Should soldiers be allowed to pack heat on base? ...

[spin]

Stop the Silliness and Arm our Soldiers and Marines

In my last article I described what it’s like on Fort Hood, as well as all U.S. Army installations. It’s like Chicago. The only people armed are the post law enforcement agency such as Military Police or the Federal Police and those intent on criminal activity. Soldiers are not armed with loaded firearms ever, except during periodic weapons qualification. Private ownership of firearms is generally ok providing the firearm is locked up in a designated armory on post/base. The soldier does not have immediate access to their private firearms. Having a firearm in the sleeping quarters or military housing is against regulations and is subject to a court martial.

The bottom line solution is simple, arm officers and non-commissioned officers with side arms. When on duty, no matter the location, whether on post/base or off, commissioned and non-commissioned officers should be required carry a loaded pistol, either openly or concealed. When off-duty they should be allowed to secure their weapons within their quarters. It becomes a part of their uniform.

Soldiers who are not commissioned or non-commissioned officers, while on-duty and while on post/base property should be issued their M16 rifles with a full magazine compliment. The weapon and ammo should be turned in to the main armory when coming off-duty unless provisions to secure the weapons within each bay or room are provided.

***snip***

It is time to end this political correct nonsense of maintaining an unarmed military force.
http://www.gunnewsdaily.com/index.php/contributor-commentaries/188-stop-the-silliness-arm-our-soldiers-and-marines

[Frances]

1. Are you serious?

I don't think any military people would agree with you.

[Euromutt]

3. spin's quoting

He hasn't expressed an opinion in favor of or against the ideas posited in the piece, he's just tossed it out for discussion. Direct your incredulity toward the article itself, not the person who posted it.

[spin]

5. I was in the Air Force in the 60's...

I spent my entire time stateside in Biloxi Mississippi and Cape Cod Mass.

The only people I can remember that were armed on base were the Air Police. I can't remember if they carried handguns or not but I know they had access to M16 rifles. When we had highly classified equipment on board our aircraft, the air police would stand guard. It's quite possible that the M16's were unloaded.

I remember one time when our squadron commander and a couple of us drove onto the flight line in a staff car and roared up to one of our aircraft. The guard drew down on us with his M16. That will cause your heart to beat a little faster than normal.

Often I post articles without entering a comment for discussion. While military bases are basically gun free zones, I don't believe arming commissioned and non-commissioned officers with handguns makes any sense. I would have found carrying a .38 revolver a pain in the ass while working on the electronics in an aircraft.

When I was in the service, we tended to drink a lot. Guns and alcohol are a bad mix.

[MUAD_DIB]

24. My father was an AP during the Korean war.

True story.

While my dad was stationed in Alaska he and others were allowed to carry personal firearms. He had Walther p38.

He never really liked owning a weapon (he really didn't like being an AP either) so he sold it to a friend of his on base.

A week later that friend then used it to blow a hole in his own hand to get out of the Air Force.

The slug went through his hand, blowing out two knuckles, through a wall, out through a locker and into an unoccupied pillow on a bunk.


The CO went ballistic and from then on all personal firearms were confiscated and locked up while Airmen were on base.
They had to sign them out if they wanted them.

My father never wanted to own another gun after that.

a

[PavePusher]

9. I think it's a great idea.

If you can trust me not to drop an aircraft, you can trust me with a gun.

USAF. 19 years.

[Euromutt]

2. Sounds like a major pain in the ass

From my memories of the my service period (in the Royal Netherlands Army, not the US Army), if I'd had to spend my entire working day lugging around my issued individual weapon (an Uzi SMG) and a full load of ammo, I'd have been seriously annoyed.

[spin]

6. Agreed. (n/t)

[Tim01]

11. I think the suggestion was a handgun.

Many of us carry one of those every day already.

[Euromutt]

12. It says an M 16 with full complement of magazines for EMs (n/t)

[Tim01]

13. Ok, I see the difference was on duty, VS off duty.

I would think a handgun would be pretty reasonable though. Rifles are a bit excessive.

[rrneck]

4. Can't say I'm for it.

If there were even an organization that should be able to provide highly trained armed security for large groups of people it should be the military.

Armed guards with M4's at a shopping mall would be bad for business. At a military base it's business as usual.

Seems to me that most of what caused the tradgedy at Ft. Hood was an over stressed and undermanned military. Too many soldiers across the great water fighting illegal wars and not enough at home to guard the base. Add to that multiple deployments and all the rest that push soldiers to the edge and every now and then they go off.

[one-eyed fat man]

14. by all accounts

The shooter was a REMF. He had not ever served OCONUS.

In garrison, for the most part, the functions of interior guard have been taken over by civilian contractors or the FPS. Basic trainees still learn about guard mounts, memorize their 3 General Orders and that's just about it. Starting in the first week of basic, trainees are required to carry their M16's throughout the training day, but they are unloaded, and on Fort Knox, for example, bright orange blank adapters are prominently mounted. This to accustom them to handling weapons safely, habituating them to carry in the "low ready".

During live fire exercises, ammunition is signed for and controlled, weapons are rodded to ensure they are clear coming on and off the firing line. A few may recall, "No brass; no ammo, Drill Sergeant."

During field training exercises, soldiers whose primary duty does not include closing with the enemy by fire and maneuver are the ones who most resent carrying their individual weapons. Any First Sergeant will readily confirm it is his cooks, clerks, mechanics, commo guys, and medics who lose track of their weapons or fail to have them with them. They leave them in the truck, on the track, etc. The staff weenie captains are the ones who most whine about having to carry them.

This may come as a shock to those whose only exposure to military service has been avoidance, but if you are a really old soldier (your key ring is a recycled grenade pin and there is a P-38 on it) you can smile and recite, "I will walk my post from flank to flank and take no shit from any rank."

[rrneck]

16. Solid info. Thanks. I can't call

myself an authority on the subject since I never served in the military. The two words that stand out most in your post for me are "civilian contractors".

I think soldiers ought to do the work of soldiering. If the general population can't come up with enough people to fill the ranks that's a sure sign the cause is not just. Hiring it done makes it a rich man's war and a poor man's fight. Military service is a civic duty, not the source of a revenue stream.

If the shooter had known that that facility was guarded by combat veterans he would have thought twice before trying it.

[one-eyed fat man]

20. you misunderstand

The current end strength of the Army, SET BY CONGRESS, is 527,000 troops of all ranks WORLDWIDE. This is less, by almost 80,000 soldiers that the number of troops in Viet Nam alone in 1969. As a result, some of the routine housekeeping overhead that used to be done by soldiers, like KP's, gate guards, stacking basketballs in the gym, etc is now done by civilians. This includes what now passes for the routine security of posts not in a combat area. This also frees up soldiers for DEPLOYMENT which is what the civilians wish to avoid.

Local civilians like it as these are almost always union jobs and among the better paid and most secure in an area. Congressmen like it as it is the local civilians around a military post that vote for them. The GI usually votes where he considers home, not always where he happens to be stationed.

The shooter, as an active Army officer, would most certainly know that he would be in an area where no weapons would be present, save his.

After the end of Viet Nam but before the increased security measures after 9-11, most active Army installations were open posts and most gates were not even manned. If there was an MP on the gate, he was there mostly to give visitors directions.

[spin]

19. I would have hated carrying an M16...

while I was crawling around in the baggage compartment of a EC-121H radar picket plane. The space was cramped and often soaked with hydraulic fluid (the smell of which I hate to this day). It was filled with electronic gear, much of which which I worked on.

I was a aircraft radio technician not some grunt or cop. When I went through basic training we ran everywhere. We spent one day on the range with an M16. We fired at large silhouette targets place at 100 yards. I got the message. If the shit hits the fan, RUN. Let the trained combat troops handle the situation. If it goes down hill from there, grab an M16 and try to hit something. With luck, the noise will scare the attackers.


EC-121H (radar picket aircraft)

[one-eyed fat man]

21. Facts of life...........

REMFs all seem to act like the infantry and armor battalions exist to protect them from the attacking hordes. Here are some of the reasons why this thinking is false.

First, the further away you get from the front lines, the bigger the gun they shoot at you. On the combat outpost you worry about guns, knives, grenades, mortars, stuff humans have been killing each other with for years if not centuries. The SCUDS fall on air bases. Persistent nerve gas won't be used to contaminate real estate they want. They are nuking Chicago. How far back do you wanna be?

The Airborne employ their spectacular means of arrival on the battlefield precisely to avoid the professionals. The reason they are such successful and fearsome killers is they are after the clerks and jerks, ash and trash, the ones who need the instructions "This Side Toward Enemy" on a Claymore to keep from blowing themselves up. (See Arnheim to understand what happens when they jump into the middle of a Panzer division.)

A soldier's first duty is to stay alive long enough to do his job and that is why he is issued an individual weapon in a combat zone. He gets to guard his own body. In a theater where asymmetrical warfare is the norm, the threat from unconventional forces to support troops is even greater. Since the insurgent often has the initiative, that is he gets to pick who and where he fights, they prefer to engage units which appear to be easy targets.

[PavePusher]

22. Great photo.

Pima County A & S Musuem?

[virginia mountainman]

7. If a senior NCO, or a senior officer wants to carry his sidearm.

It should be allowed. But not reqired.

But the Ft Hood Shooter was a Major..... And that is a Senior officer, by any measure.

[spin]

8. It could be pointed out that he did carry despite the rules....

the idea of a senior NCO or senior officer carrying a handgun makes far more sense than the idea purposed in the article.

edited for typo

[PavePusher]

10. If one of my junior Airmen can be trusted to not drop an aircraft...

s/he can be trusted with a firearm.

[SteveM]

15. POA: I think Sgt. Munley is a civilian (Killeen?) police officer (nt)

[spin]

17. St. Munley is a a civilian cop employed by the Army...

Sergeant Kimberly Munley, 34, a civilian Department of Defense police officer at the base, is credited with stopping the firing rampage of U.S. Army Major Nidal Hasan at the Soldier Readiness Center within a few minutes after he launched his attack.


****snip****

Munley, who worked as a police officer for five years in North Carolina where her father, Dennis Barbour, once served as mayor of Carolina Beach, is a talented shooter and member of the base's Special Reaction Team which trains for the possibility of events like Thursday's shooting rampage. She is a passionate fan of Twitter, and once news of her actions spread, her followers began to blossom in number — among them country singer Dierks Bentley, who posed for a photo with the petite police officer at the fort's annual July Fourth FreedomFest. The photo is posted on her Twitter page along with a brief biographical quote: "I live a good life ... a hard one, but I go to sleep peacefully at night knowing that I may have made a difference in someone's life."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1936444,00.html#ixzz0WO35xLPh

from: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/11/06/2009-11-06_police_sgt_kimberly_munley_credited_with_ending_fort_hood_gunman_maj_nidal_malik.html

[Katya Mullethov]

18. Why on Earth would an armored division --

need sidearms when they have the Kileen PD to protect them ?


Past lessons aside , I am sure that George Patton SIR would be forced to slap quite a few ninnies over this .

[PavePusher]

23. Correction...

The General would be shooting people over this...

[Euromutt]

26. Maybe, but...

Given Patton's record, he'd be gunning for the people who weren't wearing neckties first.

Patton had his moments, but he was undeniably a martinet. By which I mean a practitioner of chickenshit.

[PavePusher]

28. Certainly can't dispute that. n/t

[slackmaster]

25. I'd be OK with allowing NCOs and officers to carry openly

Not enlisted people below E-4 or maybe E-5.

[PavePusher]

29. Why not?

Many of those "youngsters" have Top Secret clearances and/or are in charge of security for sensative facilities (including Nukes) or are responsible for keeping planes and bombs from falling in the wrong places.

If I have an E-2 Airman who can be trusted to correctly repair, install, test and tune an aircraft engine that will be capable of keeping dozens of people airborne/thousands of pounds of bombs from crashing, then they can be trusted with a firearm. Hell, if that same E-2 can be trusted with a loaded weapon to guard the base entry gate, why not him/herself at the BX?

I suggest that your definition of trust, and the people you are willing to give it to, is too narrow and not well thought out.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

27. I've got no problem with it.