Some Guns-n-Church tales from this year

[struggle4progress]

New Jersey Church Shooting Suspect Tries to Kill Self
Tuesday, January 13, 2009
NEWARK, N.J. — The California man charged with gunning down his estranged wife and two others in a New Jersey church was in stable condition after trying to kill himself Tuesday ... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,479821,00.html

New Life Church shooting victim speaks out prior to Ted Haggard media tour
By Alan Prendergast in Follow That Story
Wednesday, Jan. 28 2009
... A Vietnam vet and former New Life member, Bourbonnais was wounded in Murray's shooting spree and was initially (and correctly, it seems) hailed as a hero in the incident for trying to distract the shooter ... http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2009/01/new_life_shooting_victim_speak.php

Alleged gunman in Portland church shooting makes first Oregon court appearance
By Maxine Bernstein, The Oregonian
January 30, 2009, 12:06PM
Latwan D. Brown, the accused gunman in the fatal shooting of a gang rival inside a North Portland church on Dec. 12, made his first court appearance in Oregon this morning ... http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/alleged_gunman_in_portland_chu.html

True grace: Family of Clifton church shooting victim meets organ transplant recipients
By Brian F. Donohue
February 09, 2009, 9:33AM
On Nov. 23, John Malloossseril was killed when he tried to intervene when a gunman began shooting inside the Clifton church were he was attending services ... http://www.nj.com/ledgerlive/index.ssf/2009/02/true_grace_family_of_clifton_c.html

Woman Shot Walking into Church
Updated 12:23 AM EST, Mon, Feb 23, 2009
A woman was shot and killed while walking into a Silver Spring church Sunday morning, according to Montgomery County Police ... http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local-beat/Woman-Shot-Walking-into-Church.html

Church pastor killed during service, police say
The pastor of a Maryville, Illinois, church was shot to death during a service Sunday in front of horrified church members who then tackled the gunman, state police said ... http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/08/church.shooting/

Shooting at California Korean Church Retreat
by Robert Koehler on April 8, 2009
... One person has been killed and three others critically injured after gunfire erupted at a Korean Christian church retreat in Temecula, southern California, reports CBS News affiliate KCAL ... http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/04/08/shooting-at-california-korean-church-retreat/

1 Dead In SoCal Church Retreat Shooting
http://cbs5.com/local/socal.retreat.shooting.2.979326.html

George Tiller Killed: Abortion Doctor Shot At Church
First Posted: 05-31-09 12:40 PM | Updated: 05-31-09 11:08 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/31/george-tiller-killed-abor_n_209504.html

Congregation comes together one year after two killed in sanctuary
* By Matt Lakin
* Posted July 28, 2009 at midnight
... Jim David Adkisson, an unemployed ex-soldier with a hatred for liberal views, smuggled a shotgun inside a guitar case into the sanctuary the morning of Sunday, July 27, 2008. His shots killed two people - Greg McKendry and Linda Kraeger - and wounded six others before members forced him to the floor ... http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/jul/28/moment-of-solidarity/

Mississippi: Church vandalized, shot, “KKK The South Will Rise Again” Graffiti
By R.E.A.L. Organization • on August 6, 2009
WJTV: “Madison Co. Church Vandalized”
WJTV reports:
– “The Madison County Sheriff’s Department is investigating a case of vandalism at a predominantly black church near Canton. The pastor says they found the damage Tuesday and have no idea who did it.”
– “Vandals targeted St. Matthews Missionary Baptist Church in Pickens. It’s on Highway 51 North about 10 miles outside of Canton. The vandals shot out windows, broke lights and etched graffiti on the building ... http://www.realcourage.org/2009/08/mississippi-church-vandalized/

Two Arrested In Church Hip Hop Party Shooting
Posted: 2:19 pm PDT September 7, 2009
SAN LORENZO -- Two people were arrested after several law enforcement agencies responded late Sunday night to a report of multiple gunshots at a party at a church in unincorporated San Lorenzo, according to the Alameda County Sheriff's Office ... http://www.ktvu.com/news/20779084/detail.html

5 suspects arrested in clergyman shooting
Wednesday, September 16, 2009
... The 911 call was made by Bishop Antonio Garduno at Our Lady of Tepeyac Catholic church. He told authorities he confronted four young men in the courtyard of the church and was shot ... http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/inland_empire&id=7017086

Wed, Sep. 16 2009 11:04 AM EDT
Wedgwood Church Marks 10th Anniversary of Fatal Shooting
By Aaron J. Leichman|Christian Post Reporter
Wedgwood Baptist Church in Ft. Worth, Texas, opened its worship center all day Tuesday for prayer, music, and video remembrances to mark the tenth anniversary of fatal shooting that had left seven people dead. Special services had been held two days earlier in recognition of the day Larry Gene Ashbrook walked into Wedgwood and fired over 100 rounds from two different handguns before taking his own life ... http://www.christianpost.com/article/20090916/10-years-after-the-wegwood-church-shooting/index.html

Shot fired through window of east Toledo church
Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:08 PM EST
By Joe Stoll - bio
TOLEDO (WTOL) - Folks who live near Sacred Heart Catholic Church on Oswald Street in east Toledo are upset after one of the church's stained glass windows was shot out ... http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=11307220

POSTED: 10-23-2009 12:57 PM ET | MODIFIED: 10-23-2009 05:54 PM ET
D.A.: Man Kills Self Inside Church After Shooting Girlfriend
A man shot his girlfriend in the parking lot of the Social Security office in Pottsville around noon today, according to authorities. They say police then followed the gunman, identified as Frank Manganiello, 51, of Schuylkill Haven, from the Social Security office in the 2200 block of West Market to the First United Methodist Church at West Market and 4th. The district attorney says Manganiello went inside the church and shot and killed himself on the altar ... http://www.wfmz.com/view/?id=1288165

Shooting at North Hollywood synagogue investigated as hate crime; man detained
October 29, 2009 | 7:56 am
... LAPD sources told The Times that the gunman approached the victims as they were about to enter the temple for morning prayers. The sources said the gunman pulled out his weapon and fired. The gun jammed at first, then he fired again ... http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/10/shooting-at-la-synagogue-investigated-as-hate-crime-man-arrested.html

POSTED: 11-02-2009 06:15 PM ET | MODIFIED: 11-02-2009 06:16 PM ET
Man Accused Of Shooting Church Leader Found Guilty
A Lehigh County man accused of killing the leader of a church in Maryland has been found guilty, but mentally ill, on all charges. Monir George faced first degree murder charges for shooting Malak Mikhail at a church fundraiser in Christiana, Delaware in May, 2008 ... http://www.wfmz.com/view/?id=1292319

[rrneck]

1. You could cross post this

in R/T.

[struggle4progress]

9. What an exciting and interesting suggestion! Stories of innocents, shot by wackos with guns,

could produce the usual rash of R/T responses about how it would be best if all religion were extirpated

[Katya Mullethov]

14. If it is any consolation

As surely as youre scratchin' your frshly shorn pate , they'll just let them out to do it all over again anyway . So noone is ever gonna run out of wacko oxygen thief stories .

[rrneck]

15. Not much different

from the rash of responses about how all guns should be extirpated.

Guns, religion, all same same. It just depends on how they're used and why.

[struggle4progress]

43. "Guns, religion, all same" -- Do you mean that guns are your religion?

[rrneck]

45. No. You're above petty flamebait. nt

[rd_kent]

31. Its horrible that wackos will use guns, knives or any other weapon they can find to

commit their crimes. It really does suck.

[eqfan592]

2. Well I'm convinced.

Religion needs to be outlawed!

[struggle4progress]

10. Another, and predictable, example of the depth of your thought, I suppose

[eqfan592]

11. Please.

You sit here all do posting anecdotal stories, thinking that somehow you're making a valid point? You're attempting to run a cost/benefit analysis, but without taking into account any of the benefit, and you want to talk about the depth of MY thought?

[struggle4progress]

12. Somewhat ... um ... inconsistent about objecting to anecdotal stories, aren't you?

[eqfan592]

13. Not in the least.

I've stated in several places that I don't think anecdotal stories on either side are all that great, and that it's just created a war of escalation between the two sides. You want to change anybodies mind, provide something with more substance.

[struggle4progress]

39. I just looked at 10 other anecdotal posts on page 1 of this forum and didn't find you objecting

[eqfan592]

46. That's because I don't typically bother posting in any of them.

I have, however, objected to them in other threads.

Unless the anecdote comes along with an actual point that's trying to be made, such as a solution to a particular problem, or too underscore the effectiveness of a particular solution, etc. This is something that is almost always lacking in any of your posts. You offer nothing substantive to the issue at hand. No ideas on how to solve any particular problems, not to mention evidence back up the effectiveness of those ideas.

[virginia mountainman]

3. More conclusive proof..

That "Gun Free" zones are pure bullshit, that will get you killed.

[eqfan592]

4. Ahh, I missed that point, virgina mountainman!

Good call! Thank you for bringing this to our attention, OP! Obviously, we as a nation need to re-evaluate the concept of "gun free" zones, as they are obviously a massive failure.

[aikoaiko]

5. You present a convincing case that CCW should be allowed in houses of worship.

And the anti-rkba crowd wonders why one would need to carry a gun in church.

Sadly, in my state it is verboten.

[Katya Mullethov]

6. Packing in church doesnt seem unreasonable after that

You present a pretty good case . And it took no small amount of time to rattle it out , kudos . A companion piece on the capabilities and limitations of frangible ammunition seems requisite at this point .

[xchrom]

7. kick

[eqfan592]

8. To hell with "kick"!

We need this as a sticky at the top of the page! It's a heck of an argument against gun-free-zones!

[beevul]

16. Great argument against gun free zones, with a bonus. Thanks for mentioning New Life Church shooting

The 2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings occurred on December 9, 2007, when Matthew J. Murray attacked the Youth With A Mission training center in Arvada, Colorado, and New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado. These attacks caused two fatalities in each location. The second attack was stopped when Murray was wounded by Jeanne Assam, a volunteer security guard. Murray then took his own life.<1>

It was also widely reported that the shooter matthew murray had 1000 rounds of ammunition on him at that church shooting.



Now, if YOU had made the rules prior to that shooting, how many dead would there have been?


A great example of how a mass shooting can be stopped.

And an elegant example of how bad it would have been - and lets not pretend here, it would have been bad, 1000 rounds remember - had LAWFUL possession of firearms been banned there.


Not exactly what you had in mind, eh sport?

[eqfan592]

17. But...but....

...I thought laws just magically made bad things go away???

Seriously though, awesome points, and a big +1 to you sir/madam.

[struggle4progress]

18. If you read all the stories, you will find that in a number of cases much smaller congregations

put an end to the attack simply by over-powering the shooter. At New Life,

... Murray .. was found with a rifle and two handguns ... Boyd .. estimated that 40 rounds had been fired inside the church ... About 7,000 people were in and around the church the time of the shooting ... The church had a total of 15 to 20 volunteer security officers inside at the time of the attack ...
Colorado Church Gunman Had Grudge Against Christian Group, Cops Say
Monday, December 10, 2007
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316322,00.html

A group of 7,000 people is not entirely defenseless against against an armed wacko. There was no chance he could use the rifle at close range, and regardless of how much ammo he had, he was going to have to reload. Perhaps the passivity of the congregation resulted from the many security guards present: if a few hundred people have thrown hymnals at him, they'd have knocked him flat. So it is really not at all obvious that the carnage would have been much worse if there had been no other guns present. Of course, members of the congregation were happy with whoever slowed the man down

[pipoman]

21. Never take a hymnal to a gun fight!...Surely you jest...

:crazy:

[struggle4progress]

27. *yawn*

:zzz:

[pipoman]

49. To put it more plainly

only a complete imbecile could minimize the success of the outcome being what it was...the use of a firearm by a volunteer to stop a mass murderer, in favor of an attack with hymnals by a group of church goers. fu-uh-uh-uk..

[struggle4progress]

52. It's just fear-mongering to claim a crowd of 7000 is helpless against one man with a few guns,

and you know perfectly well that I am not suggesting a hymnal is the ideal weapon against a loaded gun

Two people died at New Life Church, where the assailant was shot; two died at Knoxville's Unitarian Universalist Church, where the assailant was tackled

[pipoman]

53. OK

if a hymnal isn't the ideal weapon against a loaded gun, what is the ideal weapon?

[eqfan592]

55. Indeed, I would like to know this as well.

Because really, if he/she can't come up with something reasonable here, then this entire post/debate was totally pointless, other than to prove that he/she doesn't really have a clue about reality, and just wants to rant against guns.

[pipoman]

59. Yep, the silence is the answer...

[eqfan592]

60. Not a shock.

He/she should change their name to "struggle4pointlessness"

[eqfan592]

24. Wow, you've obviously never been shot at, have you?

It's a very rare person who can charge a person while their shooting. Not to mention, if THAT is the only option you're going to be willing to allow for self defense, you WILL have a much higher body count.

You've also never had to reload a semi-automatic firearm before. A person with some practice can have a semi-auto rifle or pistol reloaded and ready to fire in less than a second or even less.

Yes, it is VERY obvious the carnage would have been MUCH worse if a lawful person with a firearm hadn't been present. You lose credibility trying to deny this. You'd be taken seriously if you were at least willing to admit that much, because any attempt to try and deny obvious incidents such as these where legal firearm ownership and carry did save many lives only loses you credibility.

EDIT: And for the record, I have been shot at before.

[struggle4progress]

26. ... ... When he fired the second shot I rushed at him. My goal was to get the gun and get it pointed

up toward the ceiling. Then at least that would stop the shooting. When I got to him, I was coming at him from the side. I didn’t perceive myself to be in physical danger. There were three or four other guys rushing at him, too. He was down on the floor on his face with his arms pinned in two or three seconds. I wasn’t at all surprised that there were lots of us on top of him. If I’d had time to think, I would have said that that was what was going to happen ...

'I've never been so proud to be a Knoxvillean'
Historian John Bohstedt talks about tackling the gunman who killed two at Tennessee Valley UU Church; reflects on city’s response.
By Jane Greer
8.1.08
http://www.uuworld.org/news/articles/117599.shtml

[eqfan592]

28. Way to go, you've managed to find an example of it happening.

Never once said that it COULDN'T happen, only that it's a very rare person who is capable of it. And simply being capable of it doesn't equate to success either.

Sorry, but you continue to fail on all accounts. You use the logic and tactics of a freeper, and you should feel a deep level of shame for it.

[struggle4progress]

33. I didn't have to search for it: the example is from the list in the OP

[eqfan592]

35. And this makes it.....more important?

Is this your argument? Huh.....

[struggle4progress]

38. Of two hundred people in the church, four or five immediately set out to tackle the gunman

About twenty-five of the folk in church were kids; of the rest, presumably, many were not conveniently located. So your assessment "extremely rare" is inaccurate

[eqfan592]

47. And they were damned lucky

My assessment still stands. I imagine the 4-5 people had other family there, which is usually a good motivation to put yourself in harms way in order to protect them. And even with that, only 4-5 of the people did so.

Not to mention my assessment of "extremely rare" also included a success probability, which is typically going to be very low.

There are also many more incidents of mass shooting where nobody made a move to subdue the attackers physically, or if some did so, they did so unsuccessfully. These same people would have been significantly empowered had they been allowed to arm themselves appropriately, and would possibly be alive today, along with many of the people that were killed after them.

I'm sorry, but you have to be damned cold blooded to think that unarmed people rushing an armed assailant is the ideal solution.

[SteveM]

50. Hell, throw bibles at him, but open it to Leviticus, first (nt)

[rl6214]

19. Do you have a point to make here

Maybe a suggestion to make or a solution to a problem that you are not identifying here? OR ARE YOU JUST TROLLING?

[proteus_lives]

20. Well, you convinced me.

Let's strip Americans of their 2nd Amendment rights. :eyes:

[slackmaster]

22. It's too bad concealed carry isn't allowed in churches in most places

Maybe that would help contain this horrible outbreak of church shootings.

[krispos42]

23. Churches are a good place for a mass shooting

They are easy to visit and examine. Worship times are predicatable... typically there is a detailed sign out front. There are probably more elderly people there than average. Everybody is facing the front, away from the main doors at the back. Escape routes are limited, and in fact can usually be easily jammed/locked/chained from the outside without anybody noticing. Pews are too heavy throw and not heavy enough to really stop bullets. And because it is a "house of peace", people don't usually pack guns and in fact may be legally prohibited from doing so.


Essentiallly the same reason schools are, if you replace the elderly people with helpless children and "house of peace" with "center of learning".

[struggle4progress]

25. Thank you so much for pointing that out in careful detail for the benefit of whoever stumbles by

[eqfan592]

29. You started this thread, with full knowledge of the topics it would bring up.

If you have a problem then you have no one else to blame but your self.

[struggle4progress]

34. Wow. Now you claim I can foresee the future.

[eqfan592]

36. No, I'm just claiming that you have the basic intelegence required...

...to extrapolate some of the possible outcomes of starting this thread. Are you arguing that this is not the case?

[struggle4progress]

41. I have enough intelligence, not to give people advice on how to commit crimes. I won't be posting

any clever ideas about how to commit the perfect murder on any internet chatboards, for example: it's irresponsible, no matter how intellectually entertaining it might be in the abstract

[eqfan592]

48. You just did that very thing.

You just posted, in one nice package, examples of some of the most successful mass shootings in our history. Each one is a blueprint for a would be attacker.

What the person you were complaining about was doing was making it clear as to why no-gun zones are a BAD idea, because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the advantages of picking a no-gun zone as your place of attack if you are intent on going on a rampage and taking as many people as possible down with you. Having this fact understood is how we make good policy. Hiding these facts under a rug is how we end up with "gun free zones."

It's unfortunate your OP did not contain any useful insights beyond ones counter to your original intent. Unfortunate for you, at any rate.

[beevul]

61. Perhaps not, but you'll happily push for that enabling environment.

Gun free zones, that is.


Hollow ring to it, I'd say.

You as much as claim that people are giving instructions on how to perpetrate a mass killing, which is also a veiled admission on your part that gun free zones are ripe places for such a thing.


And yet quite regularly, you advocate that very condition.

[Merchant Marine]

30. Thank you

for glorifying those horrendous crimes in detail so the legacy of the murderers lives on to encourage others...

[struggle4progress]

37. What a clever argument for ignoring such stories! May I presume you are consistent enough

to regularly contact your local news outlets, encouraging them to ignore crime stories for the same reason?

[Merchant Marine]

40. I haven't owned a TV for years.

TV News is the dark, retarded sphincter of journalism.

[struggle4progress]

42. Well, then, I suppose you must use Google News to search out media websites that cover such stories

so you can fire off angry emails to them

[Merchant Marine]

44. Glad to see you don't appreciate

That you're perpetuating the cycle of violence.

[rd_kent]

32. Hahahahaha! Now THATS funny!

youre such a douche.

[krispos42]

57. It was mentioned in a gun magazine a few months ago.

:-)

[struggle4progress]

58. Oh, goody

[Katya Mullethov]

62. Hows the head today ?

Bump

[SteveM]

51. I don't think the your church examples had the intended effect.

BTW, there is at least on Catholic church in Canada that holds a service in which hunters AND their guns are blessed before the start of hunting season. Some great photos out there.

[struggle4progress]

54. Nah. I pretty much know what's down here in the basement.

[eqfan592]

56. Awww, how cute.

The people in the "basement" smack your ass around with a dose of reality, and you want to try and keep your head held high in spite of it. Well, you go on with your bad self!

But you still fail.