Yet another family tragedy west of Portland

[depakid]

Father, mother, son dead in Bethany

Chandubhai Suthar last spoke with his 9-year-old grandson, Ronak, a week ago. The fourth-grader had become sick after Halloween, and Suthar wanted to check on him. Ronak, who stayed home from school, said he was keeping busy with video games his father had bought him.

"He said, 'I'm doing OK now. I like the video games that they bought for me,'" Suthar said Wednesday afternoon from his San Jose, Calif. home. That was the last time the families spoke. On Wednesday, an investigator from the local coroner's office visited Suthar to give him the shocking news.

Suthar's son, Mukesh Suthar, 44, his daughter-in-law, Varsha Suthar, 39, and his grandson had been found shot to death in their Bethany-area home, authorities told him. A gun also was found, Suthar said. The Washington County Sheriff's Office said Wednesday the deaths were an apparent homicide-suicide.

More: http://www.oregonlive.com/washingtoncounty/index.ssf/2009/11/three_bodies_found_in_home_in.html

This in addition to the family/workplace killings on Tuesday: http://www.oregonlive.com/tualatin/index.ssf/2009/11/tualatin_shooter_was_easy_to_miss_say_one-time_classmates.html

Those of you who think you're "good guys" or making yourselves and your loved ones "safer" might want to think again. This could be your legacy, too,

[saracat]

1. Wow, how many is this now? Something needs to be done.

No matter what the gun rights folks think. And we have guns at home. My husband is a champion marksman and former member olf the NRA. So save the 2nd Amendment arguments folks. Crazy folks and idiots should not have guns. Period.

[Ineeda]

2. Sadly, people who keep guns for self defense or sport think it could never happen to them

or their loved ones. No matter how expert at handling a gun, people can and do get careless, have accidents or snap. People get drunk or otherwise impaired - or angry, depressed, hopeless, desperate. Then, when a gun is handy...

[pipoman]

4. ...or a knife, or a car, or a bat, or a hammer, or a.....n/t

[iverglas]

49. ... all of them commonly used

to commit MURDER-SUICIDE.

I'm sure you can link us to dozens of reports of MURDER-SUICIDE BY HAMMER.

[Euromutt]

5. I suggest you read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker

The fact is that, no matter how often after some high-profile killing the news media say something like "nobody could have foreseen this," this almost invariably turns out to be false. People almost never "just snap" and become homicidal. There are always what de Becker calls "predictors" but to a large extent, we've been conditioned--and have conditioned ourselves--to ignore them when we notice them, to suppress the voice in our head of our own intuition screaming at us that something is very, very wrong.

As an extreme example, de Becker cites the case of a woman who was attacked outside her apartment complex by a guy wearing a ski mask. In summer. In Los Angeles. But despite this being obviously wrong, her intellect went into denial and tried to rationalize it--"oh, this guy's just going skiing"--and the resulting hesitation cost her valuable seconds.

A lot of these domestic tragedies might have been averted if neighbors and family had been willing to recognize warning signs for what they were and intervene. But we want to tell ourselves, "oh no, that sort of thing doesn't happen in our neighborhood." Until it does, and when it does, the availability of a firearm is really secondary.

[EFerrari]

11. That book is just brilliant. And especially his section on stalkers

is so right on. :thumbsup:

[iverglas]

50. "intervene"

... and do ... what?

Take their gunz away????

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_2tggLZ2rGkg/SbLNF_3CmOI/AAAAAAAAGxE/7FVdsU_2hdg/s400/gasp+copy.jpg

Oh, I know. Get them some cooouuunselllling. If you only had a better healthcare system ...........

But of course, let them keep their gunz while they get it.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. None of these things are necessarily true of the general public.

Some of us don't drink. Some of us appear incapable of despair, or hopelessness. I suppose I get angry sometimes, but I don't connect anger or even rage to the destruction of another human being, regardless of the available means.

Are you projecting? Do you have these feelings, or doubts about your own ability to restrain yourself around firearms?

[eqfan592]

12. So are you suggesting intelegence tests for basic rights now?

I agree that somebody who is certifiably insane shouldn't own a firearm, but really, sometimes bad things just happen. Sometimes people just snap. There's no amount of legislation in the world that can ever prevent that. Sometimes, legislation simply isn't the answer.

As for "idiots," it kinda falls under the same thing. I've known plenty of shockingly intelligent people that have done some really stupid stuff, or got really careless in one area or another. Again, that's just human nature to a degree.


Knee-jerk reactions to horrible things such as in the OP are simply not the way to legislate public policy, even though depakid thinks it's the only way. It's just not what rational people do.

[saracat]

14. Rational people do not slaughter their families. Stricter licensing and

gun education requirements should be in place.

[eqfan592]

17. Rational people snap.

There's just nothing you can ever do to prevent that. Even licensing wouldn't work. We do that with cars already, and look how effective THAT is. People do more stupid shit in their cars and get more people killed every year than with firearms.

Sorry, but your just way off the mark.

[Euromutt]

42. While I'm not opposed to that idea in the abstract...

...it's happened a few times too often in the past that a mandatory training/licensing scheme has been used by sheriffs and mayors to impose a de facto gun ban by not holding the required classes, or holding them at inopportune times and locations with little or no notice, or "losing" the paperwork. Unless you're one of the sheriff or mayor's golfing buddies and contributed generously to his political campaign fund, of course. Gun control in practice has always been about keeping firearms out of the hands of those people; blacks and other ethnic minorities, immigrants, the working class, etc. Those kinds of shenanigans have poisoned any honestly well intentioned effort at gun control.

[iverglas]

51. isn't that what the NRA is for?

Up here in benighted Canada, the requisite training courses are offered by approved gun clubs. Not by any government agency. I'd 'a thunk you people could figure that out too.

If I had a government official who "lost" my paperwork or failed to perform any other duty of their office, they'd find themselves in court post haste. And they wouldn't be losing any more paperwork or failing to perform any more of their duties.

I do so pity you people down there. No constitution, no rule of law ... no elections ...

[taurus145]

58. Applying your reasoning on Mr. Garnett in the UK

you'd have no good excuse for lost paperwork, regardless of the reason or who lost it.

Apples never equal oranges however much you'd like it to be so. Pick a side of the fence and stay on it.

Yes, I've read many of your opinions about low post counts. I read the forums here for 6+ years before joining. I had a life, education, and experience for well over 50 years before joining DU. That dog won't hunt.

[rl6214]

46. "Rational people do not slaughter their families"

But irrational people will find a way to do it with or without a gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates

[slackmaster]

21. People who have been adjudicated as mentally incompetent already can't have guns under federal law

That includes crazy folks and idiots.

But crazy folks and idiots do have rights like the rest of us. They have to prove they are crazy or stupid before their rights can be taken away.

[iverglas]

52. and yet victims don't have to prove

that they are evil before their lives can be taken away by crazy or evil people whose gunz weren't taken away.

Huh, eh?

[rl6214]

45. Agreed

What do you propose to stop crazy people from doing things like this?

[Euromutt]

3. Let's look at some other murder-suicide stories in the recent news

Gatineau, QC, Oct 19 2009, "One dead, one hurt in attempted-murder, suicide"
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/dead+hurt+attempted+murder+suicide+Gatineau/2117266/story.html

A man is dead and a woman recovering in hospital after an attempted-murder and suicide in Gatineau early Sunday.

A 43-year-old man attacked a 47-year-old woman with a knife at 40 Rue de Gentilly at about 4:40 a.m., said Const. Isabelle Poirier of Gatineau police. He then turned the knife on himself, she said.

Newton, MA, Oct 20 2009, "Elderly couple found dead in apparent murder-suicide in Newton"
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/10/elderly_couple_1.html

An 86-year-old man used a knife in what authorities described today as a murder-suicide, fatally stabbing his 86-year-old wife in the neck before cutting his own throat.

Londonderry, NH, Oct 22 2009, "Police Investigate Apparent Murder-Suicide In Londonderry"
http://www.wmur.com/news/21392516/detail.html

Police say Binh Vernet attacked his wife at their home on Fiddler's Ridge then fled the scene. Vernet's body was later found in Massachusetts -- police say he took his own life.
<...>
Police said Suzanne Vernet was beaten repeatedly with an object until she was unconscious. Suzanne Vernet suffered life-threatening injuries. She was flown to Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston where she was pronounced dead.

Kendall Co., IL, Oct 25 2009, "Inquest reveals brutal nature of Kendall murder-suicide"
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/beaconnews/news/1842387,2_1_AU25_CLAWSON_S1-091025.article

There are few knowable details left to learn about the murder-suicide that ended the lives of Kari Clawson and her boyfriend Steven Hogan last month.

From the start, officials have characterized the deaths as a domestic argument out of control that ended with Hogan stabbing Clawson, then shooting himself, in a condominium on Light Road in Kendall County.
<...>
Clawson had been stabbed four times: in the right breast; in the sternum, which punctured her heart and lung; the cavity of her chest, which also punctured her lung; and into her forehead, <Det. Matt> Hogan said.

Bell Gardens, CA, Oct 25 2009, "Mother Dead, Son Wounded in Apparent Murder-Suicide Attempt"
http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-mother-son-murder-suicide,0,3737199.story

A woman was found dead of blunt force trauma and her son was found with suspected self-inflicted knife wounds in what police believe was a failed murder-suicide.

Queens, NY, Nov 7 2009, Police: Queens Couple Dies In Apparent Murder-Suicide
http://ny1.com/8-queens-news-content/top_stories/108600/sources--queens-couple-dies-in-apparent-murder-suicide

Authorities say they received a 911 call around 1 p.m about a stabbing and found the bodies of Paul Johnson, 47, and Regina Alston, 46, in a house at 109-65 Liverpool Street.

Alston had multiple stab wounds, while sources say Johnson hanged himself with a dog leash in a stairwell and had cuts on his body.

Family members say Johnson waited for Alston and one of their two daughters to return home before the attack, though the girl escaped unharmed.

See the common thread running through these reports? People are perfectly capable of murdering their significant others by means other than firearms. This is not a problem that mysteriously affects only gun owners, and it's not a problem that wouldn't happen if it weren't for private firearm ownership.

While compiling these reports, I also came across some analysis peieces that surmised that there has been a recent uptick in domestic murder-suicides, and that the main cause is the state of the economy. Which makes sense on the face of it; there's nothing like dire financial straits to drive people to extremes, and they'll use whatever they have available.

(You know, in the event that I ever completely lose my shit and decide to off myself, possibly taking my wife and kid with me, I'm going to make sure I don't use a firearm, just to piss off people like you.)

[Ineeda]

6. Not denying the pro-gun arguments but what about my post is false?

[Euromutt]

8. The idea that gun owners are liable to "snap" in a way that non-gun owners aren't

I don't know how often I've encountered the "what if you lose your temper or snap in some way?" argument, intended to illustrate the risk of keeping firearms in the home. My answer is always the same, and I have yet to receive a convincing rebuttal.

In seven years of marriage, I have never so much as raised my hand to my wife. In fact, I've never raised a hand to a significant other, or gotten in a physical altercation with friends. It would have to be an extreme rage indeed that would make me go from physically non-violent straight to homicidal. In the (highly unlikely) event that I were overcome by such a rage, why would I refrain from trying to kill my wife or guest merely because there was no gun in the house? There are plenty of alternatives in any American home that can used as lethal weapons, from kitchen knives to baseball bats and hockey sticks, fire extinguishers and I even saw mention of a guy who bludgeoned his girlfriend's mother to death with a TV tray table last year. If I really wanted to kill someone, there's no reason to let the absence of a firearm stop me.

And then, I feel entitled to turn the question around: do you ("you" being whoever is posing the "what if you snap?" question) consider it likely that you would fly into such a murderous rage that you would attack a loved one with a lethal weapon (improvised or otherwise)? Have you ever attacked a loved one with an improvised weapon? And if not, on what basis do you assume that I'm less emotionally stable than you are?

And the fact is that practically nobody ever "just snaps" without warning. Domestic killings are typically the culmination of an escalating pattern of domestic abuse and violence, until either the abuser goes all the way and kills the abused, or the abused kills the abuser in self-defense.

[Ineeda]

9. Never said gun owners are more, nor less, likely to 'snap.'

but DOJ and FBI statistics show that the vast majority of homicides are committed using guns. (Around 70% compared to all other weapons.) "Homicides are most often committed with guns, especially handguns. In 2005, 55% of homicides were committed with handguns, 16% with other guns, 14% with knives, 5% with blunt objects, and 11% with other weapons." Bureau of Justice Crime Statistics

[Ineeda]

10. More statistics

2006 CDC
Mortality
All homicides
* Number of deaths: 18,573
Firearm homicides
* Number of deaths: 12,791
All firearm deaths (includes homicide, accidental and suicide)
* Number of deaths:30,896
Note: Statistics do not include injuries (deliberate, accidental or self-inflicted) due to firearms

[eqfan592]

13. The problem with your numbers, though....

...is that they only work to prove a point about firearms if you could prove that having fewer firearms legally available would somehow reduce the homicide rate. You have to prove that by simply not having a gun in the home, that these people would NOT snap and NOT try to kill somebody else. If you can find numbers supporting that, then your argument has validity. But these numbers alone do not give your argument any validity at all.

[Ineeda]

16. Your point is that

you cannot prove what didn't happen. I agree. To be fair, there is also the question of how many attacks have been prevented by a potential victim being armed. There is validity in that point of view also. However, the statistics I quote are measurable - hard, fast, concrete numbers, not 'what-if' numbers. The standard pro-gun argument is that guns aren't the only weapons used in killings. But firearms far outweigh other methods and are therefore a problem. I admit I don't know what the solution is, but you must admit those numbers are horrifying. I believe Australia, upon strengthening its gun laws, greatly reduced its-death-by-firearm rate. I would hope that most people would agree it would be a worthwhile effort to try to do the same in the US.

[eqfan592]

18. Look at the numbers in Australia.

The death by firearm rate was already on a downward slope when the enacted their new restrictions, as was their overall homicide rate. There was a slightly faster dip in the death by firearms rate after the restrictions, but the overall homicide rate continued it's same, slow decline.

In other words, the restrictions did nothing to speed up the decline of the overall homicide rate. People just moved to different implements.

You can't solve violent crimes with gun/knife/etc. restrictions. You have to go after the CAUSES of violent crime, which are various socioeconomic issues such as poverty, education, etc. Anything else is just "feel good" legislation that doesn't actually help anything.

[Ineeda]

20. On this we totally agree:

... You have to go after the CAUSES of violent crime, which are various socioeconomic issues such as poverty, education, etc. (peace)

[eqfan592]

22. Good deal.

Common ground is always an awesome thing to find :)

[Euromutt]

28. To reinforce eqfan592's point

The issue is that raw gun death statistics don't tell you anything about the circumstances of the deaths. You can't tell from the numbers how many of these killings were "zero-to-60-in-5-seconds" killings; the criminological evidence, however, indicates those are actually damn few. Something in the order of 90% of homicides are committed by people with a prior history of criminal behavior: convictions, multiple arrests, police responses to domestic "disturbances," that sort of thing.

Both perpetrators and victims of homicide are disproportionately young black urban males: the demographic most likely, due to socio-economic circumstances, to be drawn into the illegal drug trade. Part of it is the settling of "business disputes" (you exactly can't take your competitors to court), but the resulting brutalization carries over into the settling of other conflicts (over girls, "respect" or the lack thereof, etc.). There's probably a certain amount of similar behavior among other ethnic minorities (Hispanic, Asian) in particular urban areas: that report from UPenn on numbers of people being shot in Philadelphia while carrying a firearm indicated that victims were disproportionately Hispanic, for example. (Note that I'm not suggesting that ethnicity is the cause of violent criminal behavior, but rather that ethnic minorities in certain areas are more likely, due to socio-economic circumstances, to be drawn into criminal activity. In plain English: because they're more likely to be poor, have less access to education, etc.)

And similar patterns are emerging in Europe, where young male members of ethnic minorities are disproportionately likely to be involved in criminal activity; Afro-Caribbeans in the UK, North Africans in France, Moroccans in the Netherlands, Turks in Germany, etc. etc. It seems to manifest in particular among third-generation (or more) immigrants, who no longer have a strong connection to their forebears' country and culture, but still aren't treated as full members of their host society. Not unlike African Americans, not to put too fine a point on it. Possibly, the reason this problem seems more pronounced in the United States is that African Americans have several generations' lead on Europe's ethnic minorities, who only started to arrive after sixty to forty years ago (with decolonization, and the immigration of "guest" laborers in the 1960s).

And when you're talking about people involved in the illegal drug trade, or other forms of organized crime, you're talking about people who are unlikely to be prevented from acquiring firearms by restricting their legal availability. These are people who are involved in a business that involves smuggling contraband--be it narcotics, trafficked humans, whatever--into the country of operations. If they can bring in large amounts of illegal narcotics, or shipments of human beings, in spite of this being hideously illegal, there shouldn't be any insurmountable obstacle to bringing in firearms and ammunition. And indeed, organized criminals (and unorganized ones) in western Europe have no problem acquiring firearms, largely smuggled in from eastern Europe. The number of firearms in criminal hands is dictated by demand, not supply: if criminals feel they need guns, someone will come along who's willing to supply them.

As I said earlier, the overwhelming majority of domestic homicides are the culmination of an escalating pattern of abuse and violence. None of them come out of nowhere. Essentially, people don't commit homicide without warning, unless they already have a propensity for serious violence (which is a warning sign in itself) A lot these homicides--and suicides--could probably be prevented if people were more willing to acknowledge predictors of violence, and act on them.

Speaking of suicide, while it's true that firearms are the leading means of suicide in the US, the American suicide rate is not remarkable compared to those of other rich industrialized countries, and lower than, say, France, Germany, Sweden and Japan. What it comes down to is that who attempt suicide will use what's available; thus, in the US firearms are most popular because they are available, whereas in the rest of the world, self-strangulation (e.g. by hanging) is the most common method. And I suspect that if the prevalence of firearms were severely curtailed in the US, self-strangulation would quickly take over as the most popular method here. There's no way you can outlaw rope, neckties, belts, scarves...

[spin]

29. Excellent post! (n/t)

[eqfan592]

36. Agreed, GREAT post!! (nt)

[saracat]

15. A Gun is a vastly more efficient method of mass destruction that a knife.

Of course there are some examples of knives but it is usually a person by person event. Beserk persons with guns much more easily mow down large numbers of people than those with knives.this is a specious argument at best. Our soldiers do not head to combat with knives, nor do our police officers patrol with knives. How often do you hear the phrase"Stand back, I have a knife"?

[eqfan592]

19. Guns are a vastly more effective means of self defense, as well.

Like anything else dealing with civil liberties, there is a trade off. Deal with the causes of violence, not with the implements that people choose to use to perpetrate the violence. If all you're willing to do is go after the implements, then you'll never actually solve the problem.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. Yet five police officers will riddle a suspect with bullets, if he waves a knife at them.

Happened not too long ago here in Seattle. They were perfectly justified in doing so.

'Easily' is a direct function of marksmanship, by the way. I'd rather face some clown with a firearm and no idea how to use it, than a knife. Also, both our soldiers and police carry knives as backups. For our soldiers, they attach them to the end of the rifle and use it as a poking stick. It works. It never runs out of ammo or jams.

[eqfan592]

25. This is true.

The old "pike" was such an effective implement of war that nobody has ever wanted to fully give it up. :)

[Euromutt]

26. I believe we were discussing domestic murder-suicides

It doesn't require a firearm to murder one's loved ones, as the stories I posted serve to illustrate.

[Tejas]

7. OMFG, 3 deaths out've the 40-50 US average per day, did you have a point?

Must be Police Blotter month again.

[depakid]

27. Two sets of preventable tragedies but for gun proliferation...

[spin]

30. And what suggestions do you have to stop gun proliferation? (n/t)

[Euromutt]

31. Yep, murder-suicides just CANNOT happen without guns...

Didn't I just post a stack of news reports of murder-suicides that were committed by means other than firearms? Do you suffer from assimilation bias so strongly that you just cannot process the idea that it's perfectly feasible to murder one's spouse with a kitchen knife, or a lug wrench, or even a TV tray table? The homicide rate in Russia is about four times the US's, and they mostly beat each other to death over there.

[oneshooter]

32. How about knife proliferation...

Stabbed man dies in front yard.

A man has been charged with murder in connection with the stabbing of a 32-year-old man in Sydney's south-west yesterday.

The 53-year-old man allegedly stabbed his victim repeatedly during an argument at a house in Derby Street, Canley Heights, about 4.30pm.

Lets see..... the assailant "snapped"....... no gun used........ victim dies
Nope that one doesn't count.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/stabbed-man-dies-in-front-yard-20091113-icq9.html

Continue your hypocrisy

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[friendly_iconoclast]

38. But Americans killed with guns are deader than Australians killed with knives!

Either that, or killing someone by stabbing them to death is morally superior to shooting them.

The OP will have to clear this up for us...

[friendly_iconoclast]

39. Wait, I forgot. They don't like discussing the murders their countrymen commit.

Easier to keep the illusion of somehow being better than those stroppy Yanks that way, y'know.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

33. After all firearms are the only way for anyone to kill anyone else or themselves.

[gorfle]

34. Ergo, they are not preventable.

Two sets of preventable tragedies but for gun proliferation...

Ergo, they are not preventable. We are fortunate to live in a society where the right to keep and bear arms is an individual, Constitutional right. Access to firearms is easy. Anyone who has money can buy one.

There will always be people who abuse this right. It's the cost of the freedom.

[rl6214]

47. Bullshit

[proteus_lives]

35. Ok, that's a tragedy. Why shouldn't law-abiding, sane people be allowed to have guns?

Why should millions be punished for the crimes/insanity of the minority?

He could have burned his house down, used a knife, poison. Or driven them into a lake that mom in Texas. Should we ban knives and cars?

Do you accept the fact that millions use guns safely and legally everyday? And always have? Do you acknowledge that?

[Tejas]

40. OP has the Rep Carolyn McCarthy syndrome

Uses instance of 2-3 people shot as ammo to ban guns in the entire country.


There's got to be a name for this syndrome.

[Euromutt]

41. Let me try to head off the obvious response to that

Namely that it's possible for a sane, law-abiding person to find himself in circumstances that cause him to cease to be such. The current economic crisis is driving a lot of people to desperation, as they get laid off, or have to take pay cuts not to lose their jobs, they find themselves hard-pressed to pay the bills, find themselves threatened with repossession of their cars, foreclosure on their houses, what have you. The resulting desperation can drive people to do peculiar--including bad--things.

But even so, people never "just snap." In each of these incidents, there has to have been a process leading up to the crucial moment where the husband (usually the husband) decided to kill his spouse, possible children, and then himself. The key to prevention is having someone available to notice the warning signs, and act on them. And that can be difficult, given the conditions of relative social isolation that a lot of people, especially migrants, find themselves in.

Take the victims in the OP: going by the names, they're Indian immigrants (which might limit their social contacts locally), and the closest family they have lives a day's drive away (I happen to have in-laws in both Portland and San Jose, so I'm familiar with the distances involved). I'm an immigrant myself, but I married an American citizen, and the overwhelming majority of my circle of acquaintances locally are my wife's family and friends (friends she made before she met me). If we'd both been immigrants, we'd have a lot fewer people in a position to notice something might be wrong and readily intervene. It's a risk of social isolation.

And again, I stress that this murder-suicide could just as readily have occurred using a knife or any other potentially lethal weapon. The guy had a gun available, and he used that, but that's no evidence that he wouldn't have done what he did if he hadn't had a gun. And for all we know, they guy had good reason to own a gun: racism is no stranger to the Pacific Northwest, unfortunately, and there have been a few attacks on people from the Indian subcontinent in my area (southern King County) in the past year alone that local prosecutors ruled to be racially motivated.

[proteus_lives]

53. Well said.

Economic, cultural, mental health. We must address and work on the root problems rather then the self-defeating gesture (And that's all it is, a gesture) of banning tools.

[Euromutt]

43. Incidentally, I think you're confusing Susan Smith and Andrea Yates

Or driven them into a lake that mom in Texas.

Susan Smith was the one who murdered her two sons by rolling her car into a lake with them inside (and tried to blame it on a fictitious black car-jacker), but she's from South Carolina, not Texas.

Andrea Yates is from Texas, but she murdered her five kids by drowning them in the bath tub.

[proteus_lives]

54. Thanks for the info.

I was mixing them up.

[aikoaiko]

37. Are all the victims of violence who didn't have firearms to protect themselves your legacy?

Those of you who think you're "good guys" or making yourselves and loved ones "safer might to think again -- right back at you.

[depakid]

56. Play the roulette wheel

Let's say fear of bad guys is even odds.

[rl6214]

44. This was where?

West of Portland, Australia?

[rd_kent]

48. They were MURDERED! By a PERSON!!!

But never let the facts get in your way......

[depakid]

55. By persons who wouldn't likely have done so without easy access to guns

What's so hard to understand about that?

[Euromutt]

57. Not believing your assertion is not the same as not understanding it

I refer to my post #3 above with various examples of comparable murder-suicides committed by means other than firearms to illustrate why I find the claim highly implausible that these incidents would not have occurred were it not for the fact the perpetrators had firearms. People are perfectly capable of killing their spouses and/or children without firearms; Japanese do it literally every day, despite the almost total absence of legal privately owned firearms. And as those news stories I posted show, it happens in the U.S. as well.

So on what basis are we supposed to believe that, were it not for privately owned firearms, domestic murder-suicides wouldn't occur?

[depakid]

59. Denialists and idiots- hard to tell the difference

They'll will say absolutely anything to justify an obsession....

Yep- easy access to guns don't increase the incidence of this behavior. LOL.

[rd_kent]

60. You're right, it doesnt.

Its a bitter pill to swallow, but the truth will set you free.

[friendly_iconoclast]

61. Some people would prefer to ignore or elide these sorts of things

For example, this account of a similar tragedy completely ignores the role of firearms in events like these :

http://www.smh.com.au/national/suspect-resented-father-and-sister-20091112-icfx.html

Maybe you could tell us what kind of gun the killer used, and how he got hold of it?

[Euromutt]

62. So which one are you?

Because unlike you, I've actually provided some evidence for my contention. You might try using some yourself sometime.

[rl6214]

63. Argue for useless crap in your country

Leave ours alone.