Sgt. Kimberly Munley's weapon was a 9mm Beretta.

[SteveM]

According to a couple of news sources, Sg. Kimberly Munley's weapon was a 9mm Beretta semi-automatic pistol. The shooter's weapon was an FN 5.7mm semi-auto which has been variously described as "a favourite of Mexican drug gangs" (source provided), a "cop killer" (on Maddow's show), and "an assault rifle in a pocket" (that last one by the Brady Center who wasted no time for an AP writer).

In the end, Sgt. Munley was hit 3 times by the "assault rifle in a pocket," while she delivered a boring, garden-variety 9mm round which dropped the shooter like a sack of potatoes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6521578/Fort-Hood-shooting-inside-story-of-how-massacre-on-military-base-happened.html

[Cirque du So-What]

1. Laws of physics prevail

The marketing hype that describes 'devastating hydrostatic shock' is not true. A 5.7 mm bullet just doesn't have the mass of a 9 mm bullet, and high impact velocity doesn't compensate for the lower mass.

[Buzz cook]

16. high impact velocity doesn't compensate for the lower mass.

Umm the formula is half mass times velocity squared. That basically means that velocity makes a bigger difference in kinetic energy than mass. 1/2MV^2=E

I think it's more likely that the Munley had better shot placement than Hasan.

BTW 20 years ago Kimberly Munley wouldn't have been allowed to serve. Today just like any other woman, she's being thrown under the bus by the democratic party.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

17. The 9mm has more energy AND momentum than the 5.6mm

Not to mention it pokes bigger holes.

[Buzz cook]

18. That's not what the math says

9mm Nato = 115gr at ~1200fps
= 57.5 x 1440000 = 82800000

5.7x28 = 36gr at 2100fps
= 18 x 4410000 = 79380000

82800000/79380000 = 1.0430839 Not a very big difference.

I say shot placement trumps caliber.

[eqfan592]

20. Aren't there a few other factors missing here?

I'm not trying to dog you or anything, but I just seem to remember more factors involved beyond just the energy when reviewing the effectiveness of a particular cartridge. I wonder what would show up in a ballistics gel comparison between these two.

[Buzz cook]

21. 5.7 leaves a wider wound channel (tumbles and splits)

9mm goes deeper.

I'm just trying to point out that the 5.7x28 isn't just a tweaked .22mag.

[eqfan592]

22. Gotcha, thanks.

Do you happen to have a link to the testing with pictures? Or is it just the numbers out here?

[benEzra]

30. NON-expanding 9mm loads (e.g., ball or target ammo) goes deeper. Not true of expanding loads.

Defensive ammo for a 9mm will expand to several times the cross-sectional area of a 5.7mm round going sideways and will penetrate roughly the same. A 9mm starts with three times the frontal area of a 5.7mm and can double or triple that depending on expansion.

5.7x28 isn't a tweaked .22 mag, because it's a centerfire. Ballistically, though, 5.7x28 out of a pistol length barrel IS very, very close to .22 mag out of a rifle length barrel. I see a lot of posts upthread quoting stats on the 5.7 out of carbine barrels, but those are irrelevant to its ballistics out of the FiveSeven.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

23. I'm not sure what math you're trying to show... but...

147gr 9mm +P Double Tap shot from Glock 17: 147gr @ 1150fps (0.00952kg @ 350m/s)
5.7x28mm SS197 fired from an FN Five-seveN: 40gr @ ~1900fps (0.00259kg @ 579m/s)

9mm energy, momentum, area ........... 1166 joules, 3.33 kg*m/s, 63.6 mm^2
5.7 energy, momentum, area ........... 868 joules, 1.50 kg*m/s, 25.5 mm^2

The 9mm defense round has 34% more energy than the 5.7mm defense round
The 9mm defense round has 122% more momentum than the 5.7mm defense round
The 9mm defense round has 149% more cross section than the 5.7mm defense round

Those percentages are significant.
Shot placement is no doubt important... but the 9mm is a better round, hands down.

[benEzra]

33. That quoted velocity for SS197 is high; I think that's for a P90 (10.35" barrel).

I'm seeing 1650-1750 fps for SS197SR out of a FiveSeven's 4.8" barrel.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/ST_5point7by28mm_200811/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7x28mm

[benEzra]

31. Those are the figures for a carbine-length 5.7mm (e.g., a P90/PS90), not a FiveSeven.

Out of a FiveSeven, you're only looking at the mid-1700's for a mid-30's grain bullet, and barely 300 ft-lb, whereas a 9mm out of the same length barrel will be in excess of 400 ft-lb even for standard-pressure loads.

For comparison, a 9mm +P will throw a 115-grain bullet at 1350 fps out of a 5" barrel, for something like 466 ft-lb (numbers off the top of my head).

[slackmaster]

2. Bullets with a high ballistic coefficient typically overpenetrate soft tissue

Without doing as much damage as a fatter, slower bullet of the same weight.

[benEzra]

4. And the 5.7mm uses VERY lightweight bullets, 28 to 40 grains.

The 40-grain 5.7mm's are only going about 1650 fps out of a FiveSeven, which is about the same velocity that a .357 throws 110-grainers, as I recall. It's a pretty anemic cartridge, particularly out of a pistol.

[krispos42]

26. Winchester lists a 110-grain at 1,295 ft/s

But a 125-grain at 1,450. That's pushing 600 ft-pounds of energy.


According the Wikipedia the current "sporting" round for the 5.7 is a Hornady V-Max 40-grain bullet at 1,750 ft/s, for 272 ft-lbs of energy. That puts it in between the .38 +P and the 9mm in terms of power, although I don't know how it works in term of penetration. Supposedly the Houston PD tested the military-issue armor-piercing round on bare geletin from a P90 (carbine; higher muzzle velocity than a pistol) and got between 11 and 13.5 inches of penetration. And that's with a non-expanding bullet, although presumebly it tumbled and yawed in the geletin.

I could see the Army issuing it with the AP rounds for conventional warfare against guys with flak jackets or body armor, but in the kind of stuff we're fighting now (unarmored insurgents) we're probably better off with the 9mm. Actually we'd probably be better off with Glocks chambered in .45 GAP.

[taurus145]

27. Bite your toungue!

Glock? 1911 all the way!

(Here comes the argument. I may have only joined recently, but I've been reading this forum for at least 6 years. I know what may be coming.)

[krispos42]

35. Well as far as I know only Glock makes a double-stack .45 GAP handgun

IIRC, Springfield Armory makes a single-stack 1911 .45 GAP, a double-stack XD in .45 ACP, and a single-stack XD in .45 GAP.


Now if Springfield Armory makes an XD in .45 GAP, I think that would be an excellent choice for an anti-insurgent gun. Should be small enough around the grip for small hands to grip it, even with gloves on. And 13 rounds in the magazine is a potent combination.


For guys wearing armor, though, you'd want the smaller 9mm. More penetration. Actually we'd probably do pretty well with the old 7.62mm Tokarev for that.

[taurus145]

36. GAP = Gawd Awful Pistol

So sue me. I'm a 1911 fan, but I carry a Taurus 145 Millennium in .45 ACP for CCDW.

When I open carry, it's 1911 all the way.

O.K. So I'm a dinosaur.

[benEzra]

29. That's either a typo or very lightly loaded, since 9mm +P+ will throw a 115gr at 1350fps. (n/t)

[krispos42]

34. I think it's a cheapie "white box" round

Doubtless it could be loaded hotter with relative ease.

It might be a "reduce recoil" load.

[SteveM]

3. Additional source and correction...

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/2009/11/07/1107gun.html

The source for "assault rifle that can fit in a pocket" was from the above article which quoted an un-named law enforcement official in "earlier testimony."

You may wish to examine the Brady Center's description of penetration ability on armor at 200 yards.

[Euromutt]

7. There's some bullshit statements made in that article

One military expert said it was a weapon that no doctor — not even a military one — would normally carry.

Thank you, Mr. Self-Styled "Military Expert," for that utter fail. The P90 sub-machine gun and the Five-seveN pistol were designed by FN to be issued to military personnel in non-combat functions to be able to defensively engage enemy personnel wearing body armor in the event of an emergency. The P90 would be issued to people like truck drivers, radio operators, and various REMFs, while the Five-seveN would be issued to senior officers, medics, and yes, military doctors.

When first introduced for civilian sales, according to the Brady Campaign, the FN Web site touted that "enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar helmets and vests ... will be penetrated."

Which page of the website? For that matter, which website, FNH-USA's (http://www.fnhusa.com/) or the parent company's site (http://www.fnherstal.com/)? Because I don't buy that FN would claim you could hit a man-sized target at 200 meters with a pistol.

Okay, I see FN's page on the Five-seveN (http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=269&backPID=263&productID=66&pid_product=295&pidList=263&categorySelector=5&detail=) does contain the following:

The flat trajectory of the 5.7 x 28 mm ammunition guarantes a high hit probability up to 200 m.

But then it adds:

Extremely low recoil results in quick and accurate firing, either shot by shot or automatically.

The Five-seveN doesn't have automatic fire capability. Somebody just copied and pasted those lines from a page on the P90!

But the fact remains that whatever claims FN makes or has made about the armor-piercing capability of the 5.7x28mm round apply only to the SS190 "ball" round, which FN only sells to governments. This round is not available to private citizens in the US, or anywhere else. It says so explicitly on FNH-USA's page on ammunition: http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/ammo.asp

[Endangered Specie]

9. What kind of pockets do people have these days??

[benEzra]

5. 9mm is considerably bigger than 5.7mm...

and speaking of which, it's a wonder that the media haven't discovered the "evil multi-shot 18.5mm riot gun" issue yet...

[SteveM]

6. Yeah, I saw a picture of some cop named Munley using one (nt)

[Endangered Specie]

8. Had the asshole used the Beratta, I'm sure the anti talking heads would be railing about

its high capacity magazine, the fact that its a military weapon so it must be made to KILL KILL KILL, and that it was used by Bruce Willis (strike three).

Funny how guns can be used for good OR evil purposes, just depends entirely on the moral character of the person holding it.

[SteveM]

10. NPR this morning is still talking about the 5.7 mm as a...

"powerful" gun which can penetrate armor with the right ammunition.

My clod-hopper .357 will do that, though I would prefer it wouldn't.

[benEzra]

11. So will a .38. So will a 9mm. So will any centerfire pistol.

That doesn't change the fact that AP handgun ammunition is already restricted by the 1986 AP bullet ban and that the 5.7 with civilian ammo won't penetrate anything rated to stop .357.

Oh, don't you love the Brady Campaign's "assault rifle in a pocket" meme. Gee, a .22 with only two thirds the energy of a 9mm...

I suppose that makes a .357 a "sniper rifle in your pocket", and a 10mm an "anti-tank rifle in your pocket." :eyes:

[Endangered Specie]

13. Better yet how about 7.62x25 tokarev!

[slackmaster]

12. Absolutely. Any gun used in a high-profile crime becomes the new Bogeyman Special.

Regardless of the facts.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. I agree with your premise, but the news has it wrong.

You'll see soon enough. Munley did good, but that's not how it unfolded. Give it a few days for eyewitnesses to come forward, as the investigation finishes with gathering first person statements.

[gorfle]

15. Info on the 57

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven

[spin]

19. The Brady Campaign rears its ugly head again...

* The Five-Seven and 5.7x28mm ammunition were the target of brief controversy in the United States in 2004<16> when it was claimed by the Brady Campaign that commercially available SS192 penetrated a Level IIA vest in testing.<22> However, armor piercing variants of the 5.7x28mm are only offered to law enforcement and military customers.<23> Commercially available variants of the 5.7x28mm cartridge are classified by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) as being not armor piercing<24> and it was claimed that the SS192 and SS196 cartridge variants did not penetrate Kevlar vests in tests conducted by FNH USA.<24>

* The Five-Seven pistol and 5.7x28mm cartridge were specifically targeted for a U.S. federal ban in 2005, which failed.<25>

* On November 5, 2009, the weapon was again the target of controversy following its use by U.S. Army psychiatrist Major Nidal Malik Hasan in the Fort Hood
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven

They lie and exaggerate a lot.

[Euromutt]

25. But almost *anything* will penetrate a level II-A vest!

Level II-A is the lowest level of body armor acceptable under NIJ standards, and less than any patrol cop will wear; patrol cops typically wear level II or III-A.

Under NIJ standards 0101.04 & 05, level II-A body armor is supposed to resist a 9x19mm 124-gr FMJ or a .40 S&W 180-gr FMJ. It's not rated against 9mm +P loads, or even .40 165-gr loads, let alone anything more powerful (e.g. .38 Super, .357 SIG or .357 Magnum, and just forget about 10mm or .44 Magnum). In other words, there are many commercially available rounds that will penetrate a level II-A vest, mostly because level II-A isn't made to stand up to very much.

In testing, SS192s fired from a Five-seveN did not penetrate a level III-A vest, and besides, production of that round was discontinued in 2005. In all likelihood, what Hasan managed to get were SS197SR "sporting rounds."

[benEzra]

32. That's like saying "ZOMG a Smart car will exceed a 55mph speed limit!!! OH NOES!!!" (n/t)

[SteveM]

24. Last night, PBS continued the tag-team efforts re: 5.7mm guns...

A commentator was concerned about how the shooter at Ft. Hood was able to get hold of the 5.7mm pistol, and speculated that it was due to the many "loop holes" in gun laws.

[spin]

28. Either reporters are totally ignorant about firearms...

or they are purposefully lying to help the gun grabbers launch a new campaign against gun owners.

If they are ignorant about guns and unwilling to take the time to learn the basic facts about a simple subject, why should we trust anything they say about truly complicated subjects such as healthcare and the economy?

If they are lying, why should we believe anything they say. Exercising the right for a free press granted in the First Amendment involves some responsibility. By purposely lying about guns they effectively piss on the First Amendment.

Therefore, there is no reason to believe anything the media says. They are either fools or liars.

Sadly, there is no middle ground.