Happy Thanksgiving! shootings

[struggle4progress]

FAMILY

4 dead, 1 injured during Thanksgiving shooting
By SONJA ISGER AND BILL DIPAOLO
PALM BEACH POST
Four people, including a 6-year-old girl, are dead and another is in the hospital after police say a man opened fire on his relatives as they gathered for a Thanskgiving Day feast in Jupiter last evening ... http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking-news/story/1353760.html

Step-father allegedly shoots step-son on Thanksgiving
KSLA News 12
BOWIE COUNTY, TX (KSLA) – A man is in custody on this Thanksgiving holiday after allegedly shooting his stepson in the stomach. It happened in Bowie County on County Road 4202. Sheriff's deputies say that the two had been drinking all day, and the shooting took place after some sort of dispute ... http://www.ksla.com/Global/story.asp?S=11579153

Thanksgiving Day argument leads to violence
written by: Randy Barber
written by: Tim Ryan
EL PASO COUNTY - A 76 year old man is in custody after police say he shot and killed his son in an argument over chores ... http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=127794&catid=339

Thanksgiving Shooting Leaves One Man Dead
By Maggie Wade
JACKSON, MS (WLBT) - An argument turned deadly on Thanksgiving day. One man is dead two people injured after a shooting at a Jackson apartment complex. It happened shortly after five at the Ridgeway Apartments on Raymond Road. Family members say the gun shots started after a domestic dispute ... http://www.wlbt.com/Global/story.asp?S=11579145

Father kills son after dispute in Security-Widefield, official says
A man shot and killed his adult son Thanksgiving afternoon after a family argument at a home in the Security-Widefield area. Ayalis Oliver, 76, was arrested after allegedly shooting 49-year-old Keith Oliver of Denver in the head, said Lt. Lari Sevene El Paso County Sheriff’s Office spokeswoman. Sevene said she did not know what the argument was over ... http://www.gazette.com/articles/sheriff-89930-security-area.html

Cousin Shoots Cousin at Thanksgiving Dinner
Comments 0 | Recommend 0
November 26, 2009 6:13 PM
Dan Lehr
NewsChannel 9 is on the scene of an apparent Thanksgiving dinner turned violent in Chattanooga. From an e-mail sent to us by the Chattanooga Police Department: "Chattanooga Police are on the scene of a domestic related shooting at 203 Spring Creek Road that occurred at 5:25 p.m. today. According to initial officers on the scene, the resident, Larry Duff, age 56, shot his cousin Lee Stiles, also age 56, in the lower left abdomen. At this time it is unclear what sparked this incident" ... http://www.newschannel9.com/news/chattanooga-986716-police-dinner.html

OTHER DISPUTES

Man shot after fight in Davenport
An argument outside a house in the 1000 block of Arlington Avenue in Davenport on Thanksgiving night ended up with a 20-year-old man shot in the buttocks. According to police, the victim, who police did not identify, was outside talking with friends shortly before 7 p.m. Thursday. A van drove up and two men got out and got into a confrontation with the victim and his two friends, police said. During the fight, the victim was shot, and the two men from the van fled the scene. The victim was transported to Genesis Medical Center .. where he was treated for a gun shot wound ... http://www.qctimes.com/news/local/article_f300b804-db02-11de-838c-001cc4c002e0.html

Friday, November 27, 2009
BR man surrenders in slaying
Suspect sought in unrelated shooting
* By KATIE KENNEDY
... Jones, 36, 4048 Topeka St., was one of two people shot to death in separate incidents in the early hours of the Thanksgiving Day holidays. Police said Willie Dunn Jr., 41, 5707 Atlanta Ave., shot Jones in the head in the parking lot of The Dancers Club around 10 p.m. after an argument inside the club ... The body of Thursday’s other victim, Donald Young Jr., 27, 6782 Rembrandt Ave., was found shot to death on the side of the street in the 9700 block of Avenue M at 4:45 a.m., Baton Rouge Police Department Sgt. Don Kelly said. Witnesses told police they heard shots fired in the area about 4 a.m., Kelly said. There are no suspects ... http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/suburban/75475642.html

BYSTANDER

Shots Outside Wilm Nightclub
By John Lewis
A Thanksgiving Day spent in the hospital for a man who was shot, police callimg him an "innocent bystander." It happened early Thursday morning at a South Market Street bar, The Gold Club, where bouncers refused to let two men in. There were words, then a scuffle ... http://www.wdel.com/story.php?id=593768076304

Bystanders among victims in triple shooting
Thursday, November 26, 2009
BRONX (WABC) -- A wild shootout in the Bronx on Thanksgiving night left three people shot. Two of them, police say, were innocent bystanders. The shooting happened tonight near East Fordham Road in the Fordham section. Police say gunmen opened fire on a man in front of a florist shop. Two people who worked in the shop were hit in the barrage of bullets ... http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=7141465

ROBBERY

Store Clerk Shot and Killed on Thanksgiving
Police search for 3 suspects in deadly shooting
Cleveland Police are looking for 3 men after a shooting turned deadly at E 93rd Street and Dickens Avenue in Cleveland. Store clerk Moussa Salti, 34, of Strongsville, was shot and killed while working this Thanksgiving ... Police say three men entered the store wearing hooded- sweatshirts and masks, at least one was armed ... http://www.newsnet5.com/news/21735473/detail.html

Two South Side restaurants robbed, five shot
November 26, 2009
BY MIKE LANSU Staff Reporter
Five people were shot during two apparently unrelated armed robberies at South Side restaurants early Thanksgiving Day. A fifth person was battered ... http://www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/1906415,two-restaurants-robbed-102609.article

Couple shot to death; children left unharmed
BY BRENT D. WISTROM - The Wichita Eagle
Wichita police found a man and woman in their mid-20s shot to death and two young children wandering around Thursday in a house near Central and Hillside. Police are investigating the shootings as "some type of robbery," Capt. Jeff Easter said ... http://www.kentucky.com/216/story/1036334.html

DRUGS

Metro: Man Killed In Drug Deal Gone Wrong
Police Looking For Man Who They Say Is Armed, Dangerous
POSTED: 2:59 pm PST November 26, 2009
UPDATED: 3:40 pm PST November 26, 2009
LAS VEGAS -- The body of a man who was shot to death was found Thanksgiving Day in a vehicle on Craig Road near Tenaya Way in what police said was a drug deal that went bad. Metro police spokesman Lt. Lew Roberts said a man shot multiple times into the victim's vehicle. The victim tried to drive away, hit a tree and flipped his vehicle ... http://www.fox5vegas.com/news/21734427/detail.html

OTHER

Deaf woman murdered in Albany
By Christian Jennings
ALBANY, GA (WALB) – An Albany woman was shot in the back and left for dead this Thanksgiving. A driver and passenger called 911 after spotting the woman bleeding lying next to dumpster on South McKinley Street around 5:30 Thursday morning. She was rushed to the hospital where she later died. Thursday afternoon we spoke with neighbors who heard the gunshots, and the woman's family who want justice and answers. 45-year-old Gayle Jackson was deaf and couldn't speak. Her family can't figure out why anyone would want to kill her ... http://www.walb.com/Global/story.asp?S=11578736

Man Shot in His Own Home Thanksgiving Morning
A Fresno man was transported to the hospital on Thanksgiving morning, after being shot in his own home. The shooting happened on Barton Avenue, near Cedar and Church. Police told KMPH the man heard knocking at his door around 8:00 Thursday morning, and when he opened the door, someone opened fire on him. The homeowner sustained injuries to his hand ... http://www.kmph.com/Global/story.asp?S=11577820

Two Bowie County Shootings on Thanksgiving
Thursday, Nov 26, 2009 @10:01pm CST
Two shootings on Thanksgiving night in Bowie County ... The second happened around 6:30 p.m. The Bowie County Sheriff's office says a man entered a couple's home and began firing shots. The couple got out safely and called police. When authorities got there, gun fire was exchanged. The suspect, whose identity is not being released at this time, was shot in the leg and underwent surgery. http://arklatexhomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=85202

Triple Shooting In DC On Thanksgiving Morning
WASHINGTON (WUSA) - Three men were shot, and one later died, in a shooting in northwest DC early Thanksgiving morning. Officials tell 9 NEWS NOW police were alerted to the sounds of gunshots that were detected by the ShotSpotter monitoring system. Police responded to the incident shortly before 6:00 a.m. in the 700 block of Harvard Street, near Sherman Avenue. Police located three victims, described as Latino men, who were transported by DC Fire-EMS personnell to local hospitals for treatment. One of the victims died about an hour later. He was identified as Jose Rene Rodriguez Guterrez, 31, of the 3600 block of 16th St NW. Police spokeswoman Helen Crump told 9NEWS NOW that so far there is no word on the motive for the shooting, and no suspects in custody at this point ... http://www.wusa9.com/news/breaking/story.aspx?storyid=94239&catid=158

Nov 26, 2009 10:34 pm US/Central
Police Investigate If Teen's Death Was Accident
(WCCO) Officers were called to a home on Maryland Avenue near Interstate 35E just after 10:00 Thursday morning. When they arrived they found the 15-year-old dead from a gun shot wound. St. Paul Police are trying to determine if a teen's death was an accident or homicide. Officers were called to a home on Maryland Avenue near Interstate 35E just after 10:00 Thursday morning. When they arrived they found the 15-year-old dead from a gun shot wound. "On Thanksgiving, its horrible -- over something foolish. It's going to be a horrible day now and for the rest of their family's lives," said neighbor Justin Dittel. "It's confusing. I don't know why they would be playing with a gun, knowing that it's dangerous," said Stephanie Salazar who was friends with victim ... http://wcco.com/crime/shooting.st.paul.2.1336273.html

[cowcommander]

1. What's your point?

To look for all the bad news like that, you're trying too hard to piss people off. It's not going to change anyone's minds.

[NewMoonTherian]

2. It's an appeal to emotion.

The idea is to shock the reader with the number of shootings that occur every day. What Struggle hasn't taken into account is that this approach has been tried, failed, and ridden into the ground to the extent that it no longer has any impact on the debate at all.

[Tejas]

4. dancing in the blood, akin to anti-abortionists

You know, when they shove bloody dolls in the faces of expectant mothers on the street and so on. Guess we can call the police-blotter posters (such as the OP) anti-gun-nuts or anti-gun-loons, or maybe anti-gun-extremists.

Oh well, some people need to get a life and simply accept the US Constitution......or move.

[OttavaKarhu]

63. But then how would they score political points...

...by exploiting others' tragedies?

[struggle4progress]

27. It's a one day snapshot of who's taking bullets and under what circumstances: I did no selection,

other than a news report of somebody being shot on Thanksgiving day, for any reason

Some of these will probably be clarified by later news reports: for example, I might guess the guy who told police someone knocked on his door and shot him in the hand actually accidentally shot himself and was too embarrassed to admit that, since such false reports occur regularly

As expected, the big category in family violence, and (as another poster has remarked in the thread) one probably expects alcohol involvement in many of those cases

[Katya Mullethov]

3. I bet that took some time to compile

"Lulz" as the kids say .

[GreenStormCloud]

5. I wonder how many stabbings there were.

A quick google news of "stabbing", sorted by date of the news story, ten stories per page, had 19 pages (190 seperate stories) before they started having stories that were over 24 hours old.

NO, I didn't bother to read all of them. Too much work. I just checked the pages to find when the stories were more than one day old.

In fairness, I must admit a few of the headlines that I saw were for stories outside the U.S., but only a few were. With only occasional exception they were inside the U.S.

And that is just for stories that specifically used the word "stabbing" or "stabbed" or "stab" in the stories.

I switched the search term to "knifed" and loads of stories came up. Undoubtedly, some would be duplicates and some would be different entries.

So when are you going to start an anti-knife violence campaign? There seems to be much more knife violence than there is gun violence?

[slackmaster]

6. Or accidental electric carving knife injuries

I've always been scared of those things.

[struggle4progress]

30. Sorry, I couldn't find any Thanksgiving carving news stories, other than one written by The Spoof

the day before Thanksgiving:

New York Emergency Rooms Overwhelmed at Thanksgiving
Written by P.M. Wortham
Story written: 25 November 2009
http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s2i63925

[struggle4progress]

28. OK. Here are all the Thanksgiving stabbing stories I locate by the same criteria

FAMILY

Father stabbed to death in family fight
November 27, 2009
A family fight resulted in the death Thursday morning of Curtis Marshall, 66, of Pecan Street, at an apartment at 2715 Whites Creek Pike, a police report said. North Precinct officers responded to a 911 call from the apartment at 5:30 a.m. and found Marshall dead in the kitchen from multiple stab wounds police believe were inflicted by his daughter, Bonita Lobo, 42. Lobo was present when officers arrived and made statements implicating herself in the death but could not be interviewed in detail because she was intoxicated, the report said. No charges were expected to be placed against Lobo Thursday, but she was committed to a medical facility for psychological evaluation ... http://www.tennessean.com/article/20091127/NEWS03/911270350/1017/NEWS01

Canton woman accused of stabbing boyfriend
By Lori Monsewicz
CantonRep.com staff writer
Posted Nov 27, 2009 @ 07:55 AM
CANTON — A woman was arrested Thanksgiving night, accused of stabbing her boyfriend in the leg in their northeast Canton home. Maria L. Flowers, 27, of 2003 Alton Pl. NE, was also “intoxicated and extremely uncooperative with officers” when they arrested her at 8:45 p.m. Thursday at her home on a felonious assault charge, Stark County Jail records said. The jail records did not list her boyfriend’s condition, or say why police believe she stabbed him ... http://www.cantonrep.com/communities/canton/x730411966/Canton-woman-accused-of-stabbing-boyfriend

Suspect sought in Easton stabbing
By Staff reports
Fri Nov 27, 2009, 11:45 AM EST
Easton - Police are issuing a warrant a woman who allegedly stabbed her mother’s boyfriend on Thanksgiving, Nov. 26. Police responded to report a stabbing Thursday, Nov. 26 at 6:15 p.m. at 157 Prospect St., Apartment 8. On arrival police learned that Sheri Vazquez, 24, had allegedly stabbed her mother’s boyfriend, Glen Hardigan, 46 who also lives at the same address. She also allegedly threw the knife at Hardigan’s son, striking him in the abdomen but he was not injured. Hardigan was treated by Easton Fire Department paramedics and was not transported to the hospital and the injury was not serious, police said ... http://www.wickedlocal.com/easton/news/x1792914525/Suspect-sought-in-Easton-stabbing

Woman says boyfriend stabbed her
ASSOCIATED PRESS
Nov. 27, 2009, 12:24AM
CORPUS CHRISTI — A 29-year-old woman told police her boyfriend stabbed her during an argument over where to have Thanksgiving dinner. The woman said she argued with the 41-year-old man at a Corpus Christi apartment on Thursday afternoon. The man allegedly stabbed her in the left hand with a steak knife. The couple argued again after getting into a vehicle to go to the boyfriend's mother's house, police said. The man again allegedly stabbed the woman, this time in the inner left thigh. The man dropped the woman off at her grandmother's house. Medics treated the woman for minor injuries ... http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6741081.html

OTHER DISPUTE

Man stabbed after post-Thanksgiving gathering gets out of hand, police say
by KENS 5 Staff
Posted on November 27, 2009 at 8:36 AM
A man was stabbed late Thursday night in a fight that got out of hand. Police responded to the scene in the 1100 block of Bel Air around 10:30 p.m. They say the fight broke out among a group of men who were drinking, and that's when one man stabbed another several times. The victim was taken to University Hospital in critical condition ... http://www.kens5.com/news/Man-stabbed-after-post-Thanksgiving-gathering-gets-out-of-hand-76048982.html

Man dies in brawl over woman
The Salt Lake Tribune
Updated: 11/27/2009 12:00:21 AM MST
Police on Thursday arrested a man suspected of killing his girlfriend's ex-boyfriend in West Valley City. The victim, 41-year-old Steve J. Doolittle, lives across the street from his ex-girlfriend near 3600 South and 5450 West, said West Valley City police Lt. Mike Coleman. He had clashed in the past with her new boyfriend, 28-year-old Justin Guymon. "Every time he'd go over to visit with her, pick her up they would get into confrontations," Coleman said. On Thursday, Doolittle confronted Guymon as he left with his 27-year-old girlfriend. They fought, and Guymon stabbed Doolittle several times in the side and back, Coleman said ... http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13873911

Pa. man jailed in Thanksgiving sword stabbing
The Associated Press
AMBRIDGE, Pa. - A .. Pennsylvania man has been charged with attempted homicide after police say he used an 18-inch sword to stab a drunk white man who yelled racial slurs at his own dog and the suspect. Forty-four-year-old Vernon Bridges, of Ambridge, allegedly stabbed 48-year-old Ronald Book with an 18-inch blade concealed in a cane on Thanksgiving. Police say the blade went in Book's abdomen and came out his back. Book was in critical condition at UPMC Presbyterian hospital. Police say the stabbing happened after Bridges overheard Book, his neighbor, yelling racial slurs at the animal and Book's son , who is also white and had allegedly let the animal run free. Police say Book began yelling slurs at Bridges after he told Book to quiet down. It's not clear if Bridges has an attorney. Police say Bridges is claiming self-defense ... http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/state/pennsylvania/20091127_ap_pamanjailedinthanksgivingswordstabbing.html

ROBBERY

Man stabbed in the shoulder
By Christian Jennings
ALBANY, GA (WALB) – An Albany man was attacked and stabbed while walking to his car early Thursday morning. Police say 44-year-old Lonnie Evans was jumped by a group of guys at 2304 West Gordon Avenue. He believes they were trying to rob him. Evans was able to fight them off but not before one of the suspects stabbed him in the right shoulder. No arrests have been made. http://www.walb.com/Global/story.asp?S=11578746

[GreenStormCloud]

40. I found many more stabbing attacks than you did.

Here is what I found. All knife attacks were on Thanksgiving day. Since this is now Friday evening, it is a bit more difficult to find Thursday's stories as there are so many Friday stabbings that are now in the news.

Vail man arrested in stabbing of roommate.
By Howard Pankratz
The Denver Post
A Vail officer making what he thought was a routine traffic stop on Interstate 70 early today discovered that the motorist he pulled over had been stabbed.
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_13879926

Pa. man jailed in Thanksgiving sword stabbing
The Associated Press
AMBRIDGE, Pa. - A black western Pennsylvania man has been charged with attempted homicide after police say he used an 18-inch sword to stab a drunk white man who yelled racial slurs at his own dog and the suspect.
http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/state/pennsylvania/20091127_ap_pamanjailedinthanksgivingswordstabbing.html

Utica man stabbed to death
SENECA — Oconee Sheriff’s deputies are treating the early Friday morning death of a 53-year-old Utica community resident as a homicide
http://www.upstatetoday.com/news/2009/nov/27/utica-man-stabbed-death/

Boy arrested in friend's stabbing death
Mesa police arrested a 17-year-old boy on Thursday who police say admitted to stabbing his friend to death in a fight at an east Mesa apartment complex.
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/147711(My Note: The body was discovered at 1:30AM on Friday. It appears that he was killed on Thursday)

Boyfriend Sought In Thanksgiving Night Stabbing Death Of Girlfriend
THORNTON - Police in Thornton are asking anyone with information about a person of interest in the stabbing death of a woman Thanksgiving night.
http://www.krdo.com/Global/story.asp?S=11579454

Easton police searching for woman accused of stabbing man
EASTON - Police are looking for a 24-year-old woman who is alleged to have stabbed her mother’s boyfriend in the abdomen with a knife around 6:15 p.m. on Thursday.
http://www.wickedlocal.com/raynham/news/x441558618/Easton-police-searching-for-woman-accused-of-stabbing-man

Gilbert teen, 17, stabbed to death in fight at apartment
A fight between two teenage friends left a 17-year-old Gilbert boy dead outside a Mesa apartment complex early Thursday morning, police said.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/gilbert/articles/2009/11/27/20091127fight1127-ON.html

Police searching for two men accused of stabbing, robbing man on south side
Police are looking for two men suspected of robbing and stabbing a man on the south side.
http://www.kens5.com/news/Police-searching-for-two-men-accused-of-stabbing-robbing-man-on-south-side-76241832.html

Fitchburg police probing stabbing that left woman in critical condition
Fitchburg police said they are continuing to investigate a stabbing that took place Thursday sometime before it was reported at 7:28 p.m.
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime_and_courts/article_724529f0-db13-11de-8d2e-001cc4c002e0.html

Good Samaritan Helps Man Stabbed In Stomach
Stabbing Victim Was Walking To Hospital
PORTLAND, Ore. -- A stabbing victim was trying to walk to the hospital when a Good Samaritan stepped in and helped him.
Jeff Kopkin said the injured man stumbled toward him on the sidewalk at about 8:30 a.m. Thursday.
http://www.kptv.com/news/21738989/detail.html

That's more than you found, and I am still going through Friday's reports of Thursday's activity. There are dozens of more stories of stabbings and knife attacks but that is enough for this page.

[struggle4progress]

44. You found some I didn't

I had the Ambridge and Hardigan cases. You included the Niazi death twice.

[GreenStormCloud]

45. Here are a bunch more that I found.

Stabbing with sword follows racial slurs

A black man has been charged with attempted homicide after police say he used an 18-inch sword to stab a drunk white man who yelled racial slurs at his own dog and the suspect.

Forty-four-year-old Vernon Bridges, of Ambridge, allegedly stabbed 48-year-old Ronald Book with an 18-inch blade concealed in a cane yesterday. Police say the blade went in Mr. Book's abdomen and came out his back.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09331/1016746-100.stm





Alleged Thanksgiving stabbing ends with Anthony man airlifted to hospital
LAS CRUCES — A 37-year-old Anthony man was airlifted to University Medical Center of El Paso after a house guest allegedly took a knife to him late Thanksgiving night.
http://www.lcsun-news.com/las_cruces-news/ci_13878096




Man stabbed during Thanksgiving Day fight
SAN ANTONIO -- A fight on Thanksgiving Day landed a man in the hospital.
The man was stabbed several times when a fight broke out near Belair Drive and Lockhill Selma around 10:30 p.m. Thursday.
http://www.woai.com/news/local/story/Man-stabbed-during...




Thornton Police investigate stabbing death
THORNTON - Police are looking for the boyfriend of a homicide victim as a person of interest in her death
Thornton Police responded to a report of a stabbing in an apartment complex at 9189 Gale Blvd, near Thornton Parkway and Huron St., around 6 p.m. Thursday.
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=127796&c...




Couple's argument ends with man's stabbing
A domestic argument escalated into a stabbing that left a Tulsa man hospitalized Thursday morning.

Police allege that a man and woman were arguing at their home in the 100 block of South 91st East Avenue when she picked up a knife and stabbed him once in the abdomen.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=1...





Man stabbed in fight after argument involving mother
A 29-year-old man went to University Hospital in critical condition Thursday night after he was stabbed during a fight that originally started with his mother.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/75546567.ht...

That's enough. I still have dozens of hits left on google but I am tired and have proven my point. People are using knives on each other much more than they are using guns.

[struggle4progress]

47. You've now listed the Ambridge case twice, once in each of your posts. I already listed the

Belair Drive case. You've now listed the Thornton case twice, once in each of your posts. I listed the Hardigan case, and you've now listed it twice, once in each of your posts &c &c

[struggle4progress]

29. Some first impressions on Thanksgiving stabbings versus Thanksgiving shootings:

First, there appear to be fewer stabbings, as expected: a stabbing requires closer contact and more energy. Two of the family stabbings in my #28 are so minor that no hospitalization was required; this, of course, reflects an important difference between stabbings and shooting. Finally, in one of the stabbings, a self-defense claim was found; I did not find a self-defense claim in the shooting stories

[eqfan592]

31. Not much of a surprise.

Most DGU's don't get reported or recorded by the police, given the fact that more often than not simply showing the firearm is enough to deter most criminals. Sorry, but you still fail.

Also, you obviously are ignorant of the type of wound channels knives are able to create if you think a stab wound is automatically easier to survive than a bullet wound.

[struggle4progress]

33. Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_08.html

More than 2/3 of the 73+K homicides 2004-2008 are by firearm; about 1/2 of all are by handgun; less than 1/8 are by knife. There are about 40 homicides, 27 firearm homicides, about 20 handgun homicides, and about 5 knife homicides daily in that period

Knife vs. firearm homicide in UK & US
Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:28:48 -0700
Amnesty program takes aim at UK's ‘knife culture'
Rash of fatal stabbings prompts crackdown, calls for tougher laws
By César G. Soriano
USA TODAY
... Stabbings are the most common form of murder in Britain, where firearms — except certain shotguns and sporting rifles — are outlawed ... The murder rate in Britain is 15 per million people. The U.S. murder rate is 55 per million, according to the FBI ... http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/msg00867.html

It's much easier to injure someone seriously by gun than by knife

[eqfan592]

34. At range, yes.

But given that the vast majority of attacks happen at very close range, a person with a knife can be just as deadly as a person with a gun, if that person is truly intent on doing harm to another (which is usually the case when dealing with somebody trying to kill another person). And once again, you are ignoring DGU's completely. Which leads me to the next question; Did your homicide figures include justifiable homicides as well?

Lastly, the murder rate is not the entirety of a nations violent crime rate. The UK's violent crime rate is several times that of the US's.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

This is a huge blow to the argument that heavy restrictions on firearms and handgun bans will have a large, positive impact on a nations violent crime rate. You simply can't get around the fact that criminals don't give a rats hairy ass about the law. You are seeking to disarm would be victims, because you value a victims life more than the life of a gun owner who defends them self, even though there are statistically far more DGU's.

[slackmaster]

7. I nominate "Selected anecdotes without comment" genre as the least interesting kind of post on DU

People get shot every day. People use guns to defend themselves every day.

:boring:

[metalbot]

8. How many drunk driving deaths on the same day?

We could drastically reduce drunk driving deaths by instituting a mandatory federal prison sentence of 3 years for a first offense. That would put drunk driving punishments on par with current punishments for people who violate a federal firearms law. Or better yet, maybe we should ban drinking because some people do it irresponsibly? Wouldn't banning drinking do MORE to save lives than magically making all guns disappear?

[ensho]

11. hundreds? 1st DUI arrests aren't punished hard enough

2nd DUI arrest should take away driving license forever

[metalbot]

16. Got curious about DUI arrest statistics

...and did some cursory research.

"In 2007, 203,866 people were arrested in California for driving under the influence, up from 197,248 in 2006." (from CA gov website).

If we assume that police arrest 1 in 10 (which is probably absurdly high - true figures might be 1 in 100?), then you could have 2 million drunk drivers on the road in California along (granted, many will be repeat offenders). I'm willing to grant even that many of these people, while legally intoxicated, don't necessarily pose a huge risk to other drivers, but if we assume that 10% of them do, then there are 200,000 incidents each year in California in which people put other's lives at significant risk by getting behind the wheel.

Seriously, if you want to simply save lives (not just the lives of people who get murdered), wouldn't cracking down here be a far more effective than trying to further legislate gun control? But oddly enough, I don't think I've seen any posts on DU ever suggesting that prohibition is the answer. Guns? Get rid of them! No use! Designed to kill! Slaughtering our children! Alcohol? Uh...well...um...but I drink!

[Not Me]

9. I was going through the holiday ads in the paper on Thanksgiving

and there was one insert for a gun store...all done up in color with holly and Christmas motif.
Merry Christmas/get a Glock.
Flame on, but I found this offensive.

[eqfan592]

12. Explain why you find it offenseive, and maybe you won't get flamed. (nt)

[burrfoot]

13. Why? Are gun owners not allowed to celebrate Christmas? n/t

*Edit: Eqfan, you turd, you beat me to it by seconds! Happy black friday! :toast: **

[eqfan592]

15. lol, same to you!

My wife is out and about as we speak. I was thankfully allowed to stay home and relax!

:toast:

[benEzra]

18. Are you similarly offended by holiday alcohol ads?

If not, why not?

[slackmaster]

19. I too am interested to know why you found it offensive

What other things in the newspaper offended you?

[ensho]

10. bet alcohol was there in most of the shootings

NO to guns

[GreenStormCloud]

25. So you would leave people to the tender mercies of violent criminals? N/T

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

36. Hope about no to alcohol then we could take care of the DUIs too.

[eqfan592]

14. Wow, just think of all the actual good you could have been doing....

....in the time it took you to put all of that together. You're a very sad person, struggle4progress, and your name is truly ironic, given that right now you seem to be struggling for regression, ignorance, and futility.

[Tejas]

23. You'd have better luck shooting satellites out've the sky

with a 50BMG than finding a gun-grabber with a conscience.


I know, I know, you knew that :)

[eqfan592]

32. Struggle4peace fits that bill perfectly.

He/she literally bathes in the blood of the innocent, but is able to justify it because he/she feels his/her goal is a righteous one, and is also totally incapable of doing a rational cost/benefit analysis of the topic at hand. He/she also appears to support large amounts of restrictions on the 1st Amendment, judging by his/her posts in regards to the outlawing of militia groups and other groups who's behavior he/she deems to be "dangerous."

His/her views seem to be more in line with national socialism than with the modern progressive movement.

[struggle4progress]

37. Exactly which "Nationalist Socialist" policies are you accusing me of supporting?

[eqfan592]

38. Disarmament of the general population and the outlawing of certain groups...

...to peaceably assemble (and yes, it's peaceable until such time as they actually break a law, though you wish to get around this by simply outlawing them in general). These two are staples of classic national socialism.

Honestly, I'm willing to give folks a bit of a pass when it comes to firearms, simply because of the shockingly large amount of misinformation that gets put out there by certain organizations, but your desire to literally outlaw militia's? That's a dangerous line you crossed when you started promoting that.

[struggle4progress]

41. Of course, you cannot provide any links showing that I have advocated either

disarming the general population or outlawing the peaceable assembly of any group, as I have never advocated either of those policies

[struggle4progress]

42. Your understanding of early 20th century German firearms politics is sorely lacking:

... as a historical matter the passage of gun registration laws in Germany during the first part of the twentieth century is a complicated matter ... The Treaty of Versailles .. imposed severe gun restrictions on German citizens ... In January 1919, the Reichstag enacted legislation requiring the surrender of all guns to the government. This law ... remained in effect until 1928, when the German parliament enacted the Law on Firearms and Ammunition (April 12, 1928) — a law which relaxed gun restrictions and put into effect a strict firearm licensing scheme ... The history of gun control in Germany from the post-World War I period to the inception of World War II seems to be a history of declining, rather than increasing, gun control. The Weimar Republic gun laws of 1928 represented a liberalization of the draconian post-World War I prohibitions on gun possession. As noted earlier, in January 1919, the Reichstag passed a complete ban on the ownership of firearms, a ban which was in effect in Germany until the Weimar government enacted in 1928 the Law on Firearms and Ammunition of April 12, 1928. The 1919 ban — enacted as the Regulations of the Council of the People’s Delegates on Weapons Possession — provided that “All firearms, as well as all kinds of firearms ammunition, are to be surrendered immediately” ... Against this background, the Weimar 1928 Law on Firearms and Ammunition represented a significant liberalization, admittedly through regulation, of gun possession. The law put into effect a system of permits: it provided for the issuance of permits to own or transfer firearms, to carry firearms including handguns, to manufacture firearms, and to professionally deal in firearms and ammunition ... With regard to ordinary gun possession, as opposed to manufacture, the 1938 Nazi gun laws represented a further liberalization of gun control. In fact, most of the changes in the law with regard to possession and carrying reflected a loosening of the regulations, not a tightening. The Weapons Law of March 18, 1938, is patterned on the Law on Firearms and Ammunition of April 12, 1928. The two laws have the same structure, similar section headings, and broadly similar language ... In effect, the 1938 revision completely deregulated the acquisition and transfer of rifles and shotguns, as well as ammunition ... The 1938 law effectively extended the number of groups of people who were exempt from the acquisition permit requirement. Whereas the 1928 law exempted primarily “officials of the central government, the states, as well as the German Railways Company,” “business owners” dealing in guns, and holders of a “firearms carry permit,” the 1938 law included these exemptions, but extended them to include holders of “annual hunting permits,” as well as a larger group of government workers and Nazi party members. The effect of these changes meant that anyone with an annual hunting permit did not need a permit for the acquisition or transfer of any firearm, whether long gun or handgun. Moreover, an additional provision in the 1938 law states that “a hunting license entitles the holder to carry firearms and handguns,” suggesting that the hunting license also extends an exemption for handgun carrying ... A third revision lowered the age for the acquisition of firearms. Whereas the 1928 law did not allow acquisition or carry permits to issue to persons under 20 years of age, the 1938 law did not allow “juveniles under 18 years of age” to “buy” firearms .... So, for instance, whereas the 1928 implementing regulations required dealers to keep the book “until twenty years have elapsed after the date of the last entry,” the 1938 implementing regulations only required dealers to keep their books for ten years. Also, while the 1928 implementing regulations limited the number of guns and ammunition covered by the relevant permits, the 1938 implementing regulations did not contain any such limitation ...
PUBLIC LAW AND LEGAL THEORY WORKING PAPER NO. 67
ON GUN REGISTRATION, THE NRA, ADOLF HITLER, AND NAZI GUN LAWS: EXPLODING THE GUN CULTURE WARS
Bernard E. Harcourt
THE LAW SCHOOL THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO
June 2004
This paper can be downloaded without charge at http://www.law.uchicago.edu/academics/publiclaw/index.html and at The Social Science Research Network Electronic Paper Collection: http://ssrn.com/abstract_id=557183

[eqfan592]

43. Hmmm, looks like you may have me on that one.

However, you have failed to enumerate your full position on firearms control, other than to attempt to constantly promote a message that "firearms are bad." One can infer from this that you do not support private firearms ownership. You can easily clear this up by actually enumerating your position.

As for your position on peaceable assembly, the fact that you attempt to deny this now is laughable.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x270919

This is a very recent thread started by yourself.

[struggle4progress]

46. I posted a poll result and gave some narrow comments to various responses to the post.

If I ever see a bill that looks like it may pass and restricts mere peaceable assembly, I will scream loudly and effectively about it

But, after noting that the 1990s militia groups engaged in substantial fraudulent and illegal activity, I will not take the view that current law already covers absolutely everything that might appropriately be criminalized

[eqfan592]

48. Fair enough.

Have you stated what current activities they partake in that you feel should be criminalized? Also, you have failed to enumerate your position on firearms control again.

[eqfan592]

53. As I figured, no response. (nt)

[struggle4progress]

56. I don't want to get stuck in that particular rut

[Tejas]

49. HAHAHA, "narrow comments"

Are you perhaps in political office somewhere in this great country of ours?



“We will not fear our government; they will fear us,” <---- have a problem with that?

[struggle4progress]

51. I stopped thinking in slogans years ago, finding them uninformative. There was a time

when I had contempt for all politicians and ignored politics; later, I paid more attention; now I judge politicians individually, some disgusting me, others producing some admiration

You will not reach much understanding if you think in sweeping categories like "our government," since we actually have many different governments, and the largest are built of conflicting factions

[GreenStormCloud]

54. And it was shown to you that their activities are not, as a group, illegal.

They have the right to assemble. And they have the right, as long as they are on private property with the permission of the owner, and can do so without endangering the public, to shoot guns. You do want to restrict people's rights, unless they are exercising those rights for a political cause that you approve of.

And they have been around since the 1950s.

[struggle4progress]

55. If you want to discuss another thread, post in that thread

[GreenStormCloud]

58. You are the one who was talking about that thread before me.

I merely responded to what you said about it. If you can talk about that thread, so can I.

[struggle4progress]

59. I shoulda directed a prior poster to the other thread as well

[GreenStormCloud]

60. Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda. Well, you didn't. You continued that thread here, and I responded. N/T

[krispos42]

17. Okay, you're halfway there.

About 35 people a day are murdered, on average, with (not 'by') a gun in this nation of 300,000,000. You've found about half.

[spin]

20. A harder question is how many lives are saved by firearms...

everyday.

Many incidents where a firearm is used successfully to deter a life threatening attack never make the news.

Incidents in which shots are fired, especially in a store, become news worthy. Numerous other stories in which a homeowner uses a firearm to stop an intruder fail to make print unless someone is shot. "If it bleeds it leads".

Often in a situation in which the display of a firearm stopped an intruder, the homeowner calls the police and they respond. The intruder has fled. The police file a report and move on to the next call. No statistics are gathered on such incidents.

A gun is an inanimate object. It can be used for good and for bad.

[GreenStormCloud]

24. Or, how many lives could have been saved if the victim had been armed?

Yesterday one of our Thanksgiving guests told how he was almost murdered a few days ago. His eye was still black. The goblins had beaten our friend and robbed him. But he had gotten a good look at them, so they tied him up to take him somewhere else to kill him. They cut his bonds because they didn't want to carry him to their car trunk which was too far away and they didn't want to be seen carrying a bound up man. They were going to make him walk. He took the opportunity and ran, screaming for help as he did so. He managed to get away, and reported it to the police. No arrests so far.

If our friend had been armed, and alert to danger, he would have had a chance from the start.

[spin]

21. I'll recommend this post. I often recommend posts that show guns used successfully...

to deter crime.

There's two sides to the issue of firearms in our society. While I am pro-gun, I realize that firearms are often misused tragically.

And to be fair, the anti-gun side needs to realize that often firearms are used by civilians to deter crime.

[SteveM]

22. Why are you celebrating? Do you enjoy shootings? (nt)

[jeepnstein]

26. Yes, he does very much.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

52. SHE does.

[jeepnstein]

57. OK, She enjoys it very much.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

35. I hope the criminals who committed these acts are prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

[NYC_SKP]

39. Guns Don't Kill People. Thanksgiving Kills People.

I knew it, I just knew this holiday had a dark side.

:patriot:

[PavePusher]

61. Yeah, they really should enact a travel ban...

for the two weeks around T-day. Bet you'd see a major drop in homicides...

:toast: :rofl:

[chrisa]

50. It's a logical fallacy used by pro and anti-gunners.

"Here's so and so examples. They happened to involve a gun/knife, with a good/bad result, therefore support my position."

It's a purely utilitarian view of the issue, and therefore useless.

[Euromutt]

64. It's not necessarily fallacious, depending on the argument being made

The evidence is anecdotal, but if the argument is limited to "legally owned firearms are sometimes used to commit unlawful acts" or "legally owned firearms are sometimes used to prevent the completion of unlawful acts," then it's perfectly valid to cite at least one occurrence of such a thing happening.

Where you're perfectly correct, of course, is that such anecdotal evidence is worthless in establishing how often these events occur, especially compared to each other. I reckon only the most objectivity-challenged person on either side of the gun control debate would refuse to acknowledge that both types of event can and do occur (if they're honest, at least), but we can't rely on news reports to give us an idea of either absolute or relative frequency.

[proteus_lives]

62. Ok.

Now please explain why millions of law-abiding American gun-owners should lose their rights because of these cases.