to try to decipher it. I think I can safely say that it's just more false, stupid, moronic bullshit.

I see no prospect of decent behaviour from you. I strongly suggest you avoid replying to my posts in future -- a suggestion that includes commentary on them or me in the third person. Go read yourself some rules.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[logjon]

110. I like my gun club better

we indoctrinate women so they'll serve our gun-loving needs, even though we don't let them have any money of their own and we discourage them from voting, because, as men, we feel that women shouldn't vote. or leave the house.

[Piwi2009]

111. There's that "patriarchy white male rightwing racist stuff again"

I TOLD you, we leftist, progressive screeching feminists are working on that. Nothing will piss off the righties worse than seeing US swimming in guns, they were so sure we never would.

[iverglas]

114. more chuckles

Out of an excess of caution, I shall reproduce the post I'm responding to, since it might not be visible later.


I hear there's a "North Star Gay and Lesbian Gun Club"

And there's more to come, I hope. Darn, I'm just sorry they don't call themselves "The Sissy/Pansy Uzi Club," to really throw the homophobes off course, but can't have everything.

Yes, hahaha.

http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/article/2009/07/05/here-queer-and-without-fear-gays-and-lesbians-lock-and-load-self-defense.html

The North Star Gay and Lesbian Gun Club, an offshoot of the Pink Pistols, ...

... Odden said that the Pink Pistols were often not very well accepted by the GLBTQ community. “I remember we weren’t fully welcomed,” he said. The group set up a booth at the Pride Festival, and received jeers and dirty looks. “We didn’t get a chance to really explain ourselves,” he said. On the other hand, he said the straight shooters who the group met at the ranges “were really helpful…I was very amazed at how straight community backed us.”

Yes, it is so very amazing, and I have often expressed that amazement in these very pages, that an arm of the ultra-right-wing Loonytarian Party would be scorned by the gay and lesbian community and embraced by gun militants (not that everyone at a shooting range is a gun militant, by any means, but heck, they'd all still have more in common with Pink Pistoliers just by virtue of having a gun in their hands than anybody in the GLBT community would). Just an amazement.


The only thing scarier than that would be the "PMS Feminazi Gun Club." Just give us time, LOL!

The question just keeps springing to mind (in the voice of Redd Foxx speaking as Tonto, of course): Who 'we', white man??

[iverglas]

51. wrong place ... n/t

[Piwi2009]

94. The classes are great.

$10, that's great - it cost me $20 back in 1995 grrr. I learned on my dad's Ruger. Ladies, take a class and empower yourselves. Maybe you'll never need it, but you don't decide if you're never gonna be attacked, the criminal element decides for you, and why would you attribute any humanity to them?

[Piwi2009]

112. Remember, ladies, take the classes,

inform yourself, fight for your rights, and make a big donation to the NRA in Sarah Brady's name!