Man defends doorbell, shoots kid

[safeinOhio]

http://freep.com/article/20091122/NEWS05/911220743/1322/Man-69-in-custody-after-teen-who-rang-doorbell-is-shot

Authorities say a 15-year-old boy who was ringing doorbells as a prank in Livingston County was shot by a 69-year-old man at one of the homes
Green Oak Township police said the boy and three other juveniles were ringing doorbells Friday night in the township when the man confronted the boy and shot him in the lower back.
The boy was taken to University of Michigan Hospital in Ann Arbor, where he was listed in stable condition.
Authorities found the man at his home. He was being held at the Livingston County Jail pending arraignment.

[PavePusher]

1. I doubt most people would shoot someone for ringing the doorbell.

My guess is that there is considerably more to this story than the four sentences at the link...

[Chulanowa]

2. Yeah, the 15 year old deserved to be shot in the back, I'm sure

Anything so that a crazy man with a gun is secretly a fucking hero, and the victim of a crime is the guilty party.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

7. Project much!

[TheWraith]

15. "More to the story" goes both ways.

It's possible that the man wasn't entirely in control of his faculties.

[AtheistCrusader]

19. Nope, he's a shitbag, and going to jail.

Barring some crazy assed extenuating circumstances that haven't been shared yet.

[safeinOhio]

3. A little more

in the Detroit News


Boy shot in Mich. while ringing doorbells as prank

Advertisement

GREEN OAK TOWNSHIP, Mich. (AP) -- Authorities say a 15-year-old boy who was ringing doorbells as a prank in Livingston County was shot by a 69-year-old man at one of the homes.
Green Oak Township police tell WHMI-FM that the boy and three other juveniles were ringing doorbells on Friday night in Green Oak Township when the man confronted the boy and shot him in the lower back.
The boy was taken to University of Michigan Hospital in Ann Arbor, where he was listed in stable condition.
Authorities found the man at his home. He was being held at the Livingston County Jail pending arraignment.
Green Oak Township is about 35 miles northwest of Detroit.
---

Boy shot in back. Man in jail pending arraignment.

No one said this is normal. I wouldn't defend the guy yet from the news we have. My guess is the guy will be in civil and criminal courts for a long expensive time.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

8. Who was defending him?

[AtheistCrusader]

22. A gigantic strawman.

Wearing an agenda for a hat.

[pipoman]

4. Too bad..

Until we know what kind of neighborhood he lives in and if there have been stories of home invasions in his area it may be hard to determine if there is any justification at all for his actions. I employ a couple of 15 year old boys who, if I didn't know them, they may be mistaken for 18-19 year old. Then you get 3 or 4 of them together, a 70 year old may feel threatened, whether he was or not and the outcome may not be pretty. In my state the other boys could be charged with the same crime the shooter is charged with since they were engaged in illegal activity at the time of the shooting. Too bad the kid had to learn to respect others this way...at least he isn't dead...hopefully he has a full recovery and stays out of trouble from now on.

[hlthe2b]

5. Where is ringing a doorbell against the law?

An annoying prank, yes, but your wording ("stays out of trouble" and other boys "could be charged with the same crime the shooter is charged with since they were engaged in illegal activity at the time") suggests otherwise...:shrug:


Yes, I get your point that the old man might have grossly overreacted after feeling threatened and that might come into play in his defense. But, exactly what laws did the kids break, besides being "assholes?"

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

9. Trespassing, malicious mischief, possibly a curfew law

[hlthe2b]

11. RInging an unposted doorbell is trespassing?

Wow... those Girl Scout cookie peddlers and Halloweeners are going to be filling the nation's jails, if we don't arm all those households....

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

20. I was giving some possibilities of laws that MAY have been broken, not that definitely had been.

[safeinOhio]

13. Deadly force, felony vs misdemeanor

If you are going to use your gun, best know the law. Trespassing, malicious mischief and curfew laws are all misdemeanors. Even cops can't shoot some one for those. Also, for your information, you can not use deadly force against the kid TPing your tree. Pretty much the same as ringing a doorbell.


When deadly force is used by a private citizen, the reasonableness rule does not apply. The citizen must be able to prove that a felony occurred or was being attempted, and that the felony threatened death or bodily harm. Mere suspicion of a felony is considered an insufficient ground for a private citizen to use deadly force.

Read more: Deadly Force - Further Readings http://law.jrank.org/pages/5981/Deadly-Force.html#ixzz0XbIIGqRv

Police have more power than a private citizen and even they can't shoot some one for ringing a door bell.


Circumstances that are taken into consideration are the severity of the offense, how much of a threat the suspect poses, and the suspect's attempts to resist or flee the police officer. When arresting someone for a misdemeanor, the police have the right to shoot the alleged offender only in self-defense. If an officer shoots a suspect accused of a misdemeanor for a reason other than self-defense, the officer can be held liable for criminal charges and damages for injuries to the suspect. This standard was demonstrated in the Iowa case of Klinkel v. Saddler, 211 Iowa 368, 233 N.W. 538 (1930), where a sheriff faced a wrongful

[safeinOhio]

14. Even Roy Black can't get you off on that one

and he is one of most expensive criminal lawyers in the country.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/crime/vague-word-frees-probationer-who-shot-prank-pulling-45506.html

The judge's decision, opposed by the victim's parents, Greg and Luciana Drewes, brought a close to a puzzling case that had divided public opinion.
It unfolded on a dark night in October 2003 in the Woodbury neighborhood west of Boca Raton. Levin, an unmarried accountant, woke up shortly after midnight to the sound of his door rattling. He grabbed his gun and went to investigate.
When he opened the door, he testified, he saw a large shadowy figure in the doorway. Thinking the intruder was reaching for a gun, he fired.
The victim turned out to be Mark Drewes, his neighbor, who carried fishing line for a doorbell-ringing prank. The teen died after being shot once in the back.
Levin was ultimately charged with manslaughter. His high-profile attorneys, Roy Black and Mark Shapiro, negotiated a plea deal days before a trial was to begin.
Levin agreed to a 10-year probation in which he would spend weekends in jail in the first year, pay $2.50 a week into a scholarship in Drewes' name and apologize in open court.

Once again, that "shot once in the back" blows your defense.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. You'll have to show me where I said the shooting was justified.

[safeinOhio]

25. You'll have to show me where I said YOU said the shooting was justified.

You mention laws that may have been broken. None of which call for or allow for deadly force. Senile might get him off, like it might get the Ft Hood shooter off. Mean old man holds no weight in any court.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

27. I responded to a question about when ringing a doorbell might be against the law.

I never said anything called for deadly force.

[safeinOhio]

30. I only responded to the laws you said may have been broken in that

so fucking what, you can't shoot the kid in the back. My comment was directed at the poster talking about the kid not respecting others and may have been breaking a law. Stop thinking every comment is directed at you personally.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

NO ONE said you could shoot a kid in the back for ringing a doorbell. Why don't you understand that?

[safeinOhio]

33. I understand what was said in post #4

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

28. So you think the Ft. Hood shooter might be senile?

[safeinOhio]

31. I have no idea of what pathology may be harbored by that shooter.

Not only might he use a mental illness as a defense, I'm sure his defender will.

[safeinOhio]

26. The blows YOUR DEFENSE was not about YOUR defense

it was about whom ever shoots some one in the back and says they were defending themself. I thought that would be clear.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. Huh?

[safeinOhio]

6. I know the area

The median income for a household in the township was $75,173, and the median income for a family was $83,550. Males had a median income of $61,131 versus $39,270 for females. The per capita income for the township was $29,923. About 2.0% of families and 2.6% of the population were below the poverty line, including 2.2% of those under age 18 and 4.5% of those age 65 or over.

The racial makeup of the township was 96.92% White, 0.58% African American, 0.47% Native American, 0.49% Asian, 0.01% Pacific Islander, 0.20% from other races, and 1.32% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 1.28% of the population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Oak_Township,_Michigan

Pretty upscale with little crime and not much if any gang activity.
My guess is that you and I both did dumb things as a 15 year old and then went on to "learn to respect others". To me a third of all 15 year olds look 12, a third look 18 and the rest look 15. Hard to tell from the back. No one is defending anything when they shoot some one in the back, unless the person they shoot is attacking some one else.

I think all responsible gun owners need to condemn those that shed a negative light on us. My hope is that he did not use a legally owned weapon.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

10. He may be a senile old man or he may be a mean old man. The truth will come out.

[pipoman]

34. I don't disagree with any of this and thanks for the demos..

BTW, yes I did knock on doors and run when I was 14 or 15...sure did..

[AtheistCrusader]

24. What the hell

#1. The kid was shot in the back, so barring some really crazy shit, the shooting was unjustified.
#2. Unless your state is totally retarded, shared charges would only apply if they were in the comission of a felony.

[pipoman]

35. I'm not justifying the guy's actions

simply stating, not so eloquently, that the article (like most) doesn't give enough detail to start building a scaffolding quite yet, nor enough to anticipate canonization of the kid upon his death.

[OttavaKarhu]

42. And just try being stalked by a psychopath

Ugh, the stories I've heard from women I've known....

Stalkers doing things like coming to their apartment door in the night and scratching on it. Or getting into their building and then moaning or panting outside the apartment.

I knew a woman who twice had to clean a furious ex-husband's...ejaculate...off her apartment door. She had a restraining order against him. The stalking stopped when she got her 1911 and learned to shoot it, and carefully decided who to tell of her newfound enthusiasm for competitive pistol. :D Word got back to Mr. Crazy reeealll fast. Mr. Crazy found another hobby.

I knew a woman who considered pulling the trigger on someone making odd noises outside her house's door. She was being stalked for volunteering at an abortion clinic. She got phone threats, her car was vandalized, she was followed several times...and once (friends corroborated this) the stalker came to lick and spit on her windows while she was inside with them. Don't ask me, they all said they witnessed it. I guess it's better than jizz, though that's hard to evaluate. But she was trained to assess the threat before shooting, she assessed the threat, and it was, after all, teenagers doing mischief.

Just as it sounds like these Michigan teens were doing. They were too self-absorbed and immature to realize that their "fun" could be a nightmare for a person going through a difficult time. (In her case, targeted for religious terrorism.)

Sorry to squick yall, but I am following up on pipoman's item. There's nothing in this news brief indicating anything other than the barest facts. Some obviously will jump on this sort of partial truth to push their agendas. More mature minded people will wait to learn more of the facts before forming an opinion.

Of course anti-gun people constantly reveal themselves as never having had the experience of being targeted as prey. And reveal themselves as hating the weak/vulnerable (as a commenter on the Jerry Brown story on SF Gate did today).

[Buzz Clik]

12. This forum is a hoot.

[spin]

16. Join in and enjoy the fun. (n/t)

[Buzz Clik]

18. Naw. This asylum is best left for the empassioned. I'll remain a fully entertained spectator.

I own firearms and keep them in my home. However, I find it hysterical when the insane gun-humpers start spewing spittle every time some horrid gun-related tragedy occurs.

Equally amusing is the endless train of "Octagenarian Kills Intruder with 50-caliber Rifle Armed with Depleted Uranium Rounds" or something equally morbid.

"Kill kill kill! Die for your right to own every weapon ever developed!"

"Ban, ban, ban! How many children must die as you cling to the Second Amendment???!!!!?"

Keep it coming. I love it!

:popcorn: :rofl: :popcorn:

[spin]

23. We argue a lot...

but we rarely change the other side's views.

You did sum it up nicely.

[eqfan592]

37. wow, what the fuck are you smoking?

And can I have some? Where is there anybody here saying anything so batshit crazy as that?

You just keep on posting, Buzz. Every idiotic, straw-man filled post you make is a direct reflection on your intelligence level.

[Buzz Clik]

38. Give me a number:

How many posts do you want me to link to this forum that sing praises for somebody using a gun to kill an intruder?

How many posts do you want me to link where the anti-gun crowd is puking fear about guns killing innocent people?

Would ten of each be good enough for you?

Here's the deal: I'll provide ten links to posts of each kind, and then you will start a thread entitled, "I, eqfan592, am a fucking moron." And then you'll apologize to me in the body of your post.

Deal?

[eqfan592]

40. Ummmm, did I ever say that those weren't posted?

No. In fact, I didn't even say anything about any types of "posts" at all. To be more specific, I was speaking about this quote from you:

"Kill kill kill! Die for your right to own every weapon ever developed!"

Point to me where somebody has said this on this forum (it doesn't have to be exact, and it can't be somebody saying it sarcastically).

If you can't, then you will start a thread entitled "I, Buzz Clik, am a fucking moron, and I love straw men....and my butt smells." (I added the last one in for kicks) ;)

Though I find it ironic that the other statement you made, in reference to the "ban ban ban" is actually pretty dead on to what is said on a regular basis by those folks.

[Buzz Clik]

41. Nice try, but backpedaling is a form of cowardice.

It is so incredibly telling when the assholes who post on this forum look at their opponents as unhinged but consider themselves to be rational. BOTH SIDES!

My initial post was hyperbole of the first order, but I guarantee that I could find dozens -- hundreds? -- of posts in this forum that ignore the needless deaths of innocent victims of gun violence while glorifying the killing of others in apparent self defense. Trust me -- as someone who owns weapons yet believes they should be regulated -- that mentality is equally insane as those who feel all weapons should be confiscated.

[eqfan592]

47. Pot, meet kettle.

Claiming that you can find posts ignoring the needless deaths of innocent victims of gun violence while glorifying the killing of others in apparent self defense, even if true, does not equate to finding posts that state "Kill kill kill! Die for your right to own every weapon ever developed!" which is what I challenged you to do.

Being glad a potential victim was able to defend themselves is nothing to be ashamed of. And if you want me to break down into tears every time somebody is a victim of violence, it's not going to happen. My time is better spent finding an actually effective way of putting an end to the violence, which gun control is not (and is, in fact, counter productive).

So my point still stands. Regular posters such as Sharesunited are big "ban ban ban" folks. But I don't see anybody around here saying "Kill kill kill! Die for your right to own every weapon ever developed!" Thank you for admitting at least that this was hyperbole of the first order on your part.

And really, the first sentence of your post is so beyond idiotic as to not even be funny. You know how I know I'm rational compared to people such as Sharesunited? My arguments do not rely almost exclusively on appeals to emotion with the occasional debunked academic study tossed in for good measure. Though there are others on this forum who I can't even compare to when it comes to building a rational and logical argument, such as Euromutt.

Using your logic, nobody can ever be rational about anything when they happen to have a strong opinion on an issue. Or do you reserve this sort of excrement for people who debate on the issue of firearms ownership? If this is the case, perhaps you should take a close look at your own rationality before calling the rationality of others into question.

[aikoaiko]

17. Unless there is more to the story, this guy should be in jail.

Not every shoot is a good shoot.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[JonQ]

36. Seems very unlikley this as self defense

unless many details were omitted.

So he should be punished.

[Xenotime]

39. Lock him up and throw away the key.

[RamboLiberal]

43. More on the story

11/23/09 - The teenager shot by a neighbor Friday night after he rang the man’s doorbell as a prank has been released from the hospital and is recovering at home. The 15 year old and several of his friends were ringing doorbells on Sumac Lane when the homeowner, identified as 69 year old Robert Lupo, confronted him and shot the boy with a gun in the lower back. One of the teens involved in the incident says that after their friend was hit, they picked him up and carried him to a nearby house. From there he was taken to the University of Michigan Medical Center in Ann Arbor. He has since been released. Lupo, meanwhile, was jailed in the aftermath of the shooting, but has been released from custody. It’s not clear whether any charges will be filed. Neighbors say Lupo is very protective of his lawn and not friendly to anyone who goes near it. The case has since been turned over to the Livingston County Prosecutors office. (Photo courtesy of WDIV)

http://www.whmi.com/news/article/9245

A pellet gun was the weapon used in Friday night’s shooting of a 15-year-old boy, who was pranking neighbors by ringing doorbells, in Green Oak Township’s County Lane Estates, according to a resident of the neighborhood.

The boy is reportedly recovering at home following a stay at the University of Michigan Medical Center in Ann Arbor, WDIV-TV reported on its Web site.

He and three friends were ringing doorbells of residences and fleeing in the 13000 block of Sumac Lane in County Lane Estates, north of 10 Mile Road, Friday night when the incident occurred, the boy told police.

Specifically, Deputy Chief Jason Pless declined to confirm or deny whether the weapon used was a pellet gun.

http://www.livingstondaily.com/article/20091123/NEWS01/91123005/-1/NEWSFRONT2/15-year-old-was-shot-with-pellet-gun-Friday

Sounds to me like this homeowner in the wrong on this one.

[safeinOhio]

44. Was just going to post the same news

Is a pellet gun a lethal weapon? I know Mom would never let me have one because it could put an eye out.

[eqfan592]

45. Yes, a pellet gun can kill.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/passaic_county_woman_killed_by.html

[RamboLiberal]

46. Yep - the modern ones can be quite lethal

And there are people who use them on small game.

[safeinOhio]

48. Lewis and Clark took one along

back in the early 1800s. As I recall reading, they could kill a deer with it.

[Katya Mullethov]

49. The Girandoni , And they had an ND

Captain Lewis' first journal entry of the expedition recorded his stop at Brunot Island as he began his descent of the the Ohio River in the expedition's keelboat:

Recorded on August 31, 1803 (shown as August 30):
"Left Pittsburgh this day at 11 ock with a party of 11 hands 7 of which are soldiers, a pilot and three young men on trial they having proposed to go with me throughout the voyage. Arrived at Bruno's Island 3 miles below halted a few minutes. went on shore and being invited on by some of the gentlemen present to try my airgun which I had purchased brought it on shore charged it and fired myself seven times fifty five yards with pretty good success; after which a Mr. Blaze Cenas being unacquainted with the management of the gun suffered her to discharge herself accedentaly the ball passed through the hat of a woman about 40 yards distanc cuting her temple about the fourth of the diameter of the ball; shee feel instantly and the blood gusing from her temple we were all in the greatest consternation supposed she was dead by in a minute she revived to our enespressable satisfaction, and by examination we found the wound by no means mortal or even dangerous;….”


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9WEsILY92o
http://www.beemans.net/lewis-assault-rifle.htm

Fascinating piece of work .

[Glassunion]

50. Was the doorbell harmed?