Fort Hood Shooter using a FN Five-Seven?

[RamboLiberal]

Federal agents, military investigators and Texas Rangers are investigating whether the gun used in the Fort Hood massacre was purchased at the "Guns Galore" shop in Killeen, Texas, according to the store co-manager.

The co-manager said the agents were interested in a FN pistol that uses 5.7 caliber ammunition.

The Associated Press, citing federal law enforcement sources, said the suspect used only one semi-automatic weapon in the attack.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/tracking-source-gun-ft-hood-shooting/story?id=9014618

[Gumbo]

1. I had heard

he was in fact using a 5-7.

[slackmaster]

2. Could be, and the Five-Sevenness of the pistol contributed nothing to the severity of the attack

Unless you are shooting armor-piercing ammunition, which is illegal for sale to civilians, and firing at targets that have some kind of armor that would resist more commonly used rounds, it really gives no advantage. I suspect that the small caliber, high-velocity rounds would tend to overpenetrate without expanding.

[Mr Horsefly]

5. FN Five-Seven

I believe over penetration in this case could be considered an "advantage". Remember he was shooting at a large group of people seated at a graduation ceremony. The round nose and hollow point bullets used in most pistols can penetrate a torso and injure a secondary victim, but when you're talking about spitzer bullets (in the case of the Five-Seven) you might see penetration through 3-4 victims. Even if he wasn't shooting the steel core rounds that are restricted to Police and Military buyers, you're still going to get penetration more consistent with a light carbine than a pistol.

Another advantage the Five-Seven might have in this scenario is that the small diameter of the shells gives you a significant increase in magazine capacity. The standard 20 round mag fits flush with the grip of the pistol, and third-party companies make extended ones that go up to 30 rounds.

The only major issue I see with his choice of weapon is that the 5.7mm round is new and has yet to be proven as a reliable man-stopper. This might even explain the high number of wounded vs killed.

[RamboLiberal]

3. Here we go folks - The Brady Campaign chimes in

Fort Hood Shooter Used 'Cop Killer' Armor-Piercing Handgun

WASHINGTON --- Four and a half years ago, three police organizations in the United States issued advisories to warn officers that a new handgun introduced into the U.S. market by a Belgium manufacturer of military firearms represented a unique threat to the safety of police officers.

It was a handgun that was designed to fire bullets through body armor. A U.S. Senator and a U.S. Congressman urged a legal ban on civilian possession of the firearm, which began being referred to as the “cop killer gun.”

The gun, manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable, and was designed as a military sidearm to complement military rifles made by the same company. One law enforcement expert referred to the Five-Seven as “an assault rifle that fits in your pocket.” While no police officer has reportedly been killed by a suspect armed with a Five-Seven, it may now have taken the lives of U.S. soldiers.

Today, several news sources are reporting that it was the Five-Seven that Nidal M. Hasan used in his shooting attack at Fort Hood in Texas Thursday. In January 2005, the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP), International Brotherhood of Police Officers (IBPO) and the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives (NOBLE), released their alert to the police community at a press conference, joined by U.S. Senator Charles Schumer and Congressman Elliott Engel of New York.

When first launched for civilian sales, company officials wrote on the company website that “enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar® helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated.” That language has since been removed by FN Herstal.

In early 2005, Brady Campaign staff purchased the weapon at a Virginia gun dealer and test-fired it.The bullets successfully penetrated a police Kevlar vest. As the nation's largest, non-partisan, grassroots organization leading the fight to prevent gun violence, the Brady Campaign, with its dedicated network of Million Mom March Chapters, works to enact and enforce sensible gun laws, regulations and public policies.

http://www.opposingviews.com/articles/news-fort-hood-shooter-used-cop-killer-armor-piercing-handgun-r-1257543702

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[Mr Horsefly]

7. The cop likely had a vest

I believe the policewoman who shot him would likely have been wearing body armor. CNN says she shot him 4 times but was shot herself in the exchange. She is now out of the hospital, so I assume it must have been a minor extremity wound or blunt trauma wound she got when her vest stopped the round. If it had penetrated her vest she would still be hospitalized, and media would be losing it's shit over armor piercing ammunition.

[RamboLiberal]

9. She was shot in the legs

One account I read said bullet went through both legs.

[AtheistCrusader]

6. This is a lie. The BATFE has tested the FN 5.7 extensively.

It does NOT penetrate vests with the appropriate, legal civilian ammo. No moreso than any other pistol. Period.

Arent' there some truth in advertising laws or something that can be leveraged against the fucking republicians at the brady bunch?

[Mr Horsefly]

8. They may have rigged the test by using an older/weakened vest

Not all body armor tests are created equal. Remember the Dragon Skin fiasco?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

10. Almost all pistol rounds, with AP ammo, will penetrate a level IIIA vest.

And thus, all AP pistol ammo is illegal for sale or distribution to civilians.
The 5.7mm SS190 round is DESIGNED to be armor peircing... just like a 9mm m93b (a NASTY AP round)
The 5.7mm civilian round does not penetrate a standard issue vest... just like a standard 9mm
Hasan, buying the ammo and gun personally, could have only bought civilian ammo.

1 + 1 = ???
anyone? Bueller?... Bueller?

[Mr Horsefly]

12. I agree with you

Plus buying AP stuff on the black market would be an unlikely event for this guy. I mean he looks a bit square to be dealing with Mexican gangs and such. :p

Still, the fact that the civilian round is also a spitzer-shaped bullet means he might get more penetration through multiple soft targets (the crowd). I can't decide if I think he bought it for that purpose, or for the 30 round mags you can get for it. Prolly both.

[TheWraith]

15. There are some SS190 rounds circulating on the civilian market.

However A) they cost about $10 a bullet, and B) there's no reason why AP ammunition would have been desirable in this case. Likely none of the people there was wearing body armor.

[X_Digger]

13. Or tested it without anything behind it..

If you hang a common body armor from a clothes hanger and fire at it, it doesn't hold up as well as when on a person.

[benEzra]

16. 5.7x28mm with civilian ammo won't penetrate anything rated to stop .357.

And a .357 with restricted military/LEO ammo will penetrate anything a 5.7x28mm will, and is far more lethal than 5.7 is.

Thing is, the .357 dates from the mid-1930's, so the "ZOMG NEWFANGLED SCAWWY GUN!!!" line doesn't work so well with it. The FiveSeven, on the other hand, is relatively new, so it is easier to paint as something hugely scary instead of an anemic centerfire .22 that's less powerful than even a 9mm.

[Hoopla Phil]

14. Is it confirmed that he used the "special" ammo that civilians CANNOT purchase?

[RamboLiberal]

11. 2nd gun S&W 357 Revolver

A second gun found with him was a 357 Magnum Smith and Wesson revolver, but it is not yet clear if Hasan used the weapon during the shooting.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/fort-hood-shooter-maj-nidal-malik-hasan-calm/story?id=9012995