Hunter mistakes 2 biology students, collecting frogs, for deer. Shoots one to death

[Liberal_in_LA]

Va. student mistaken for deer, shot to death

Wednesday, November 18, 2009

(11-18) 10:02 PST Ferrum, Va. (AP) --

Officials in Virginia say a college student was shot to death while collecting frogs for biology class by a hunter who mistook her and her classmates for deer.

A Ferrum College spokeswoman says three students were collecting frogs Tuesday afternoon along a trail a mile west of campus.

The Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries says 23-year-old Jessica Goode was shot and killed and 20-year-old Regis J. Boudinot was shot in the hand. The third student wasn't hurt.

Department Sgt. Karl Martin says 31-year-old Jason David Cloutier of Ferrum was charged with manslaughter, reckless handling of a firearm and trespassing.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/11/18/national/a100210S56.DTL&tsp=1

[Taverner]

1. Throw the book at him

and I'm deadly serious

[question everything]

20. Agree (nt)

[joeybee12]

2. And I'm sure alcohol had no part in this...

...lock the shit away forever.

[PavePusher]

86. If you have proof of alcohol impairment...

please post it. Otherwise, idle speculative fantasy does not say much for your veracity. Or are you simply trying to paint hunters as drunken hooligans?

On the second half of your post, I agree completely. See? Common ground...

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. How terrible!

[Kaleva]

4. I stay out of the woods & fields during deer rifle season.

[paulsby]

6. assuming

that this jurisdiction has a specific hunting season (mine does), anybody who goes in the woods without lots of hunter orange on is a moron. regardless, that doesn't absolve the hunter from liability for shooting a person. gotta be sure of target identity before firing. so, unless the frog hunters were dressed in deer costumes, the hunter is likely wrong

[G_j]

10. he was also charged with trespassing

so it doesn't look like he was hunting legally.

[Kaleva]

11. Too many hunters don't verify their target before firing.

They hear a noise or see some motion and shoot, hoping to bag a deer.

[havocmom]

64. Well, that and beer

I see a LOT of hunters each season. Their diet is mostly liquid.

[Euromutt]

99. Not just in the U.S. either

Maybe between 15 and 20 years ago, a German hunter in the Harz mountains took a few pots at what he thought were a couple of wild boar. In fact, they were two Dutch commandos on a training exercise. One dead, one wounded. The Dutch infantry had an institutional dislike of hunters for years after.

[AtheistCrusader]

107. No, they don't.

All it takes is for the deer to be the wrong GENDER, and you lose your privelidge to hunt forever. Plus fines, plus possible incarceration.

[SteveM]

116. More and more hunters DO. Firearm hunting deaths are declining (nt)

[Arctic Dave]

12. Yeah, it's the students fault for not wearing orange. Bullshit.

This idiot needs to go to jail for a long, long time. If you don't know what you are shooting at, don't shoot it. Ever!

[paulsby]

13. try some reading comprehension. you fail

i did not say it was the student's fault. i said that assuming there was a discrete hunting season, they were morons if they weren't wearing hunter orange. two totally different things. reading comprehension: it's what's for dinner

[Arctic Dave]

25. By calling "morons" you imply that they are at fault because this idiot doesn't know shit about

hunting safely. Funny, all the years I been hunting I've never shot anyone that wasn't wearing orange. Why is this, becuase I verify what I'm shooting at first.

[paulsby]

27. no, i don't imply that

you inferred it. i made it CLEAR (no implication needed) that assuming the fact pattern as told, the HUNTER was at fault. it's right there. if i leave my keys in the ignition when i park the car, i'm a moron. it doesn't follow that it's my fault the car was stolen. sorry. reading comprehension fail

[Arctic Dave]

41. Imply. Infer.

"These two words, which originally had quite distinct meanings, have become so blended together that most people no longer distinguish between them. If you want to avoid irritating the rest of us, use “imply” when something is being suggested without being explicitly stated and “infer” when someone is trying to arrive at a conclusion based on evidence. “Imply” is more assertive, active: I imply that you need to revise your paper; and, based on my hints, you infer that I didn’t think highly of your first draft."

You said in your post that they should have been wearing orange if they are in the woods, then you called them morons. Should all people have to wear orange to be in the woods?

[paulsby]

73. it's quite simple

if you are in the woods, and aren't wearing orange during hunting season. you are... wait for it... a moron. this is more true if the woods is some area that borders a hunting area, or something like that, but it's a general commonsense rule. fwiw, my agency and many private companies (surveyors, etc.) require their workers to wear hunter orange in such situations. it's just common sense.

[gorfle]

112. YES!

Should all people have to wear orange to be in the woods?

If you are going into woods where hunting is allowed during deer hunting season YOU ARE A MORON IF YOU ARE NOT WEARING HUNTER ORANGE.

This doesn't mean it's your fault if you get shot. It just means you were a moron for taking such a risk.

[rd_kent]

128. The only one irritating anyone is you and your obvious attempt to obfuscate.

[Jakes Progress]

51. If I say that poster who use the word moron

and don't expect ramifications are stupid idiots, would I be guilty of saying that I implied that you were a stupid idiot. I, of course, don't mean to say that since I don't know you, but it would seem to me that your wording was at least poorly thought out. One can mourn the fact that walking in the woods is made perilous because people like to kill animals with big guns. One can say that it is a shame that one would maybe need to use bright orange clothing during macho season. But if you say these people are morons because they were walking in the woods without clown clothing, you cannot then reasonably say you weren't blaming the victims. From your other posting here, i don't believe you meant to do that. Perhaps the best response to those who took it that way was to simply say "Sorry about the wording. That was not what I intended."

[theHandpuppet]

60. You can backtrack all you want, doesn't change what you wrote

You called these kids morons for not wearing hunting orange during deer season and said the the hunter was LIKELY wrong. It's not our reading comprehension that fails here, it's your literacy and common sense.

[paulsby]

75. i aint backtracking

jackshit... and jack left town. i said the hunter was LIKELY wrong, because i am relying on a terse media report, and unlike many people i don't jump to conclusions about criminal or civil culpability with minimal evidence. that's why i said LIKELY. i never, wait for it.. NEVER said the kids were at FAULT. just because you are a moron, doesn't make you at fault. if you leave your keys in the ignition of your car when you park it , especially in public places. you are a moron. it doesn't mean it's your FAULT that your car got stolen. it's the fault of the guy who steals it. it's really that simple

[Kaleva]

17. Poster didn't say it was the students fault but one must take precautions.

I avoid driving as much as possible on New Years Eve. It wouldn't be my fault if I got hit by a drunk driver but I think it wise to play it safe.

[paulsby]

18. thank you

the guy jumped to a conclusion. nowhere did i say it was the student's fault. i simply said that ASSUMING that jurisdiction has a discrete hunting season, they were morons for going in the woods without hunter orange. if i leave my car keys in the ignition, i'm a moron. it doesn't follow that it's my fault my car got stolen. it is the fault of the person that stole it

[Jakes Progress]

100. So given the example in the post you reply to here

you would say that anyone who drives on New Years eve is a a moron.

Face it. You just used a poor choice of words in a quick reply. But going on and on trying to defend your silly wording is making you look less than you probably are. Let ego go and fess up to poor choice of words instead of word nibbling and ducking.

[SteveM]

118. Speaking of "poor word choices," what do you mean by "macho season?" (nt)

[dmallind]

140. Well to jump in I'd say potentially yes

If you are driving early New Year's Day without absolutely having to, and without being excessively cautious, you are a moron. Same for walking through woods where deer live during deer season without being dressed in some bright and preferably fluorescent color (incidentally nothing in the article says they were not doing so). You are a moron if you walk outside certain nightclubs at closing time wearing certain colors. You are a moron, as another poster says, if you leave your keys in your car, leave your car running and your doors unlocked while you go into MCDonalds. You are a moron if you argue with a large belligerent drunk man in a bar where everyone seems to be his friend.

In none of those situations is the potential damage or loss to you your fault, but you proved to be a moron for not taking very simple precautions to reduce the likelihood of that damage or loss significantly.

Nevertheless the hunter here is definitely at fault. Only way it could be otherwise is if they were collecting frogs while wearing a VERY realistic deer costume. I think the article would have mentioned that.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

105. I think it's naive (at best) of you to protest that there is no connection

between calling someone a moron, a word charged with much contempt and condemnation, and encouraging a condescending prejudice in the minds of those reading you, who consider themselves above such moron-icity.

IOW, Predisposing one's listeners to assume the moron in question got what was coming to them.


Additionally, few people outside of the hunting community would even be aware that hunting season is on.

[eqfan592]

111. Seriously, let it the fuck go.

You've gone beyond the ridiculous level here with this. Even if you think it was a poor choice of wording, paul apparently doesn't. I frankly can see both sides of the picture as making valid points here to a degree, but it's a stupid ass thing to be arguing about either way.

EDIT: Replied to the wrong post. Should have been to post #100.

[Johonny]

24. Seems they took precautions

Sounds like the hunter not them was in the wrong place. Going into the woods where people aren't suppose to be hunting seems like a precaution to me. Anyways there isn't enough information in that article to even know what the kids were wearing.

[Kaleva]

84. I stay out of the woods and fields period during rifle season.

Regardless if the area is open to hunting or not. If, for some reason I must, it's a quick in and out.

[Arctic Dave]

31. Yes he did. If you imply that this would not have happened if they were wearing orange

then yes, you are blaming them. Like I posted already I have never shot and killed anyone while hunting because they were wearing orange. It's because i verify what I'm shooting at.

[enlightenment]

43. Gotta ask, how many people

have you shot while hunting that were not wearing orange? I took the I have never shot and killed anyone while hunting because they were wearing orange as a typo the first time you wrote it . . .

are you sure you don't mean 'anything' rather than 'anyone'?

:)

[Arctic Dave]

53. I would tell you but I'd have to shoot you.

:) it's hard doing this from a phone.

[paulsby]

77. no, you don't understand

the words "fault" or blame. if you wear hunter orange, you are less likely to get accidentally shot if you are in the woods and/or near a hunting ground. that's common sense, and that's why hunters are REQUIRED ( in most cases) to wear it, and why many other people in the woods during hunting season - wear it. you can't seem to grok 2 points that are not mutually exclusive. 1) hunters should be sure of their target. just because the target is not wearing hunter orange doesn't mean it's a-ok to shoot. VERIFY YOUR TARGET 2) in order to significanly LESSEN the possibility of being shot (wrongly or not), WEAR hunter orange in the woods during hunting season. nowhere did i say the kids were at fault, or to blame. it does not therefore follow that they are not morons for not taking basic safety precautions while in the woods during hunting season

[Kaleva]

81. If everyone was like you, there'd be no need to wear hunter orange.

But not everyone is like you or me so that is why the wearing of orange is required.

[Tesha]

71. It's paulsby. He stands for the gunners. (NT)

[paulsby]

78. utter rubbish

i stand for common sense. based on the fact pattern, the hunter appears guilty, and just plain wrong. it does not therefore follow that the kids if they weren't wearing hunter orange if they were in the woods during hunting season, are morons. if you leave your keys in the car in a public place, you are not at fault when your car gets stolen. but you are a moron. and god knows i have gone to those calls many times... "i just ran into the store for a minute to get a cup of coffee and when i came out, the car was gone". that's moronic. but it doesn't put the moron at fault. hth

[SteveM]

119. And you stand for a bad fart in a good VW?

[rd_kent]

129. What does that mean?

Please define "gunners". Does this mean you are a "grabber"?

[SteveM]

117. Agreed. This guy needs to face the consequences (nt)

[rd_kent]

127. Who said that? Why do you imply that such a thing was said?

[miyazaki]

28. likely wrong? he was as bad wrong as you can possibly get,

in anyway you look at it.

[theHandpuppet]

59. Anyone who doesn't postively identify their target...

Before pulling the trigger of a hunting rifle is the moron. The hunter is LIKELY wrong? If you can't tell the difference betwen a deer and a coed, you have no business hunting, PERIOD.

[baldguy]

74. A blaze of orange doesn't stop a lot of trigger-happy morons from shooting.

One of the first rules I learned was "know what you're shooting at BEFORE you shoot".

[geniusiknowit]

133. Yes it does.

The orange stops them from shooting.

[Hangingon]

44. Good idea

The hunter is responsible but that won't take away the pain

[liberal_at_heart]

63. no kidding

I'm always careful in the woods because I am worried about coming across a bear or something. I never occured to me that I should fear the woods because of hunters. If this guy mistook a person for a deer he must not have seen his target very clearly. Any hunter that shoots at something they are not sure of 100% and ends up hurting someone should be prosecuted. Do hunters have to take classes in order to hunt? If they don't they should.

[amandabeech]

80. Hunters are not required to take classes, at least not that I've ever heard.

Be aware of hunting seasons in your area. Almost all of them are in the autumn. Your state's website should have plenty of info. Usually your state's equivalent of the Department of Natural Resources will be the enforcing agency.

The worst season in the rifle deer hunting season, which is happening about now everywhere. Stay out of the woods during this season! It is the most popular hunting season and brings out the amateurs, the drunks, the druggies and the kids. There's no reason that you need to crash their party!

[X_Digger]

92. Depends on the state and the age of the hunter..

In most states, if you were born after a certain date, you have to take a hunting safety class. Every state I've hunted in requires it.

[amandabeech]

102. I stand corrected and relieved. Thanks. n/t

[SteveM]

120. The near-universal requirement for hunter ed has led to a sharp reduction in shootings...

during hunting season. The other requirement which has brought about a big decrease in hunting-related shootings has been to wear hunter orange. Those of us who have hunted for years have been playing catch-up to the anti-hunters who still depict the average hunter as "drunks who lie to their wives about where they have been" (to paraphrase former Gov. Carey of N.Y., who later apologized).

[AtheistCrusader]

108. Anyone born after 1972 is required to take the course.

The quality of the course can vary from state to state, but there is some form of mandatory training.

[Kaleva]

95. I'm 50 and I had to take a hunting safety class when I was a teenager.

i had to show the certificate showing i had passed the class before i could get a license.

[SteveM]

115. I don't. I'm IN the woods & fields hunting deer...

Hunting accidents (by firearm) are low and continuing to drop. SEE: hunter ed. programs and requirement to wear "hunter orange."

BTW, I got a 10-point buck with a 17+" inside spread this season, already!

[elocs]

5. I live in WI and we have had lots of deer hunting horror stories over the years.

Our gun season starts here this next weekend and the last place I would ever be during deer hunting season is when every nut and his or her brother is out in the woods with a rifle. Hell, we even let blind people hunt here.

[theHandpuppet]

61. Even the best precautions don't protect you from hunters...

... who don't follow the rules. My mother can't even come out of her house during deer season because of the sheer number of irresponsible, moronic hunters who trespass on HER CLEARLY MARKED PRIVATE PROPERTY and blast away at anything that moves, including firing shots toward her house. There's no way the grandkids can even come for a visit and I'll be damned if they have to wear orange just to visit their grandmother.

[PavePusher]

87. She should be calling the police and game wardens,

taking pictures and, if all else fails... shoot back.

[TuxedoKat]

101. Agreed

A friend of mine had a bullet come through the window of her upstairs bathroom while she was in there. If she hadn't been bending over the sink she would have been hit by it. Her husband, a hunter himself, had to advise the neighbors no more hunting on his property.

[taurus145]

104. Yes, blind people are allowed to hunt, but

they must have a guide, assistant, helper - you pick - that has good eyesight and the rifle must be fitted with a laser so that the assistant can ascertain that the rifle is on target before the shot is taken.

It's not as though blind folks or those with serious vision impairment are just blasting away in the woods hoping to hit a deer,

[SteveM]

121. How many lately? Hunting accidents have been on a precipitous decline...

What is the procedure for allowing blind people to hunt? How many accidents have occurred? Any data?

[mike_c]

7. I worry about this sort of thing every year....

One of the lab techs in my PhD lab was killed in the field by a hunter, years ago. Now my own students are out doing undergrad and graduate research projects each year. It's scary.

[amandabeech]

9. For heaven's sake, keep them out of the woods during deer hunting season!!!

Have them wear blaze orange all the time anyway.

I have no sympathy for the hunter here and my guess is that he wasn't sober, but I grew up in a rural area, and I'm giving you my BEST advice.

Don't take chances!!!!

[slampoet]

19. At least 60% of what we need to know about mammals happens in Autumn.

In Michigan for example, keeping scientists out of the forest during hunting season amounts to Sept through January.

Also remember that these scientists are gathering information ABOUT some of the animals that are being hunted and whether that can be sustained.

[amandabeech]

42. I grew up in a rural area in MICHIGAN with a dad who hunted. Here are some TIPS:

Your most dangerous time is deer rifle season which is two weeks long and starts about now. Check the state website for exact dates each year. The worst times to be in the woods are: (1) First day of the season; and (2) First weekend of the season.

There are a LOT of drunken and stoned amateur hunters in the woods during these times. There may be even more of them this year because people who don't normally hunt may be out to get some meat for their families. My dad and his friends weren't drunks, stoners or amateurs, but some of my friends' dads and brothers were and are.

You can figure out the other problem when you realize that many local high school students get the flu on the first day of the season. Still.

If you MUST go, COVER yourself in blaze orange and go to the most remote areas. The hunters there most likely know what they're doing. If you see lots of hunters and their debris, GET OUT. If you see piles of apples or carrots in the woods, GET OUT. Stay away from elevated blinds. They look like tree forts.

I know that posting on this thread would an exercise in futility, but if I can save one grad student, I'll have done my duty.

Edit: improved title

[amandabeech]

54. Here's another tip if you must go out for professional reasons.

Many farmers keep lands posted and try to keep the hunters off, for many reasons.

Go out to the area that might want to study before hand but after harvest. Talk to your folks in ag or botany departments about the time of harvest in the area in which you're interested. Talk to the farmers and see if there's someone who keeps hunters off, but would allow you to go in and study the deer.

Still, stay out during the worst times and always wear lots of blaze orange. Those bullets travel far and some hunters trespass at will in back wood lots.

edit: grammar, spelling

[mike_c]

23. I'm afraid those aren't very workable options....

First, we teach university classes during hunting season-- faculty don't get any say in when classes are scheduled. Second, the students are adults-- they wear what they want to wear, and they're working on their own time. AND they have every right to expect access to their national forests and other public lands without being shot at by recreational hunters. In truth, my biggest fear is not that they'll encounter hunters, but that they'll encounter paranoid marijuana growers defending their gardens-- it happens occasionally here. As an aside, the only really scary encounters I've had personally in the woods here are with Campaign Against Marijuana Planting (CAMP) cops!

[amandabeech]

45. Good luck to you. For your colleagues who work in deer hunting states,

see my posts #42 and #54, above. PLEASE.

[gorfle]

113. Being in the woods.

Second, the students are adults-- they wear what they want to wear, and they're working on their own time. AND they have every right to expect access to their national forests and other public lands without being shot at by recreational hunters.

First of all, I fully agree that one of the primary rules of firearm safety is that you never shoot at a target unless you are certain of the target and what lays beyond it.

That said, public lands open to hunting are going to be used by hunters during hunting season. Other people are still free to use them at the same time, of course, but they should be aware that it is hunting season and there are people in the woods hunting!

Anyone who goes into a deer hunting area during hunting season not wearing blaze orange is a fool.

[havocmom]

65. We had a kid in our area shot. He was not in the woods. He was in a wheat field.

The wheat field had been harvested, the stubble was about 4 inches tall. He a tall 12 year old, wearing orange jacket and hat. He was sitting on a John Dere tractor. A John Dere tractor is kelly green and bright yellow, and looks nothing like a white tail or mule deer.

Yes, beer was a factor, as was trespassing into fields clearly marked NO HUNTING.

I don't take my big tan dog for walks IN TOWN this time of year. One hunter was shot by another hunter in town, in separate hotel rooms.

Most of them around here are middle-aged drunk scoff-laws whooping it up where they aren't known and don't have to face their wives at the end of the day. They often tend to leave their kills hanging for days while they spend the rest of their hunting holiday at the bar. Wasting game meat is also illegal here.

Assholes.

[amandabeech]

67. Good lord! "Assholes" is kind.

The idiot who shot him was probably aiming 90 degrees to the right at some squirrel who came up for air in the woods nearby.

No way does any size John Deere look like a deer.

I like the part about how they don't have to face their wives at the end of the day. That pretty much sums up what I've seen in the watering holes in the town with the Holiday Inn nearest to where I grew up. Those are the same guys who liked to buy White Russians for college ladies home for Thanksgiving back in the days when the legal drinking age was 18. Nice bunch of guys. Real classy.

[havocmom]

69. few years back a small bunch of men brought their young children with them on hunting trip

The kids were aged 5-9. Quality time with their dads? Um, not quite. The men set up a campsite several miles from ANYTHING. Hunted during the day, then left the small kids alone at campsite in the middle of nowhere so they could all go into the nearest town to drink, about 25 miles from their camp, and a town of only about 150 people with no medical facilities or much of anything else, for that matter.

Yep, big wreck on way back to their camp (and kids), after several hours drinking. No baby sitter with the kids, no designated driver, just a bunch of drunks on a dirt road that doesn't see much travel. All but one of the men were already dead when someone came on the one car wreck. The one who wasn't dead did manage to mention kids at a campsite before he died. You can imagine the terror of the people who got a search party up in a hurry. There are mountain lions in the area where they left their kids, and it was cold too.

Betting they had history of behaving badly prior to that last trip. Always figured they were using their kids as cover so their wives would let them go hunting.

Assholes is the term I use when trying to keep my blood pressure in check.

[amandabeech]

70. That beats EVERY bad hunters story that I have ever heard by a lot.

Get your medicine!

I think that I'll go out for a walk. No deer hunting going on about 10 miles from DC where I live. There are deer, however, so one never knows, does one?


EDIT: I got so upset reading your post that I didn't even read that the last guy died. Not that I can get upset about his death, mind you, except for the fact that his wife isn't getting alimony and child support. I hope that each of them had a big life insurance policy, but it doesn't sound like they were the type to plan ahead for the wife and kids.

[Kaleva]

96. These guys weren't hunters. They were drunks & lousy parents.

[SteveM]

123. How many killed in your state over the last 10 years? (nt)

[Kaleva]

85. My dad kept the cows in the barn during hunting season.

Nothing gets some hunters so excited as seeing a 1500 lb., black and white deer that goes "Moooo!".

[havocmom]

91. Yep

Knew some folks in the mountains of western part of Montana who lost a dog and a couple milk cows over the years. They resorted to spray painting C O W on the sides of their new milk cows and the dog wore vests and never left the front garden in hunting season.

Front garden was where the previous pets and cows had been shot, by the way, within about 10 yards of the cabin. Hunting season was hell for them too.

[Kaleva]

94. An old neighbor put orange reflective tape on his deer lawn ornaments..

to keep the violators from shooting his ornaments.

[amandabeech]

103. LOL!!!! n/t

[SteveM]

122. I would leave my kill hanging for days if I could...

When the temperature is low enough, this is the best way to age deer and other game. As it is, I quarter my deer and leave it in ice chest(s) for 5-6 days -- then I "whoop it up." (Since I'm not married, I don't have to face anyone at the end of the day.)

Do you have any statistics on hunting deaths (by firearm) over the last, oh, 10-20 years? If so, please post them. Here in Texas a few years back, one person was killed by pulling his SHOTGUN from the car barrel-first. There were no other deaths; a couple years preceding there were NO deaths by firearm in Texas.

Must be rough where you are.

[Enthusiast]

8. There is never a good

excuse for a hunter shooting another person. The incidences of deer hunters shooting horses, dogs and people are just too numerous. Humans, horses and dogs look nothing like a deer. And it is always wrong to shoot in the direction of a "sound", imagining that sound to be produced by a deer.

[WI_DEM]

14. These stupid gawd-damn hunters need to be more careful now a 23 year old is dead

by some asshole deer hunter who was so intent on getting his kill he decided not to make sure what he was shooting at. He got his kill alright.

[SIMPLYB1980]

16. And he will be punished. This is very sand but no

reason to bash deer hunters.

[WI_DEM]

22. I'm bashing this deer hunter and others like him who don't look before they shoot

not all deer hunters. True most deer hunters don't shoot any person but every year you hear about those who do.

[SIMPLYB1980]

29. Good the ones you are bashing deserve it.

Just wanted to bring that up. They give responsible hunters a bad name.:hi:

[SteveM]

124. THANK YOU! (nt)

[SIMPLYB1980]

15. Bad hunter. Glad he was charged with manslaughter.

Never take a shot until you know what you are shooting at is one of the first rules you learn.

[eqfan592]

21. "Know your target and what's beyond it."

It's one of the fundamental rules of safe handling and usage of a firearm. It gets hammered into a persons skull when they take a firearms or hunters safety course (I took the NRA courses for pistol and rifle usage and we hit on these and other safety points like crazy). Hell, I even randomly quiz my wife on the points now that she owns a gun as well for home defense.

This guy obviously didn't take any of this to heart, and he should rightfully be punished for it, assuming there isn't some really strange aspect to the story we haven't heard about yet.

[SIMPLYB1980]

32. This fool probably didn't take any hunter safety course.

Also apparently he doesn't care much for the laws and rules anyway because he was trespassing on the land he was hunting on.

[eqfan592]

35. Very true. (nt)

[slackmaster]

39. I got that one drilled into my head at age 10 by my dad

Along with "Every gun is loaded", "Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and ready to shoot", and "Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy".

[reggie the dog]

46. I learned the same starting at about 4 years old

[jesus_of_suburbia]

34. agree totally.

[Missy Vixen]

26. Manslaughter? Nope, that's murder

Let's call it like it is. He killed her.

A woman was shot to death last year in Washington State for daring to hike in the woods. Her killer was fourteen. His grandfather sat in the car while Mr. Shooter and his buddy "went hunting".

I'm wondering how many more of these "accidents" are going to happen before people wise up and start insisting on significant punishments -- in other words, prison, and the inability to own a firearm again.

[depakid]

30. Under the law, it's manslaughter unless there's proof of some specific intent

[Missy Vixen]

38. He pointed the gun. He shot. Seems pretty "premeditated" to me.

Again, I'm always amused at the apologists for these stories.

Someone else's 23-year-old is now dead because she got in the way of his gun.

:eyes:

[depakid]

50. Not every homicide is murder

though in America- with it's lock 'em up and throw away the key attitude toward criminal justice at every level other than so called white collar crime, we get a situation akin to grade inflation.

Can't let centuries old common law get in the way of that pound of flesh.

Bottom line- unless the evidence shows he thought he was aiming at humans or reasonably thought he'd hit humans, it's not murder- at least not in the time honored sense. It's reckless behavior or negligent behavior.

Now the Washington case was a travesty in the sense that it was "worth" more time under the facts. A couple of years, at least- though one also has to take the age of the defendant into account alongside the evidence.

[11 Bravo]

58. Unless you believe that the hunter set out that morning to bag a college biology student ...

this is quite possibly the dumbest fucking post I have ever read. Murder requires intent. Drunk, stoned, stupid, not paying attention? That's why we have manslaughter 1,2,and 3.
But I've been hunting for more than 45 years (without ever hitting another living thing that I wasn't aiming at), so I'm probably just another "apologist".

[rrneck]

88. From what I've seen

the poster to which you refer is anything but an apologist.

[FarCenter]

37. I agree -- it should be premeditated murder because he intended to kill what he shot at

[AtheistCrusader]

106. He probably didn't intend to kill a human.

Please don't torture the law. It's quite clear this should be manslaughter, or some form of negligent homicide.

[paulsby]

79. the stunning ignorance of the law never ceases to amaze

you can call it a ham sandwich. but murder, at least in the legal sense, requires certain elements. in almost all jurisdictions, this case would be manslaughter. and the guy will probably get prison, fwiw. all this prattling aside, accidental gun deaths are at a historical low, on a per capita basis, despite widespread gun ownership. that's a good thing. people who shoot targets they haven't verified, should get punished.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[era veteran]

36. One person studying life

The other dealing death. I cannot tolerate fools with guns. RIP Ms Goode

[FarCenter]

40. Regis J. Boudinot of McLean was shot in the hand

http://www.news8.net/news/stories/1109/679424.html

20-year-old Regis J. Boudinot of McLean was shot in the hand. The third student wasn't injured.

"There has been extensive damage done to his right hand, and part of at least one finger is missing," Boudinot's stepmother, Kimberly Boudinot, wrote in a Facebook wall post. "The surgeon tried to fill in the missing tissue. All nerves and tendons/etc. seem to be intact, but will require a lot of therapy to heal."

Cynthia Roberson, the Boudinots' longtime neighbor in McLean, says she was shocked to learn the news.

"He's a wonderful boy and it's very sad it happened to him," Roberson said. "That's very hard to cope with now, that he has to live with that," Roberson said.

"He will need a lot of support from everybody to get through it," she added

[Are_grits_groceries]

47. The way some people hunt these days

wearing neon lights sometimes won't help. They hear or see aomething and they shoot. They don't look first. My cousin and I were almost shot one time, and we were wearing orange.

It was a stupid asshole cousin and his friend who had had a beer or two. They weren't supposed to even be hunting there because the land is posted and fenced.

[reggie the dog]

48. How do we know he was not out hunting liberals?

This was just one mile from a university. Most uni students are liberals and even some state level Republican politicians in Mississippi publically admit that they find hunting liberals fun.

[Blue_Tires]

49. From the Roanoke Times:

http://www.roanoke.com/news/breaking/wb/226759

[rd_kent]

52. The same thing happened in Washington last year.

Woman was hiking on a trail and was shot by a hunter.

Not sure how ANYONE that considers them self a hunter or a responsible gun owner would shoot at an animal without verifying what animal it is.......this guy needs to go to jail.

[AtheistCrusader]

109. That 'hunter' was a 10 year old kid that had no business hunting without supervision.

You also cannot legally discharge a firearm on the trails. Period.

[Blue_Tires]

55. I remember an old co-worker of mine who was a hardcore hunter

the type who filled up his freezer with deer sausage and all that...you did NOT want to get him started on the reckless, big-money novice 'weekend warriors' or the ignornant backwoods bumpkins who were more likely to shoot themselves THEN shoot somebody else before they ever got close to a deer... he also spoke of the mindset of when someone is SO itchy to shoot something in the woods, they start firing at anything they saw (or even think they saw) moving -- for that reason, believe it or not, he said he NEVER wore orange while out hunting...the first (and only) time he ever wore it he got shot...

[CoffinEd]

56. Here's a mug shot of the asshole!

The only thing he's missing is a large "Moran" sign.

http://www2.wsls.com/sls/news/local/southside/article/hunter_charged_in_ferrum_student_shootings_out_of_jail_names_of_victims_rel/63282/

[amandabeech]

62. I think that his expression says, "My god, what have I done?"

My guess is that this guy is remorseful or soon will be, without regard to his IQ.

That doesn't bring back the dead student or take the injuries away from the other, though.

[mrbarber]

131. I think his expression says "How am I gonna get outta this?"

Stop projecting your own feelings onto this murdering idiot. He doesn't deserve it. And he's out of jail already? How nice. Hope he manages to get some more hunting in, wouldn't want him to miss out.

This story makes me sick. Hopefully the next time he picks up a gun he trips and blows his own goddamn head off. And takes out a few of his drunken idiot buddies with him.

[slackmaster]

90. It must really suck to be him today

And for the rest of his life.

Parents, if you aren't qualified to teach your children gun safety, find someone who is qualified and let your children learn.

[rrneck]

97. Seperated at birth?

Maybe his long lost brother was carrying a "Tree of liberty" sign.

William Kostric
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/11/765317/-Who-is-William-Kostric

[mitchum]

57. He was no hunter, but rather some dipshit with a gun shooting at any movement or sound

[Kaleva]

82. True.

[marions ghost]

66. hunting laws are never enforced

I live in an area that borders on rural wooded areas and fields. People are shooting close to houses and just about anywhere they like without any consequences. They use high-powered rifles and whatever guns they want.

It's absurd. But that's America. Where stupid people with guns hold the rest of us hostage.

[taurus145]

114. Really?

How long have you been held? Don't you miss going out to the movies or the mall?

In short, your comment is over the top.

Stupid people? To borrow a line from Armageddon, "Do you want to match brain pans...?"

Ask any of the thousands cited and/or arrested each year by game wardens about the idea of hunting laws never being enforced.

People speed, drive recklessly, drive aggressively, etc. everyday. would you use the same logic to state flatly that traffic laws are never enforced.

Get a clue. Get a grip. Get on with your life. I'll get on with mine.

Yes. I'm a legal and responsible hunter and gun owner. I've never shot but one animal semi-legally. It was a rabid skunk. I shot it at night. Technically illegal because I discharged a firearm outdoors after dark. Sue me. Better the citation I didn't get than a rabies epidemic in the area. Our local game warden said I did a good thing. Imagine that!

[BrightKnight]

130. I see the game warden almost every time I go out.

They are always all business and very thorough. Walking up on armed people that might be drunk and breaking the law is frightening but they do it. I have nothing but respect for them. I buy a license every year whether I hunt or not because I support what they are doing.

I grew up in east Texas and I understand what you are saying about hunting in populated areas. It is an issue for local law enforcement and not the game wardens. It may be legal to hunt in Dallas but it is very illegal to fire a weapon in most areas.

[deaniac21]

68. fro him wruffy to the ground

[flvegan]

72. Moron. n/t

[juno jones]

76. I know it's awful

But I can't get Tom Lerher's "Two game wardens, seven hunters and a cow" out of my head now.

[aikoaiko]

83. I'm glad to see these shootings treated as crimes instead of accidents.

Not too long ago a lot of "mistaken" shootings by hunters were minimized as accidents.

Manslaughter seems like the correct charge.

[Tim01]

89. There is no way to mistake a person for a deer.

Unless you are just shooting at a noise or a moving spot of brown.

They should hang this piece of shit.

[slackmaster]

93. The basics of firearm safety should be taught in public schools

We teach kids the dangers of drugs, unprotected sex, and driving. We should teach them about safe firearm handling too, since so many parents are unqualified to teach it.

[spin]

125. Agreed, but difficult with the no gun policy in many schools....

I feel gun safety should be a required course in high school.

The chances of that ever happening are zero.

But lives would be saved.

[iverglas]

134. a licence should be required in order to acquire firearms

and completion of a firearms safety / legislation course should be a requirement for obtaining a licence.

Schools are for education, not for wasting the time of the significant proportion of students (and taxes of their parents) who have no desire to possess or handle firearms, ever. Shooting guns is no different from ballroom dancing or speaking ancient Greek in that regard. Not what schools are there for.

You want to possess a firearm, you go qualify, on your own time and at your own expense.

But hell, that would violate some big honking right, I know. Fuck the right to life of people killed by morons and assholes who should never have been allowed within a country mile of a firearm to start with.

[beevul]

135. Are you speaking in the context of "In America"? N/T

[iverglas]

136. I am speaking in the context of "in the civilized world"

You're welcome to join the club anytime.

[beevul]

137. I wouldn't want to accuse you of advocating a policy position...

I wouldn't want to accuse you of advocating a policy position in America, so I asked.

Thanks for the clear and concise answer. Not.

"I am speaking in the context of "in the civilized world""


Based on that answer, one might conclude that "the civilized world", should you be in close proximity to it, has not rubbed off on you in any measurable or meaningful way.

[iverglas]

138. wow

That made sense. Not.

[Hoopla Phil]

139. Agreed. In my high school one of the elective classes taught basic

firearms safety. IIRC the class was Ag, as in agriculture.

[Euromutt]

98. Blatant violation of Rule #4: "Always be sure of your target"

"... and what is beyond it."

The hunter here definitely criminally negligent, and 2nd degree manslaughter seems the appropriate charge. God, what a waste of human life. I have nothing against hunters (and hunting) in general, but when every effort is made (safety classes etc.) to prevent this sort of thing from happening, you can't help think that it has to be because the hunter was acting like an idiot.

[JonQ]

110. He shot at something without knowing what it was

violated a very basic tenet of gun safety.

No sympathy for this idiot. Give him the max sentence for negligent homicide (or whatever he is ultimately charged with).

[highlander100]

126. NO CURE FOR STUPIDITY

Well, there's no cure for stupidity...

[PavePusher]

132. The is one sure cure...

But it's terminal.