Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Umm how come I didnt see this on tv??

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU
 
winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 11:37 PM
Original message
Umm how come I didnt see this on tv??
PTSD, Meds, and the Back Door Gun Ban


Vets, seniors, anyone with ptsd, on anti-depressants, etc and anyone the government psychiatrist or lawful authority says...can be banned for life to have a gun.

This bill is already headed to Obamas desk I understand but I never saw anyone asking the American people on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsdSjde0r18&feature=player_embedded
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Pre existing condition.
Did anyone ask Big Pharma?






Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
2. I've seen some comments on this on different forums including DU...
The news media spends a lot of its time on celebrities and their encounters with drugs and their sex lives.

One thread on DU which discussed this is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x267329
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. crazies n nuts have a constitutional right to own and use guns too nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Your ignorant snark not withstanding...
Those Rights, by law, may only be taken away by due process, i.e. through the courts.

Some people are currently trying to make it administrative matter of course. How would you like that process applied to other Rights?

Get a traffic ticket? Lose your Fourth Amendment Rights by default.

Mis-calculate your taxes? You don't need that silly First Amendment Right...

See how this works? I don't want the Bill of Rights to be sausaged away in any way, shape or form.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. That's not what bothers me....
Edited on Thu Nov-12-09 12:59 AM by winyanstaz
What bothers me is who gets to decide who is crazy and nuts and cannot have a gun...and without going through the courts or doctors to do so!
When a single psychiatrist can take away your rights just on their say so......something is dreadfully wrong.
I knew the son of our town's psychiatrist and that child was messed up something aweful. I would hate to think his daddy could decide anything about anyone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. What really irks me is their exercising free speech rights and posting on DU. N/T
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Isn't it interesting how
the gun forum is the one area of DU where it is 'cool' in some circles to be the antithesis of progressive and/or liberal....shameless it is...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-16-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. Please (re-) read the 5th Amendment (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
7. So... does gun ownership lead to paranoia
or is it that paranoid people buy guns.

It's quite a stretch to say that anyone treated at some point for depression is now "a danger to themselves or others" and therefore should be "banned from owning a gun for life". That's quite a (paranoid) leap.

And given the list of people who have been involved in shootings AND who have been prescribed anti-depressants, maybe they SHOULD surrender their guns until they are off the medication (or, better, never get on the medication to begin with).

As for vets with PTSD... I have a nephew-in-law who has PTSD. And it's a damn good thing we live way out in the boonies (he and his daughter live in a trailer home on my property). Every night he "goes on patrol" with an AR-15 slung over his shoulder and his combat boots and camo on. Makes two or three rounds along our fence line anywhere between 2am and 5am. Since we live in southern Arizona, I worry that some night he is going to come across some illegals working their way north from the border. I don't think he'd shoot, but then, he really is back in Iraq for those hours. Maybe he shouldn't really have a gun.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Care to provide that list?
And given the list of people who have been involved in shootings AND who have been prescribed anti-depressants, maybe they SHOULD surrender their guns until they are off the medication (or, better, never get on the medication to begin with).

Or can you provide a link to such a list, at least? It' be more persuasive if it weren't on the site of the Brady Campaign or the VPC or a similar organization; they've been known to--shall we say?--stretch the truth.

Also, when you say these people had been prescribed anti-depressants, do you mean that they were taking anti-depressants, or that they should have been taking anti-depressants but weren't actually taking them?

And are you actually suggesting that it would be preferable for sufferers of major clinical depression to avoid taking anti-depressants?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. The list is on the OP's link (about 2/3 of the way into the video). - n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I see a possible conflation of correlation with causation there
Full disclosure: I am speaking as someone who is both a gun owner and has been diagnosed with major depressive disorder, and had the latter treated with trazodone, and later sertraline (Zoloft).

Right, well, I found the page that list originally on http://ssristories.com/index.php

The first obvious problem with the hypothesis that there is a causal link between SSRIs and both suicide and homicide is that anyone who has been prescribed an SSRI has presumably already been diagnosed with some psychological disorder, most likely depression. Why multiply entities beyond necessity (to paraphrase Occam's Razor) and blame the medication when the disorder itself provides an adequate explanation?

Moreover, the list relies heavily on the 2004 FDA black box warning, which itself was mostly ass-covering based largely on one study, of which the author later (see "Suicide and SSRI Medications in Children and Adolescents: An Update" in the AACAP's DevelopMentor http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/developmentor/suicide_and_ssri_medications_in_children_and_adolescents_an_update) has this to say:
In the Summer, 2004 issue of the DevelopMentor I wrote an article on the suicide risk posed by serotonin reuptake inhibitor medications (this article is available in the DevelopMentor archive under the topic “SSRIs”). At that time I outlined in detail the issues prompting the FDA to place a black box warning on all antidepressants. It has now been almost three years since the FDA issued the black box warning for all antidepressants due to elevation of suicide ideation and behavior. The data showed a small increase in suicidal thought and behaviors, from 2% in the placebo groups to 4% in the medication groups, when data from all trials for all indications were combined. There were no completed suicides in any of the studies conducted on antidepressant medications. The FDA issued the warning despite evidence that increasing prescriptions for SSRI antidepressant medications was clearly correlated with decreasing rates of actual suicide, and use of antidepressant medications was not associated with suicide in any prior studies.
Emphasis mine. It's important to note that suicidal thoughts and behaviors ("ideation") do not equal actual suicide attempts, let alone completed suicides.

The author also notes that exactly one study has come out (in 2006) that associated SSIs with increased risk of suicide, against several others that found no association. In this context, it is important to understand that the term "associated with" in medical literature tends to be given a lot more weight than it deserves, because what it really means is "we found a slight statistical correlation, but we can't demonstrate a causal relationship." The phrase "linked to" is even worse, usually indicating that there were some anecdotal caes of X happening concurrently with or shortly after Y, but not even a statistical correlation could be established.

In other words, the evidence that SSRIs cause an increase in suicides and homicides is very, very thin; must thinner than the evidence that they cause a reduction, at least after the first month. The danger periods are the first month after going on them, and after going off them. Note that quite a number of the cases listed on ssristories.com are of people on SSRI withdrawal.

Moreover, it should be noted that in something like 30% of cases, SSRIs simply do not work for the patient in question, which might have an exacerbating effect in that the patient's expectations of feeling better (i.e. less bad) are not met, resulting in disappointment, hopelessness, etc. Also, there is always the risk of misdiagnosis; psychological disorders are tricky, and it's possible that a number of the cases in question were sufferers of bipolar disorder who were misdiagnosed as having major depressive disorder. Major depressive disorder is also known as "unipolar disorder" to distinguish it from bipolar disorder (which used to be known as "manic depression"); the distinction is not merely academic, as the two disorders are quite different in mechanism (though they may manifest in similar ways), and antidepressants have at best limited effectiveness against bipolar disorder, which is more commonly treated with mood stabilizers like lithium carbonate and lamotrignine. In fact, SSRIs alone (without a mood stabilizer) may do more harm than good in sufferers of bipolar disorder, possibly inducing or exacerbating rapid cycling between states of mania and depression, which in turn may cause psychotic symptoms. In such a case, it's not that SSRIs aren't any good, it's just that they're the wrong tool for that particular job.

The long and short of it is that there a lot of possible explanations why someone on SSRIs might still suffer a homicidal/suicidal episode, and very little evidence that the SSRIs are the causal factor in such episodes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
taurus145 Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 03:17 AM
Response to Original message
8. I missed it, too
Just another piece of our rights being stripped away.

At this rate, our Bill of Rights is going to look exactly like Newspaper Rock. (For those who aren't familiar with Newspaper Rock, Google it.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
13. I was impressed with the long list of people and events posted in this forum that were able ...
to protect their bodies, their families, their homes and their businesses...simply because they were armed..and yet I have never seen such a good long list on the main forum...all I ever see there is a lot of fuss about getting rid of guns everytime some nut goes out and kills a bunch of people
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Remember this is a progressive forum...
most progressives have no concept of just how progressive an idea The Right to Keep and Bear Arms really is. Often they just want to cover their ears with their hands if someone even mentions the idea.

So many pro-gun posts are condemned to the Gungeon, where the majority of the members of DU don't dare to venture.

But the Democratic Party is slowly becoming more pro-gun. If you live in the big liberal cities in the North East and the West, you may not observe this phenomenon. But pro-gun measures such as shall issue concealed carry laws are now common to the majority of states.



The liberal Democrats who believe in draconian gun laws including the confiscation of all firearms are rapidly becoming a minority in their own party.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
15.  It is not important, continue with your simple lives.
Edited on Fri Nov-13-09 05:49 PM by oneshooter
If it was of any importance then the Media would inform you. Since they did not means that it is none of your business, and you will be better off not knowing. <Sarcasm tag not working>

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
16. This was promoted ruthlessly in GD on DU about a year ago.
Not sure of the exact quote but it related to the idea of returning Vets vs firearm availability here in the US.


"Something has got to be done about guns, it won't be long before we'll have 140,000 trained killers loose on our streets"



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lurks Often Donating Member (505 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
17. Not true
H.R. 2640 in the youtube clip is a bill from from June 2007, not 2009. (The 2009 HR 2640 has something to do with recycling or fuel economy)

As I understand it, there were some changes to the background check that people adjudged mentally defective or who had been INVOLUNTARILY commited to a mental institution would be banned from purchasing guns. While state law will vary, that is something that requires more then just one doctor's say so.

There are always a number of rumors about the latest and greatest gun-control bill that is just about to pass or be signed into law. I would suggest doing research when you hear these rumors, since virtually all are myths, bills without any co-sponsors or bills that never got out of committee.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 19th 2024, 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC