Tricked out Mini 14 vs. AR15 carbine?

[Deep13]

This is for casual shooting at the range and my paranoid-end-of-the-world senarios.

I am thinking of trading in the Beretta Cx4 carbine (92 magazines) for a proper rifle caliber carbine.

The local dealer has one factory-loaded Mini 14 with the following:

-collapsable folding stock
-picatini rails
-20-rd. factory magazine
-rings
-Sig red-dot
-lamp/laser sight
-aperture rear sight.
-rubber pistol grip
-heavy 16" barrel

I have found out that a .22LR conversion kit exists for it for shooting at the pistol range. There are factory 20 and 30-rd. magazines available for it. The loaded Mini 14 is $1100.

In the opinion of those knowledgeable in such things, should I snag this item or get a carbine length AR15 instead? With a telescoping stock, but otherwise stripped it is about a grand. I had an AR15 target rifle briefly, but traded it in for a Savage model 12. I still have the .22 conversion kit and spare aluminum magazines that I could sell if I went the Mini14 route.

[dionysus]

1. screw those pop-guns, get an M-1

:evilgrin:

[Deep13]

8. I knew someone was going to say that!

Seriously, I am really looking at carbines, not rifles. I already have a model 12 that is accurate to 600 years (or so I'm told, our range only goes to 200.)

[PavePusher]

48. You have the only time-warp range I know of...!

Where/when is this facsinating place? :D

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

52. They make an M-1 carbine.

[laconicsax]

2. The A-Team always beat the Army. I think that answers your question.

[Deep13]

9. I'm not getting a Mr. T haircut. nt

[old mark]

3. The Ruger is not as accurate or reliable as a halfway decent AR.

Mini 14 was designed as a sporting carbine, for ranchers, etc - it's not up to heavy use. The various AR 15 knockoffs are designed far stronger and will take much heavier long term use and they are very accurate to around 300 meters (I know this from experience with the early M-16s from the late 1960's).

The "Tricked out" Rugers are pretty much toys.

If you want a .223 semi auto, I'd recommend an AR.

BUT, I'd personally recommend a Savage Bolt action in .223.

FWIW, my only semi auto rifle now is an old Chinese SKS, and my centerfire bolt rifles are both .308's.

mark

[Deep13]

10. The accuracy problem has pretty much been solved.

The retooling and the new heavy barrel models have solved the problems caused by the car AM radio antenna barrels of traditional models. Anyway, for driving tacks, I use the Savage model 12 bolt-action. Or a small hammer, whatever is handy.

Do you think an AR is really more reliable? (I'm asking because I don't know.) The Ruger has a regular bolt mechanism like the M-14, a piston-driven action and is made of steel. Plus they feed from a proprietary steel magazine. My understanding has always been that AR15/M16s are pretty touchy, prone to misfeeds from the aluminum magazines, get hot and sooty and are just weird from an engineering point of view. Am I all wrong on this?

[old mark]

22. Most of the problems with the M-16 have been solved - they work better clean, though.

Back when I was a young stud with good eyes, I could keep an M16 knocking down targets at 300 meters all afternoon easily.

The Savage 112 is a great rifle for accuracy, and reliability.

mark

[TheWraith]

4. I would go with the AR. The Mini-14s usually aren't very accurate.

There's exceptions, but with most of them you're talking about at least 2-3 minute of angle shots, versus 1 MOA with the AR.

[Deep13]

12. The new Minis come with factory heavy barrels.

The reasonance caused by the drinking straw barrels is no longer a factor.

Anyway, I have a Savage model 12 for tack driving.

[eqfan592]

5. Honestly, I'd keep the 9mm carbine and get an SKS or something similar.

SKS's are reliable and can be had inexpensively. You can also totally replace the stock if you wish, giving you an AR-15 like 6 position stock for adjustable length of pull. You can also mod them with different sized magazines and even removable ones. They really are a lot of bang for your buck (if I had a little more buck, I'd get one myself).

Also, I'd put in vote as well for an M1 Garand. You can get nice ones for around $500 from the Civilian Marksmanship Program.

A pistol caliber carbine is a really handy thing to have, especially because of the low cost of 9mm ammo when compared to any rifle ammo. I'd be very hesitant to give mine up (I have a HP 995 9mm carbine).

And lastly, 92 magazines??? Holy hell in a hand-basket, man! I bet you NEVER have to worry about reloading a magazine while you're at the range! :D

[Deep13]

13. Just in case you are not pulling my leg...

...I mean it uses the same magazines as the Beretta 92F/FS/90-Two pistols and not the plastic Px4 storm pistols.

Either of the carbines I'm considering will shoot .22LR with a conversion kit.

[eqfan592]

23. lol, I seriously did read that as you having 92 mags for it. :P

My bad then, man. :P That's another point to keeping it though. Easy availability to magazines. :)

I didn't realize that a .22lr conversion kit was a make or break point. If it is, then I'd agree that you'd be better off with an ar-15 than a mini-14, IMHO.

[Deep13]

27. Well, being able to shoot it at the indoor pistol range in the winter...

...would eliminate the justification for keeping the pistol-caliber carbine and a rifle carbine.

I mentioned the mags. for 92FS pistols because carbine models that use them are not all that common. So if I want a carbine that takes the same ammunition as my Beretta 92 pistol, this is the one to have.

[krispos42]

6. AR-15s are more accurate

Although I bet that stiffer barrel would help a lot with the Mini-14's accuracy.

Mini-14s have a reputation for being more reliable and jamproof, however. And you're getting a lot of stuff for the money with that package deal there.

:shrug:

How good a shot are you? Are you skilled enough that the extra 0.25 or 0.5 or 0.75 MOA the AR will give you would be noticable on a paper target?

[Deep13]

15. Not freehand.

With a bench-rested Savage model 12 (big, heavy varmint rifle) I can sometimes put several rounds in one hole at 100 yrds. (.223)

With a CZ .22LR bench-rested, I get one ragged hole at 50 yds. or mostly within the 3" target at 100.

With the Beretta carbine or the Marlin 1894c shooting .38 I usually hit the 5" target at 50 yds. freehand. With the Marlin shooting .357 mag. from a rest, I get a little better than that at 100 yds.

Sadly, the weather and daylight limitations mean I shoot pistols more often than rifles.

[benEzra]

7. If the mini is new production (serial number starts with 580- or higher)

then it's a decent gun. If it's pre-580, I would avoid it (I owned a 188-series mini-14 Ranch Rifle for many years, and while it was absolutely reliable, it was less accurate than an AK shooting bottom-of-the-barrel ammo). If it's 580 series, then I'd consider it. BUT, even a 580-series mini is not going to be as accurate as an AR-15, and magazines are much more expensive and harder to come by (you'll want more than 1). I personally prefer the AR, but handle the mini and decide if you like it. The fact that it already has a light and optic are points in its favor; they can be expensive.

As to .22 conversion kits, I believe they do exist (Ceiner/Ciener makes one, can't remember how to spell it), but if you're counting on it, verify that before you buy. I know .22 conversions are available for AR-15 type rifles.

[X_Digger]

14. 22 conversion kits for ARs - 4 mfgs

Ceiner, Spike's Tactical (my recommendation), CMMG- all these are based on the ceiner with Spike's being the most reliable I've used.

There's also an Olympic Arms m-261 kit that is based on / was used by the air force for training.

[Deep13]

17. I have an AR .22 kit from when I had that AR target rifle.

Frankly, I thought the AR was a pain in the ass, especially when it was time to clean it.

[benEzra]

30. Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant mini-14 .22 conversions.

I *think* Ceiner is the only one.

http://www.22lrconversions.com/mini-pg.htm

[Deep13]

16. It's brand new.

I handled both. They're both pretty ergonomic.

[benEzra]

19. As long as it's not a new-in-box pre-580, it's a good gun.

It comes down to what you prefer, I'd say. The mini is a little less complicated (except that putting the bolt back in after disassembly is like assembling a 3D puzzle) and has the safety in the trigger guard; the AR, of course, has a thumb safety.

If I were getting something with defense in mind, it would have a light or the potential for mounting one, and red dots are nice, so when comparing costs be sure to factor those into the AR price. Sounds like the Ruger isn't a bad deal, though.

Oh, just to mix it up a little, Ruger now makes a gas-piston-driven AR, too...

[aikoaiko]

11. I liked my mini-14, but I'd chose an AR over it

Yes, you'll spend more on a basic (non tricked out) model, but it will make you happier in the long run.

CDNN has great deals on CMMG rifles($800-900) and AIM has great deal on a low end Del-ton model($650).

My Mini-14 happened to be a fine shooter, but I gave it up after spending too much money on bad hi-cap mags. Now that Ruger is making hi-cap mags that is no longer a problem for Mini-14 owners.

[Deep13]

18. The dealer has Bushmaster, Colt and Rock River AR carbines.

They run from about $900 for the plain model (with telescoping stock) to about $1400 with picatini fore-end and heavy barrel.

[aikoaiko]

24. I would probably choose a plain jane RRA AR over the tricked out Mini

This is probably a small thing, the AR will likely handle 5.56 and mini-14 is probably .223. Check the barrel of the ARs as they sometimes are .223.

[Deep13]

28. Either one will take 5.56mm.

I checked. If the Mini only took .223, I would not even consider it.

My Savage mo. 12 will only take .223 Rem. That's typical for a bolt action. I has less clearance for headspace allowing for a tight fit and maximum accuracy. Auto loaders need things to be a little looser.

[geniusiknowit]

20. If it's a SHTF gun,

then you want reliability in SHTF environments. Recommend shying away from anything that uses direct impingement. Get a gun that will run well when dirty with little maintenance.

[Deep13]

21. Thanks for honoring me with your first post.

Welcome to DU. Here you will find gun enthusiasts and those who want them all banned.

The gas impingement is what I have never liked about the AR/M16 system. I understand it makes a light-weight system, but it makes it hot and filthy too.

[benEzra]

31. If you like piston guns but like the AR...

then how about the Ruger SR-556?


http://www.ruger.com/products/sr556/index.html?r=y

It's an AR, but with a very good piston setup, and yes, it's a Ruger. I'd like one myself.

Added on edit---dunno if you'd be able to get a .22LR conversion for this one, though.

[Deep13]

33. Honestly, it's the price. ...

...and the added weight and the fact that unlike the regular AR15s, there is no one piston-driving system common to all of them. I would want to see which piston variants become VHS and which become Betamax before getting into that. The dealer I use retails Bushmaster piston driven uppers only for about $1100. That 16" loaded ATI Mini 14 is $1100 complete and a regular AR carbine with telescoping stock, medium heavy barrel and no other extras is about $1100. He has an 18" Mini-14 all-weather version for $700 or $800 (no extra gadgets.)

[AtheistCrusader]

38. It looks like a high-speed low-drag meat tenderizer.

No bayonet required for melee contact.

[Artie Bucco]

25. A saiga .223

You can buy mag converting adapter for them that costs about $130

[Deep13]

29. I'll look into that.

It's an AK variant isn't it?

[AtheistCrusader]

26. I like my Mini-14 better than my AR-15 carbine.

But my AR was made by the angry beavers over at oly arms, so it's not necessarily an indictment of all AR's.

[Deep13]

36. Not so good on their QC?

This dealer has mostly Bushmaster plus a few Colt and RR.

[AtheistCrusader]

37. Angry. Beavers.

I figure every fifth person on their assembly line is in fact, not a human, and is instead a pissed-off beaver. It uses it's teeth to assemble parts on the weapon. Angrily.

Seriously, the fit and finish is awful. Granted it's a pre-86, so quality may have improved in recent decades, I don't know.

[Euromutt]

43. OIyArms is a lot better these days

I think they underwent a major overhaul around 2000-2001, and they've been pretty decent since then. Not a top-tier manufacturer, but roughly on a par with, say, DPMS. I have one of their K3B carbines, and I'm very pleased with it. It works just fine, never had a malfunction.

[oneshooter]

32. I have had Rugers and currently have 8 AR-15 style rifles

The comment made by Bill Ruger "Nobody need more than 5 rounds" turned me off of ALL Ruger products. The AR-15 style rifles are very dependable, parts are readily available (Ruger parts are factory only), accurate, and easy to learn. The Mini-14 is a scaled down M-14 action, hence the name, and is rugged as all git out. But when it breaks the rifle needs a gunsmith to fix it!!
The best, most accurate 22 conversions are the dedicated uppers. They are a Little pricey, $400-$600, but are a LOT more accurate. This being said I have 2 of the Ciener units and have no problem with them. Accuracy runs from 2" to4" at 50yds, and recoil is practically nonexistent! I use the conversions, and a dedicated upper as training/teaching rifles.
Hope this helps.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[Deep13]

34. "Nobody need more than 5 rounds"

Yeah, my Marlin 1894 carbine holds nine.

I don't NEED any rounds. That's not really the point, Bill.

[Deep13]

35. Have you seen the Colt .22LR dedicated ARs?

Pretty nifty.

[Euromutt]

44. Bill Ruger's dead

Whatever ill-advised comments Bill Ruger may have made in the day, there's not much point in continuing to punish the company for it.

[Irreverend IX]

39. I'd advise an AR-15...

They're way more accurate than a Mini-14 and you'll have a lot more options when it comes to aftermarket parts.

If you want to get one cheaper, don't buy a complete rifle but instead get the upper and lower receiver separately. Stag makes an affordable and very reliable lower receiver, and CMMG and Bravo Company Manufacturing make good uppers that aren't too expensive. Not all AR-15 uppers are created equal, and common brands like Bushmaster and Rock River have some reliability issues that the better ones don't. If you watch for deals, you might be able to put together a complete AR for under $800. Also, the upper receiver is not legally considered a firearm so you can have it shipped to your door.

If you really want to learn the details of what makes a good quality AR, check out this forum thread: http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?s=9d0fc6a684173bf968b7003826cc781a&t=81462

Also, if you want a "SHTF" gun that's really accurate, ergonomic and reliable and you're willing to spend more, I'd tell you to drop the $1600 for a Sig 556. Not too much aftermarket stuff for it, but it has the reliability of an AK with Swiss-grade accuracy, and it takes AR-15 mags.

[Deep13]

40. I saw some of those Sigs.

You're right about accuracy and reliability, but they are heavy.

Really? Bushy are RR can be unreliable? To tell you the truth, I had a Bushmaster AR15 target rifle that was a little touchy sometimes. I traded it in because I really didn't like the AR as a bench-rest target rifle. I have a Savage m.12 now. A hand-supported carbine is a different story.

[jeepnstein]

41. A tricked out Mini...

is still a Mini 14. Anything a Mini can do, an AR can do better.

The AR15 is wildly popular for good reason. It's light, tough, dependable, accurate, and parts are easy to find.

If you shop carefully you should be able to find a decent AR for well under a thousand dollars. My DPMS was about $750. It'll shoot rings around any Mini I've ever seen.

[Deep13]

42. Ah, but you have not seen the new heavy barrel units.

Can you tell me how they compare to shoot in terms of recoil and ability to stay on target? The AR does not have a huge bolt and the recoil is pretty mild (at least with a 24" heavy barrel). Is the mini much worse?

I have a good relationship with the dealer, so anything I get will be from his stock. The popularity of the ARs is apparent from his display racks. About 20 ARs of various configurations including an AR10 with a 28" heavy barrel. He has two Minis, an 18" all-weather model and the 16" ATI unit.

[benEzra]

46. Even the older pencil-barrel mini's don't kick much...

although they will rotate a teeny bit more than an AR because the barrel sits higher relative to the contact point with your shoulder. There is definitely more reciprocating mass, but I don't know that it makes much difference in terms of felt recoil.

16" barreled AR's don't kick much, either, though I can't compare them to a 24" because I've never shot a long-barreled AR.

FWIW, a 16" barreled mini should be *slightly* more accurate than a longer barreled model, all else being equal. Make sure it has a flash suppressor, though (16" barreled .223's without flash suppressors are downright annoying to shoot because of the muzzle blast, to me).

[Deep13]

47. Thanks. I'll make sure I get a suppressor. nt

[benEzra]

51. It may already come with one. (n/t)

[jeepnstein]

54. If you really want the Mini, go for it.

I've never seen one yet that really shot well. Maybe you'll strike gold with the new and improved Mini.

The AR has the Mini beat in every category as a fighting gun. If that's what you are considering getting then stay with an AR.

Recoil isn't an issue with 5.56 no matter the platform.

[Euromutt]

45. I like ARs for the modularity of the design

You want to try a different caliber, you can buy a new upper with appropriate magazines, which has the advantage that an upper isn't considered a firearm, and thus doesn't require going through an FFL. If you want to try something different with a Mini-14, you have to buy a complete new rifle, which generally costs more than an AR upper.

[Francis Marion]

50. AR

Spot on- if you buy the mini, you're pretty much stuck with it. With the AR, you can change it around easily to suit different roles. Mini barreled receiver is a firearm, AR barreled upper receiver is not, and thus is easy to buy them. A vast industry exists to design and offer hardware choices for ARs.

The Beretta carbine is a pistol caliber arm, not a rifle caliber arm. Technically, the AR fires an intermediate caliber- more than a pistol, less than a rifle.

AR would be the choice to serve any changing purpose you want later at low cost.
The AR will familiarize you with the current US service arm, a skill I think all adults should know how well.

Do not sell the mags for your AR that you already have, because they might get banned down the road and you will wish that you still had them.

Fore whatever arm you select, get at least a dozen standard capacity magazines. Standard AR capacity is 20 or 30 rounds. Again, this is for political reasons, as they may be banned at any time, and you will wish that you had them after the fact.

In terms of shooting precision, design choices and service rifle similarity, the AR is a great choice. The only wrong choice is to buy a rifle and then not learn how to shoot it well.

[Lurks Often]

49. Get the AR

Get the AR-15, it is a modular gun with a wealth of after-market options. Decided you wanted a pistol caliber carbine after all, get the 9 mm upper conversion, a mag block and it'll accept 30rd Uzi magazines. Want something that'll shot 1/2 MOA groups, buy a different upper. Want something that hit's a lot harder, get the 450 Beowulf upper. I like Ruger's and own a bunch, but the Mini-14 isn't one of them and even Ruger is making AR-15's now.

[Deep13]

53. I picked up the SW M&P-15 yesterday.

It has a quad rail instead of the regular fore end and fold down sights. It has a floated barrel.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=65066&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=33803&isFirearm=Y

By the way, I didn't pay anywhere near what the list price is.

[jeepnstein]

56. Good pick.

I think S&W is putting out a pretty nice rifle for the money. About the only thing you'll need to consider is some sort of optic. Oh, and lots of magazines and ammo. Now you get to worry about ACOG versus Aimpoint versus Eotech. That and a Surefire light will have you pretty nicely set up.

I'm seeing AR's being discounted again. The panic buy must be over for a while. If ammo would come back down to Earth it sure would be nice.

Run your AR wet, use lots of Break Free and it'll be as dependable as they come. I know some guys like to use Mobil One but I find it tends to trap too much dirt and creates an incredible mess. Whatever you use, use lots of it. Be sure to break it down and inspect and clean it before the first trip to the range. Make sure everything is properly staked, clean, and wet.

[Deep13]

57. I think I will get a 2-7x35 scope.

For now I have a decent, but not military quality, holographic sight that I put on it. It was on my Beretta Cx4 Storm.

Part of the package deal was a coupon for five free Magpul 30-rounders. I already have three 20s and two 30s of the aluminum variety. And I have the Ceiner .22LR kit. I briefly had an AR with a long, heavy barrel awhile ago and kept most of the accessories when I sold it.

And yeah, if the oil is too viscous it will trap all that crap. I use the special AR15 oil (forgot it's name) for the AR and my SW .22 pistol. Everything with a locking breach gets the Mobil One.

My dealer actually cleans and inspects everything before it goes on the display rack.

[jeepnstein]

58. Five Magpuls?!!!!

That's a great little addition.

[benEzra]

62. Very good choice, I think! (n/t)

[jimmyflint]

55. The mini is good

For under $400 over $400 you are better off with the AR. But for under $400 you will be hard pressed to beat a mini.

[Deep13]

59. This Mini was with the ATI stock and a bunch of electronic gadgets...

...the heavy barrel and the Ruger 20-rounder. It's $1050.

[chibajoe]

60. The AR is the more versatile choice

In addition to the .22 conversion that you already own, AR uppers can be had for most pistol calibers and just about every rifle caliber. The AR will be more accurate and easier to shoot than the Mini-14, and retain more of its value should you decide to sell it. In addition, if you shop around, you should be able to find a comparably equipped AR for not much more than what your dealer is asking for the Mini-14.

[Deep13]

61. Well, the one I bought wasn't cheap.

It came with free-floating barrel, quad rail forend, flat top, collapsing stock and fold-down iron sights. It's the SW M&P-15. I know the dealer well and wanted to buy from him. He had Bushy H-Bars with the regular sights and forends for about a grand. I put a Bushnell red dot sight on it for now since I had one anyway. Eventually, I'm going to put a small scope on it. I have a Burris FFII 2-7x35 on my Marlin .357 and that works pretty well.