Just a reminder, for us, civil rights advocates here

[virginia mountainman]

In the mists of a renewed assault on the US Bill of Rights, from folks, that are using their emotions instead of the brains... Just a reminder, we are winning..

As shown in this graphic, that shows the vast preponderance of Shall Issue, Concealed Weapon permits states in the US.



Remember, the OUR fight goes on, even after these "newcomers" give up, and find something else that triggers the purely emotional responses that they so need to stay engaged. We where here long before, and will be here long after.

And don't forget, the long term trends, that clearly show, that the American People, are not in the mood for "feel good" legislation.

The day is rapidly approaching, when good Democrats, will see Sara Brady, Mike Boomberg, and Paul Helmke for what they are....Republicans whose sole purpose, is to cost Democrats electoral seats and elections.

Because that is EXACTLY what happens when Democrats follow them.......

[Chulanowa]

1. It's "midst", not "mists"; Just thought you'd like to know

n/t

[gleaner]

2. I stumbled in here ....

to look at your graphic, but I am hoping you can answer a question for me. The Fort Hood shooter purchased one of the pistols that he uses as a semi automatic, but I was wondering if it was one of the guns that can be easily if illegally converted into a completely automatic weapon.

Both my husband and I were wondering how so much damage could be done with two pistols, only one of which was semi automatic according to the reports we had heard.

Be assured, I am not trying to bait you or set you up in any way, I just want to know. I'm not a gun person. I know very little about them. My father was a collector and I learned to plink at cans and stuff, but that is about the extent of it.

[virginia mountainman]

9. No gun, that is on the market today,

Can be "easily" converted, if they can be, the BATF, would classify them AS machine guns, their are some very early AR15 type rifles, that fell into that category.

The FN pistol the Ft Hood shooter used, really and truly, was a hot rodded .22 caliber pistol.

THat is part of the reason it held so many rounds. Officer Hundley, was using the much more common, and LETHAL, 9mm round in her gun.

The FN 5.7 round is a very recent development in firearms tech, and their IS, armor piercing ammo for it, but it is ONLY available to the military or law enforcement. Their is no way to get this ammo, as a civilian in the US, without it coming from one of those two above mentioned sources. FN will not sell it to anyone else.

Here is BATF's report...Please DON"T BELIEVE THE MSM, they lie.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm

As far as "damage done' I would honestly assume, that the Semi-Auto, would me more deadly in a "mass shooting" situation. The reason being in a hand gun, your ammunition is severely limited, and small submachine guns, have a very high rate of fire. In other words, it would put down the FIRST one or two people that ran up to you, than you would be out of ammo. But if you have one or two targets, only, the full auto would be superior.

With a semi auto, you would be firing much slower, and would not waste ammo, on targets already "hit" instead of "spraying" one or two with a hail of bullets.

I hope this helps!! And thanks for coming to a fellow democrat instead of MSM for the facts of the matter.

[Old Codger]

12. deleted (self delete)

[Taitertots]

37. That is very misleading

It would be full auto until the slam firing caused it to fire out of battery and it explodes in your face. You should tell people that it is very dangerous and stupid thing to do. You are making this seem as if it is something other than causing the gun to malfunction. That is not a conversion, it is a dangerous malfunction.

[Old Codger]

47. I agree

I didn't say it was smart and you are very correct it is very dangerous at all times to tamper with any weapon in an attempt to make it operate in any manner which it is not designed to. I do apologize for that.. anyone reading this please believe me this is definitely dangerous and should never be attempted. I should have made that clear myself, thank you for calling me on it...

[gleaner]

82. Thank you...

to all four of you who answered my question. I think I understand better how the pistol could do the damage that it did. You were all very kind to explain it so clearly for me.

[X_Digger]

16. Guns that are 'easily convertible'..

.. are treated as though they already have been converted- they can't be imported and sold to civilians (the registry was closed in 1986). All guns created after 1987 are designed to not be able to be converted.

There's a persistent myth about 'parts' that can be bought at gun shows to convert your <insert gun here> to full auto. In the late 80's / early '90s, the ATF ran stings for these 'kits' in popular shooting magazines and at gun shows, trying to entice owners into breaking the law. The funny thing is that other branches of the government (namely Congress) used these ads as ammunition (pun intended) to gin up panic about 'assault weapons'. (See Chuck Shumer's report to congress in 1993 re 'Assault Weapons used disproportionately in crime'.)

The fact that all cases of these so-called 'conversion kits' were either ATF stings or con artists selling a bag of springs and screws to the gullible went right over their heads.

To actually convert most semi-automatic guns to their full-auto equivalents would require specialized parts that are restricted, a machine shop, and a lot of knowledge. If one had the skill to convert a gun to full auto by forging, stamping, or milling out the special parts, and modifying a gun to accept them, then creating a fully automatic gun of a simpler design from scratch would be an easier proposition.

The reason a shooter can do so much damage with even a revolver is that people panic. It seems the Fort Hood shooter planned his rampage well in advance. He probably chose an area with little cover for his intended victims; aimed at 'choke points'- where a large number of people trying to exit the area at one time would bunch up; and since he used two handguns, he was probably able to reload while keeping a 'live arm' ready in case he was 'rushed' during the reload.

[burrfoot]

17. There are

many folks in here with greater knowledge than mine, but I'd say it breaks down like this:

The handgun I believe you're referring to was an FN Herstal Five-Seven. This is a semiautomatic handgun (one shot per trigger pull, new round loaded by the action of the slide); and it would not be particularly easy to alter to fully automatic. In fact, although I'm not a machinist, I get the feeling that making a semi-auto pistol full-auto would be either impossible or very, very difficult. Prohibitively difficult.
Also, a revolver is "effectively" semi-automatic as well- that is, you pull the trigger once and you get one shot fired, and the next is loaded into the chamber by the rotation of the cylinder.

As far as the amount of damage, well...yeah. A modern handgun like the FN is an extremely efficient weapon. And, presumably, this guy had been taught how to shoot. One guy (or girl) with a gun in a room/area full of people with none- not to take anything away from the tragedy that occurred, but it could have been much worse.

As a point of interest, there's an argument to be made that a semi-automatic handgun can cause considerably more damage than a fully automatic one. Greater control, greater accuracy. I'm pretty sure even our soldiers don't (usually) use fully auto, even with their rifles- they do three-shot burst. Again, easier to control than fully auto.

** Edit: As I was typing this, I think three other people answered as well. Kudos to poster #2 for asking a good question, in a civil manner! We do enjoy discussing these things, when given a chance **


:toast:

[taurus145]

108. Fast shooting

While it's not actual combat, I usually put 31 rounds on target in under 15 seconds shooting steel targets.

In combat style comps, it's a great deal slower, but I double tap (shoot each target twice) in under a second.

One more thing to consider: The shooter was in a crowded room. I'd bet that some shots hit at least two or more people, especially those that didn't hit a large bone or center mass.

I know that sounds harsh, but the physics of bullets after they leave the muzzle can be a bitch.

[sharesunited]

3. An ersatz right. An artifact of American folklore.

You are the one suffering from an emotional response.

It is called gun love.

The harm you are causing far outweighs any good you could claim.

You need to get over this just as you got over superiority of the white race.

Yes, that was a dearly beloved founding principle too, now abandoned.

[ZombieHorde]

5. You are using a logical fallacy called ad hominem, or attacking the person.

"You need to get over this just as you got over superiority of the white race." <--- ad hominem

"The harm you are causing far outweighs any good you could claim."

Do you have any evidence for this claim?

[sharesunited]

7. Evidence that convenient means of capriciously administering mass death are harmful?

We hold these truths to be self evident.

[ZombieHorde]

14. No, evidence conceal carry laws are harmful. The map in the OP seems to be about conceal carry laws.

[sharesunited]

18. He might as well be praising popular bans against same sex marriage.

Has the same validity in terms of social justice.

[X_Digger]

20. So nothing actually related to the OP.. gotcha. n/t

[virginia mountainman]

33. Your so full of shit...

[sharesunited]

41. The OP puts up a map and says look the People have spoken.

Well the People have spoken against interracial and same sex marriage too.

It does not define the correct side of an issue. Agreed?

[virginia mountainman]

44. I said NOTHING about those issues?!

Your in the wrong forum... Let me lead you where you need to go.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=221

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=225

[proteus_lives]

78. We're not trying to take away anyone's rights.

That's your job. You have a lot in common with conservatives working against marriage rights. You're frightened of something and you think stripping/denying your fellow citizens of their rights will make everything all better.

[AtheistCrusader]

89. Yeah, but the trending is in the wrong direction for your camp.

Over time the United States is increasingly protecting the right of the people to keep and bear arms, in all manners, not just concealed carry.

Just like over time, the United States increasingly protected the freedom of people to marry interracially, and is starting to move on same-sex marriage. We just got 'all but marriage' passed in Washington. Guess what's on the ballot next year?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

62. Your polarity is reversed. Shall Issue is social justice in action

The 9 state that support bureaucrat capriciousness and the 2 that completely suppress concealed carry are the pernicious ones.

Gun ownership and empowered self defense are clearly progressive values. Your endless bleating to the contrary does not change those facts.

[virginia mountainman]

10. LOL what have you been smoking?? ROFLMAO!!

Why are injecting race into this discussion??

Is that how you "win" debates?

[sharesunited]

13. It is legacy which held us back but which we overcame.

Same with the bang bang shoot shoot.

[virginia mountainman]

34. It appears we are overcoming racist gun control laws...

[eqfan592]

57. What's funny to me is that you're on the morally repugnant side of this issue, shares...

...yet you don't even realize it, just like those who wish to ban same-sex marriage do not realize it.

[PavePusher]

53. Oh. You again. Sigh.

[Hepburn]

69. +1,000

[eqfan592]

75. lol, way to come in, AFTER share's been smacked down..

...and tack on your support. Very smooth. :P

[divideandconquer]

4. And the NRA is not a bunch of fascists

If guns made men free, the freest nations in the world would be Somalia, Afghanistan, Columbia, ad nausuem and Australia would be a gulag.

[ZombieHorde]

6. I agree "the NRA is not a bunch of fascists."

A good buddy of mine is a member of the NRA, and he is definitely not a fascist.

[sharesunited]

8. Perhaps a vigilante then?

[virginia mountainman]

11. Who said anything about vigilantes??

Stop projecting....

[sharesunited]

15. When you hold a loaded gun, you are saying I Will Decide Who Lives And Dies.

[virgogal]

21. Unless the other guy is holding a loaded gun too----then it's a draw.

[ZombieHorde]

23. I have held a loaded rifle and I never thought "I Will Decide Who Lives And Dies."

[slackmaster]

25. I've done so thousands of times and that thought has NEVER came into my mind either

Could the real problem here be...

Projection?

[sharesunited]

26. Why deceive yourself about this? It is precisely why you picked it up and held it lovingly.

[slackmaster]

31. "held it lovingly" sounds like more projection

I think sharesunited is afraid that sharesunited would become sexually aroused and excited about the possibility of killing someone while holding a firearm.

Seriously, that is what I think.

[friendly_iconoclast]

71. Don't you know "Guns cloud thought. Like Gollum and the ring."?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=247574&mesg_id=247581

[ZombieHorde]

40. No, I picked it up because my stepfather handed it to me so we could go hunting together.

He took me to hunter's safety classes, and when I graduated, he gave me a rifle. We went hunting together, but I was not really interested in the hunt, which disappointed him a little. My parents eventually sold my rifle to someone else.

Something that interested me about him when I was older was the fact he owned a .357 magnum, but the one time he thought someone broke into our house in the middle of the night, he chose a bat as his weapon. The "intruder" turned out to be my mother, thankfully, he realized the "intruder" was her before he attacked.

[slackmaster]

46. Two teenagers who were supposed to go shooting with me today couldn't because their stepfather...

Forbade it.

I have never met the man so I have to assume his motivation was simply protecting the kids. Their biological father was going to come along, but it appears his say doesn't count. Or maybe their mother was against it too. I'll probably never know.

But I can be sure of a couple of things: The kids really wanted to go, so they will resent it. Next time they have such an opportunity they'll be tempted to not disclose to mom and stepdad the real purpose of the trip.

I'm also sure they missed out on a free gun safety lesson by two expert shooters who have taught hundreds of people the basic safety rules and introduced them to safe and sane target shooting.

And they missed out on a very fun afternoon in the high desert.

BTW, my stepfather, a World War II veteran and expert firearms instructor, taught me gun safety and the fun of shooting when I was 10 years old. My brother was six. Neither of us have ever had a problem with a firearm.

[rrneck]

56. Project much?

[rl6214]

80. "Held it lovingly"?

Pull your head out and quit making shit up.

[rd_kent]

94. I think you are just jealous that YOU have NEVER been "held lovingly"....

Got mommy issues? Did she not love you enough as a child?

[slackmaster]

24. What a bunch of horseshit, sharesunited, I went target shooting with three other men this afternoon

We spent about three hours shooting military rifles at pumpkins 200-300 yards away and had a great time.

Sometimes when you hold a loaded gun, you are just indulging in a little harmless entertainment and testing your skill at an important martial art. As a matter of fact, that's what is happening MOST of the time when someone holds a loaded gun.

Lighten up!

:nuke:

[sharesunited]

29. Shall I take up a collection to buy you a Wii?

[slackmaster]

32. Use the money to get yourself some counseling

I honestly think you need it a lot more than I need a Wii.

[sharesunited]

36. How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the 2A?

[slackmaster]

39. The problem, I believe, has nothing to do with your view of the 2A

It's your inherent distrust of other people, and your desire to get into other peoples' business. You seem to be excessively interested in something you can't control - The kinds of tools other people can legally buy and keep in their homes, which has absolutely no bearing on your safety or that of anyone else.

[sharesunited]

43. Guns and ammo in the hands of the general public has no bearing on my safety?

Can you understand how unthinking that sounds to me?

[slackmaster]

48. I'm sure it sounds as unthinking to you as your fear sounds irrational to me

I'm in need of food.

Have a good night.

[eqfan592]

58. If that's "unthinking" to you, then obviously you want cars banned as well.

They are equally, if not more so, dangerous (I say more so because more people are killed in/by/with them than with firearms). What about propane tanks for grilling out? Those can be very dangerous in the wrong hands as well.

Buddy, your problem is trust. It seems you refuse to think that your fellow citizens aren't all murderous sociopaths. That sort of distrust is disturbing, and demonstrates a serious need for some sort of emotional therapy. Shares, seek help man. I'm being dead serious here. You really need it.

[JoeyT]

83. Not as much as you seem to think it does.

Strangely enough, amongst all the fearmongering over guns, the argument is rarely made that you can make far more destructive crap out of the random stuff lying around your house than a gun could possibly be. Sure, sometimes someone comes unglued and starts shooting at a crowd and causes a tragedy...And how much more tragic would it be if the person used an IED to take out a building full of people all at once? Would we then ban all the chemicals that can be combined to create rapid combustion? Where does banning dangerous things end? We'd be back to cooking on coal burning stoves and washing our clothes in potato starch. We could take them down to the river in our foot cart, since you could conceivably ferment manure to create combustible gas, so no horses. Then we can all die of food poisoning because we couldn't refrigerate food anymore since refrigerants could be used to kill people. Until then, we could live off the land and hunt game with sticks. Wait, sticks are weapons too, so that's right out.

Shall we force everyone to chop off their hands to alleviate your fears of being struck?

[ZombieHorde]

42. I will take an Xbox 360 and the "Left 4 Dead" game please! nt

[Hepburn]

70. ...

...:rofl:

[virginia mountainman]

27. No, I won't be...

Most of the times I say "Nice shot!"

If I am holding my gun, in a serious situation..

I will be saying "STOP!!!!!!" or "LEAVE!!!!!!"

You watch too many movies...

[X_Digger]

28. Project much?

When I hold a tool capable of inflicting great harm, I take that responsibility seriously. Of course, I'm talking about my car keys. And firearms. And my pneumatic nailer. And the bottle of muriatic acid I use to etch concrete. And the MEK I keep in the garage to clean car parts.

That might be what _you_ say when you hold a gun, but I very seriously doubt you have any indication what the other 80M gun owners think when _they_ hold a firearm.

[Taitertots]

59. That might be what YOU say

The rest of us are not out of our minds like you must be.

[AtheistCrusader]

90. The strawman that can be seen from orbit by the naked eye.

You have no clue why people carry. None at all.

You're not even in the ballpark. Hell, you're not even playing the same game.

[PavePusher]

55. Screw Projection.

S/he is making accusations without basis in fact.

In other words - Trying very hard to be the biggest A--hole on the board.

[sharesunited]

60. Not sure why you think I am an A-hole for consistently pointing out that guns and ammo are a menace.

Geez, and people (wrongly) accuse me of ad hominem!

[slackmaster]

86. I don't think you are an A-hole, sharesunited. I think you are prejudiced.

And ignorant.

[friendly_iconoclast]

88. Because of what *might* be done with them, or what *is* done with them?

An important distinction. Certainly, one could study crime statistics and see what deleterious effect, if any, legal concealed carriage of weapons has upon crime rates.

IOW, malum prohibitum versus malum in se.

But that would also mean muddying the ideal with the real. Would you do that?

[rd_kent]

95. No, people who want to strip others of rights are menace.

[ZombieHorde]

19. No, he is just a guy who likes firearms. His biggest love is music, he plays saxophone and piano.

He owns a few firearms and happens to feel very strongly about the Second Amendment. I have never seen him hold a firearm, but I have seen them on his wall. He loves cats and beer. He is funny and kind, he is a good guy.

[sharesunited]

22. That 2A puzzle piece doesn't fit. Observe him cautiously. It is a warning sign.

[armueller2001]

30. Reading your posts is hilarious...

Your notion that anyone who owns guns is just itching to kill someone is retarded. Painting a large percentage of the population with a broad brush, aren't we? I recall a figure around 40% of Americans are gun owners. They must all be CRAZIES!

There are some of us who choose to have effective options available to protect ourselves and our families from violent attack. I fully support your choice not to be responsible and take the same preparations. Hope it works out for you.

[sharesunited]

35. Your effective options are worth any price to the nation?

No, your need is not justifiable and the price is too great.

[armueller2001]

38. Right.....

because my guns sitting in a safe are taking such a toll on the nation.

Thanks for pulling out the obligatory "need" canard so early in the discussion.

I don't "need" guns, I choose to have them. I don't "need" a car that has the ability to go over 65 miles per hour either, but I choose to own one.

[sharesunited]

45. You'll be happy to hear I feel no particular threat from your car.

[slackmaster]

49. So you are less fearful of the thing that is more likely to be a factor in your injury or death

That's irrational.

[armueller2001]

50. "Raging against self-defense: A psychiatrist examines the anti-gun mentality"

I highly recommend this article, it will help you understand the projection and other defense mechanisms that are used by those who have irrational fears of inanimate objects.

http://www.defendu.com/psycharticle.htm

[X_Digger]

51. And there's your problem..

because realistically, you are at more risk from your neighbor's car than his gun.

http://www.nsc.org/news_resources/injury_and_death_statistics/Documents/Odds%20of%20Dying.pdf

Odds of dying by assault with a firearm? 1 in 23,326 in a year, 1 in 300 over the course of a lifetime.
Odds of dying by motor vehicle accident? 1 in 6,584 in a year, 1 in 85 over the course of a lifetime.

eta: I just realized, these are based on 2006 numbers, population has went up since then, yet firearm deaths are down and motor vehicle deaths are up.. so the odds are even more disparate.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

66. But you still have a irrational fear of his guns that are in a safe.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

65. Fortunately you don't get to make that decision.

[AtheistCrusader]

91. Good thing you're a tiny fraction of the smallest minority then.

Democracy rules, good day to you sir.

[Taitertots]

52. When did the NRA say guns MADE people free

If taking away guns made people safe, then nations with strict gun control would be the safest on earth, Mexico, East Timor, Brazil, and South Africa. And Switzerland would be Thunderdome!

[PavePusher]

54. Guns, and a bit of organisation...

i.e. large scale common goals.

Every man (village/tribe/gang) for itself isn't a particularly effective recipe for peace and freedom. And no-one here or at the NRA claims otherwise.

[sharesunited]

61. Guns and a bit of orgasm you mean.

[slackmaster]

68. I find it both funny and sad that you sit at your computer making proclamation after proclamation

About what you think is going on inside of other peoples' heads, while you show few indications of insight into what is going on inside of your own.

[friendly_iconoclast]

74. Save your breath. He honestly believes inanimate objects have mind-control powers

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=247574&mesg_id=247581

He could have fit right in on the "NASA bombs the moon" threads...

[Euromutt]

110. It figures he believes he has mind-reading powers as well, then

Magical thinking for the win.

You gotta love how the only support he ever provides for his assertions is that they are "self-evident," too. Such a convenient cop-out for not having any evidence, isn't it?

[rl6214]

81. You need to see a sex therapist

You have some serious problems.

[AtheistCrusader]

92. I'd like to see whatever firearm it is that you've fired that has this effect on you.

Hell, I might buy one.

[divideandconquer]

67. Cloaking gunnutism in human rights terms infers freedom

I'd rather be free from a "for every nut, a gun" society. I know many gun nutters and they all live in some personal hell and they well deserve it but the rest of society doesn't.

[friendly_iconoclast]

73. I haven't seen the "BEIKVFMcG!" argument in a few weeks

"But everyone I know voted for McGovern!"

You need to realize that the people you know personally might not be an accurate representation of ca. 80 million
Americans.

That, or hang around with different people.

[Chulanowa]

76. The proper term is Nugentian

And the old assertion is that the right to bear arms is what protects all the other rights.

Which is pretty silly since I haven't met a Nugentian yet who wouldn't happily give away every single fucking right he has if it means he can have a shiny new gun.

:shrug: Some children want spongebob toys. Other children apparently want guns.

[friendly_iconoclast]

87. Do you also have a "BEIKVFMcG" problem, or are you ignoring the

usual type of gun owners that you might happen to know?

Judging an entire group of people by the acts of a monority is a bit bigoted, ya know...

[Chulanowa]

93. Do I have a what? And what's a monority?

And yeah, I admit that I'm bigoted towards idiots. especially idiots who believe they have a right to be armed while stupid.

[X_Digger]

96. "BEIKVFMcG"

"But everyone I know voted for McGovern!"

Relates to the incredulity of George McGovern's supporters in the 1972 election, who were so wound up in patting each other on the back that they failed to realize that their 'circle of friends' didn't represent a majority of voters.

Your statement - "since I haven't met a Nugentian yet who wouldn't happily give away every single fucking right he has if it means he can have a shiny new gun" - falls into that category.

aka, you need to meet more gun owners (shit, read more posts here in the gungeon for a start) before you start slinging intimations about all gun owners.

If you want to talk majority / minority, how about the majority of americans polled who like gun laws the way they are, or want them relaxed?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/123596/In-U.S.-Record-Low-Support-Stricter-Gun-Laws.aspx

[Chulanowa]

97. Oh, don't think I don't make a distinction.

There are gun owners - people who happen to own a gun. I've owned them myself. I blew more than a few deer away with 'em, too.

And then there are the nugentians. These are the people with "gun issues" and are the ones the DU gun forum is geared toward and, predictably, who make up many of the posters here. These are the people who treat Guns & Ammo like a 12 year old boy treats a playboy. You can always tell them because they'll be the first in line to tell you that a gun has a purpose other than killing things. For the nugentian, the gun is not a tool, it's the centerpiece of a whole cornucopia of fantasies and superstitions, much as how samurai treated their swords back in the day.

And nice graph. I think it's cute how you guys have it in your head that someone who thinks you're a bunch of slavering idiots must also be in favor of sharper restrictions on gun laws. You can only think in black and white, for me and against me terms, and hten act so surprised when others compare you to freeptards.

Get a brain, moran.

[eqfan592]

98. Interesting.

So, did you make all that crap up on your own? Or was it spoon fed to you? "Those people are passionate about this particular civil liberty, ergo it's the only thing that defines their existence."

Speaking about getting a brain......:eyes:

[Chulanowa]

102. No, I read the guns forum, just like was suggested to me

You guys really are pretty dumb and tunnel-visioned. And you still got this whole "fer me or agin' me" outlook where, just because I think you're all a bunch of ignorant dips, that I must also want to take away all your guns.

Not at all. I figure dumb people with guns is a self-correcting problem.

[eqfan592]

105. That's OK Chulanowa.

We think you're an ignorant dip as well, so it all evens out in the end. Only difference is that we actually back up our stances with facts. You just use ad hominem attacks. But hey, it's cool if that works for you. Not like you are actually trying to make a valid point of any sort, anyway :)

I wonder what a day in your life is like. "Look here! I just called these people all these bad things because they believe strongly in something. I am a BIG man!"

Sorry buddy, but really all you're proving is how pathetic you are. Now move along please so the adults can actually figure things out. There's a childrens area around here somewhere for you I'm sure, and maybe they'll be more impressed by all your posturing.

[friendly_iconoclast]

99. And I'm sure some of your best friends are gun owners. You're still a bigot.

And we thought teabaggers were bitter when electoral politics didn't go their way...

Seems that people enthusiastic about guns make you angry. You have a whole group of people subject to
your open disdain, and you refuse to discuss statistics when they are presented to you.

Do you get this exercised against car geeks, given that cars kill more people than guns do in this country?

A word of advice:

Do get a liver function test, and soon. All that bile can't be healthy.

[friendly_iconoclast]

100. And here's some empirical evidence to raise your blood pressure even higher:

Kudos to Euromutt for pointing this out:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x267003#267231

From his post #41:

...We do actually have some evidence, though, namely what happened after the 1994 ban on scary-looking semi-automatic firearms and full-capacity magazines lapsed. Five years later, rates of violent crime and homicide have not returned to pre-1994 levels. In fact, they haven't risen at all...

That explains the Oscar the Grouch schtick- you're in the dustbin of history!

Freedom- gotta love it!

[Chulanowa]

101. Yes, next i'm going to burn a cross in your yard and throw bricks at your kids

It's just like being black, isn't it, you poor bastard? :rofl:

Hell, next you'll be ripping your shirt and proclaiming gun owners "the new Jews" won't you?

You can't really just go throwing around "bigot" here, chief. I think people who enjoy autoerotic asphyxiation are stupid. I hold the same opinion about people who keep pet alligators. And fursuiters, oh boy, don't get me started on those yiffy dumbasses. I think pro-lifers are very, very stupid. Guess I'm one hell of a bigot, huh?

If you guys don't want me to think you're stupid, then you need to stop saying and doing stupid shit. Like this weird mythology that merely owning a gun keeps you safe. At the very least you could be honest and say it's using the gun that has a fair chance at making you safer. But... it's the weirdest thing... you guys seem to truly, honestly, NOT want to mention the fact that the gun is a tool who's primary use is to kill and hurt another living thing. It's like a "dirty secret" or something. So instead of just being honest about it, you seem to think having a gun in the house puts a magical aura of safety over that house.

Guns are for killing things. That gun nuts seem to love denying this fact speaks pretty loudly. It's sort of like my annoyance at potheads who hide behind the "miracle weed" crap.

[friendly_iconoclast]

107. Not real big on research, are you? Like the man says, "Let's go to the tape!"

You obviously haven't read, have forgotten, or are flat-out eliding what me (and others) have said:

If you guys don't want me to think you're stupid, then you need to stop saying and doing stupid shit. Like this weird mythology that merely owning a gun keeps you safe.

Err, no one has actually said a stupid thing, it's only been attributed to others by people like...you.

Take it away, Euromutt!:

Euromutt (1000+ posts) Tue Nov-10-09 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #18
45. Is that honestly what you think?
If so, you are so very mistaken.

Guns don't address the cause of crime; they merely enable a person to more effectively defend him- or herself from a violent assailant. Thus, they may help in preventing a crime from being completed, but they cannot be counted on to prevent it from being initiated.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x267003

Seems honest enough. Wouldn't you agree?

But wait, there's more fisking to come, sports fans!:

... But... it's the weirdest thing... you guys seem to truly, honestly, NOT want to mention the fact that the gun is a tool who's primary use is to kill and hurt another living thing. It's like a "dirty secret" or something. So instead of just being honest about it, you seem to think having a gun in the house puts a magical aura of safety over that house.

Guns are for killing things. That gun nuts seem to love denying this fact speaks pretty loudly....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=266539#266672

... friendly_iconoclast (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-07-09 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I don't mind the factual accounts of people getting shot. They should be posted...
...if accurate, even if it reflects badly on gun owners. People need to be reminded that things they own might cause harm, be they guns, cars, knives, or a bottle of acetaminophen or pesticide left where kids can get them. Freedom comes at a price, and it's proper to acknowledge that.

What I do object to is willful ignorance, deliberate misrepresentation of fact, and demonization of others

Like I said: You're a bigot. And a lazy one at that.

[friendly_iconoclast]

109. Ha! Looks like *someone* developed a sudden aversion to this thread..

Amazing what posting the results from five minutes of research can do to some people...

[X_Digger]

103. I get it.. hunters & 'nugentians', eh?

I have news for you, only 1 in 5 gun owners hunt. 4 out of 5 don't really care about you taking down a deer. They own guns for other reasons.

I know a LOT of gun owners, and very few aren't politically involved in gun issues, or use a candidate's stance on gun issues as one of a number of factors when deciding who to vote for. Like any factor it is a spectrum of views, with some putting more importance on one than others.

And you accuse _me_ of overly concrete thinking? *snort* That's rich.

[Chulanowa]

104. No, gun owners and nugentians

You're obviously not illiterate, so what's the deal here?

[X_Digger]

106. Then why mention taking down a deer, eh?

Is that 'gun cred' in the circles you frequent? If not, then why mention it?

[burrfoot]

84. Really?

Have you ever heard any one here- ever - state, or even imply, that guns have some crazy voodoo powers? That by owning one, all men become shining beacons of freedom, nobility, and righteousness? Could you please show me where this has been said?

Because all I've ever heard is people saying that they feel like they should be allowed to use the same level of weapon that criminals use. And I've heard, over and over again, people acknowledge that a gun is not a guarantee of anything, but rather, simply, a last option in a desperate situation. Something that increases your odds of survival (or of protecting someone else), not something that makes you invincible.

But hey, it's cool. Keep spreading the idea that someone- anyone- here has implied that guns make people free. Not someone saying that the right to own and use a gun is a characteristic of a free society, mind you, but what you said- that a gun (an inert object) makes you free.

hint: nobody here thinks that guns are magic. They are tools. They could contribute to making Somalia, Afghanistan, Columbia, ad nauseum, free, if they were put to the appropriate use.

How do you suppose our country became free?

[paulsby]

63. hawaii, fwiw

while it is TECHNICALLY may issue is for all intents and purposes - a NO issue state

when i was in police academy there, we were discussing CCW's and the instructor admitted that in his entire long career, he had never run into ANYBODY in HI in possession of a CCW. he did some research and found the total # issued for the county was LESS than 10 lol and most of them were to civilian investigators in the prosecutors office, a high ranking politician, etc. the average joe has as close to ZERO a chance of getting a permit there, as you can get.

note: i left HI over 10 yrs ago. so, things MAY have changed, but this was the status quo about 10 yrs ago

[Hoopla Phil]

64. K and R

[Euromutt]

72. Do bear in mind that map doesn't represent population

The number of yellow and red stats on that map may look like a mere handful, but they are some of the most populous states in the Union, notably California and New York. There's a lot of voters packed into those yellow and red areas, and we'd be unwise to dismiss them too readily.

[eqfan592]

77. We actually did pass a shall issue law in WI a few years back.

But the gov. vetoed it, sadly. He's on the way out now by his own choice, so we're hoping the next one will be more open to the idea.

EDIT: "we're" as in those of us that want a shall issue law passed. I'm sure there's still a fair number of people that oppose the idea :P

[slackmaster]

85. The funny thing about California is that some of the rural counties are practically shall-issue

May-issue gives complete control to the county sheriff. If the sheriff is pro-RKBA, pretty much anyone who doesn't have a criminal record can pay the fees, take the class, and get the permit. Of course if you happen to be Asian and that sheriff doesn't like Asians, he can deny you a permit and you have no legal recourse.

The only truly fair system for issuing concealed weapons permits is an objective one. No-issue infringes on everyone's rights. May-issue gives one person absolute power to decide whose rights get infringed.

[spin]

79. K&R (n/t)