Questions about armor-piercing ammunition and the Brady Campaign's Five-seveN vest test

[derby378]

From what I can tell, USC Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Section 922(a)(8) prohibits the sale of armor-piercing ammunition to civilians, but I don't see anything in Title 18 that prevents civilians from actually owning AP ammo. Are there Federal penalties for civilian possession of AP, or is it relegated to a legal gray area akin to possession of absinthe?

As for the Brady Campaign, they claimed that SS192 rounds fired from a Five-seveN pistol were able to penetrate a Level IIa vest, although the BATFE does not consider the SS192 or the current SS197SR to be AP. Is there any independent data on the vest itself regarding age, condition, brand, etc.?

Many thanks for any info.

[RC]

1. Where do you live so we can keep an eye on your local web newspapers.

You know, for any happenings out of the ordinary.

[derby378]

2. Pfffft!

You're no help... :P

This is for research purposes only. Just want to keep my facts straight before I go opening my mouth.

[Travis_0004]

3. Info from the ATF

The SS190 (a specific model of the 5.7x28mm round) is considered Armor Piercing. It is not for sale to civilians anywhere in the US. Although the sale is banned, I don't believe the possession is, so I guess its possible to get some, but very difficult.

Other ammo for sale is not considered armor piercing, and will not go through most bullet proof vest (source=ATF)

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm

[aikoaiko]

4. This is a question for the box of truth.

[AtheistCrusader]

5. The BATFE has already tested it, and it will not penetrate III or IIa armor, therefore

it is legal for civilian use. End of story.

[aikoaiko]

6. I'm not sure what your point is?

The nice thing about DIY gun tests is that you get to confirm official sources and see for yourself. What's wrong with that?

:shrug:

[AtheistCrusader]

7. Is there something wrong with the methodology of the BATFE test?

Technically the brady test is an 'independent' test. Yet the results were horseshit.

Vest ratings are clinical and specific. The Box o'truth is not. There are MANY problems with their methodology.

The Lock versus Shotgun test leaves the locks hanging with no backstop, a condition that prevented most firearms that are fully capable of destroying the locks from doing so. On the multi-sheet drywall tests, the drywall is sitting in slots, not nailed every 3-5 inches, 16" on center to 2x4's, which will impact how easily it buckles.

BOT's tests are, for the most part, fun but not valid.

[aikoaiko]

8. I'm not inclined to disagree with the BATFE results, but I still wouldn't mind seeing it for myself.

The BATFE tests may be the end of the story for you, but not for me. The OP asked for independent data from the two sources and there is nothing wrong with that either.

[AtheistCrusader]

10. Since the BATFE tends to ban things controversial

first and ask questions later, that they came out with a finding that this weapon is 'fine' speaks volumes, I think.

The State of California tested it too, as they have some rather restrictive 'assault weapon' rules. Again, the weapon came through 'fine'.

If I were to predict the outcome based on perceived bias, I would have expected the opposite result.

[Euromutt]

11. Minor correction: "level II or III-A body armor"

Level III-A is the highest level of "soft" body armor before you start getting into ballistic plates intended to stop rifle rounds (levels III and IV). I think, for practical purposes, that anything that fails to penetrate level III-A when fired from a "regular" handgun (excluding those ridiculous AR-15 "pistols") or pistol caliber carbine cannot be considered armor-piercing.

[AtheistCrusader]

12. I'm pretty sure the report was IIa

crap, now I have to wade into the BATFE's screwed up website and find the PDF of the report.

[Euromutt]

14. I have one ATF link

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm

FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the "SS196." The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.

According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing.

It doesn't entirely cover the topic at hand, because the SS196 was discontinued in favor of the SS197SR, which is essentially the same round, only loaded for a muzzle velocity about 100fps higher than the SS196. Still unlikely to penetrate a level II vest, though.

[Euromutt]

9. Level II-A body armor isn't rated to stop much of anything

According to NIJ standards 0101.04 & 0101.05, ballistic protection level II-A is rated to stop a 9x19mm 124-gr FMJ, or a .40 S&W 180-gr FMJ. It'll probably do slightly better against JHP rounds, but either way, it is the bare minimum for ballistic protection at this time.

Level II-A will not stop 9mm +P loads, .38 Super, .357 SIG, .357 Magnum, let alone anything more powerful. It's not so much that these rounds are intended to be armor-piercing, but rather than level II-A body armor isn't designed to stand up to something with that kind of velocity. That's why patrol cops typically wear level II or level III-A.

As for possession of AP ammo by a private citizen, you appear to be correct that it is not illegal to possess it. However, there is no way to acquire it that does not involve somebody breaking the law. You can't manufacture or import it yourself, and anyone authorized to manufacture or import it is prohibited from transferring it to you. The law was probably worded the way it was to "grandfather" in any AP ammunition that any private citizens might have possessed prior to the law being adopted.

[TheWraith]

13. The BATFE has certified the Five-seveN civilian ammo as non-AP.

They probably used an old or decayed vest, deliberately in order to get penetration. Also, Level IIA isn't really used in any serious situations. IIIA is the new standard for urban police.

[benEzra]

15. It is illegal to manufacture AP handgun ammunition for non-LEO civilian sale

but the 1986 law IIRC grandfathered existing ammo so that it wouldn't unwittingly make felons of regular gun owners and collectors; the 1994 redefinitions of popular small and intermediate centerfire rifle calibers as handgun ammo for the purposes of the AP law were likewise not post facto, so if you have a box or two of early '90s import Chinese FMJ (mild steel core) then you are not a felon.

BTW, the Brady Campaign performed a sleight-of-hand; a level IIA vest is not even rated to stop .357, and are considered obsolete for police use. Vests that police actually wear (II and IIIA) will stop any nonrestricted rounds from a FiveSeven, just like they will stop nonrestricted rounds from a .357.

[Lurks Often]

16. ugh

Since this was undoubtedly triggered by the tragedy at Ft. Hood. I don't see the connection, Sgt. Munley was the only person shot who might have been wearing a vest, and she was hit in the legs and arm, which the vest doesn't cover. This is just another despicable attempt by the Brady Campaign to use a tragedy to further their own political agenda.

The fact that ATF and the State of California have both determined that the ammo used in the FN FiveSeven is NOT armor piercing, should be more the sufficent proof.

[Endangered Specie]

17. It is actually pretty easy to 'fake' a armor test to show something is AP when it is not

Simply do not put ballistic gelatin on the OTHER side of the body armor vest/sample. A vest is designed assuming there is a body in it, without it, what would normally be stopped by a worn vest will cut through a vest that is just hanging out there w/o anything behind it.

[PavePusher]

18. Or putting it against a hard wall/concrete/metal plate... n/t