Restaurants let Arizona’s CCW licensees know they’re welcome...

[spin]

CAVE CREEK – Mark Peagler, owner of the Silver Spur Saloon, says his business is safer by allowing people with concealed carry weapon (CCW) licenses to dine in his establishment, calling it “a deterrent” to criminals looking for a place to rob.

He said businesses posting signs stating, “We do not permit firearms” would logically be more desirable targets.

The Arizona State Rifle and Pistol Association (ASRPA), which turned 100 this year, is allowing business owners to advertise their eating establishments on its website (www.asrpa.com) without charge, to show its appreciation for those businesses that roll out their welcome mats for Arizona’s 140,799 CCW holders.

The new law that went into effect Sept. 30 now allows CCW holders to enter establishments that serve alcohol. Although they may not consume alcohol while carrying a concealed weapon, they may take advantage of other menu items and offerings.
http://www.sonorannews.com/archives/2009/091104/FrntPgRestaurants.html

I wonder what would happen if the gun friendly restaurants posted signs that said: Legally concealed firearms welcome.

Would the number of customers increase or decrease?

Undoubtedly, the restaurant would be the safest place to eat in town.

[JonQ]

1. But having all those guns in the hands of people legally qualified to have them

will surely lead to a surge in violence. Old west style shootouts will be commonplace.

Just as they are currently in shooting ranges and military bases.

[Captain Hilts]

2. Guess the fight in Tombstone was all for nothing. nt

[spin]

24. The showdown at the O.K. corral was probably more about...

power, ego and wealth than gun control.

The Clantons themselves were successful ranchers, with their ranch in Charleston, Arizona being one of the most successful in the territory at the time. Definitely they were associated with several outlaws, but there is little evidence that any large-scale planned outlaw operations were underway based at their ranch, as is often indicated in films. Although Ike Clanton was not well-liked, due mostly to his boasting while drinking, his brother Billy was quite popular, and considered level-headed and hard-working. Little is known about brothers John and Phin Clanton, and it appears they simply worked their ranch. It is known that Phin Clanton was arrested several times over the years, for cattle rustling and once for robbery, but he was never convicted, quite possibly due to the Clantons' involvement in the Cowboy group.

The Earp faction, although portrayed throughout history as lawmen doing what had to be done during the ultimate gunfight, were quite possibly viewed in Tombstone as men who took advantage of their authority to improve their market position on gambling, and enforcing the law against some while choosing not to do so against others. It should be noted there is no documentation to support either position.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunfight_at_the_O.K._Corral

The Earps probably enforced "may issue" gun control as opposed to "shall issue". Of course, our actual knowledge of the individuals involved is based primarily on legend and conjecture rather than indisputable fact.

[meegbear]

3. Is “We do not permit firearms” a common sign in Arizona?

[spin]

6. I can't speak for Arizona...

but when the concealed weapons law passed in Florida, many businesses posted "No Firearms" signs.

Many gun owners went out of their way to call the establishment and talk to the manager or owner. When I did, I would simply say, "While you have every right to forbid firearms, you have lost my business."

Several months later the signs came done. It's rare to see one today in Florida.

[PavePusher]

41. Pretty rare except at malls (go figure...)

and now at some bars.

[damntexdem]

4. I would love it if such restaurants did post the signs.

So I could avoid them and their negligent disregard for the safety of their patrons. I don't care to dine amid gunnuts carrying their phallic symbols locked and loaded.

[JonQ]

5. And if after say a year of this

it is shown that people in those restaurants are actually safer than those in gun-free ones?

[spin]

8. With the attitude the poster expressed...

he would continue to feel safer in restaurants that were more likely to be a target for a criminal than those who were proven safer.

[Hoopla Phil]

12. Maybe not but he/she would be much more nobel in their victimhood.

[Kolesar]

15. Presumably, an armed diner is going to fire across a room full of patrons to "defend" the restaurant

what bullshit. It would be funny if it was not such a demented fantasy.

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. He's got reports of just this kind of thing, and he'll post them directly.

Right after he posts the news about the blood in the street caused by Ohio's laxer gun laws...

[spin]

18. Perhaps in a movie...

the anti-gun crowd gets most of their knowledge about firearms from movies.

It's rare that I can watch an entire action film that involves firearms. The plot usually involves a Superman clone doing physically impossible stunts and shooting firearms with thousand round magazines in a careless manner. The "hero" usually racks up a body count in the hundreds and creates several major disasters in a matter of hours, including car pile ups, explosions and fires that would take days to clear up and would make international headlines.

Perhaps that explains much of the anti-gunner's attitude.

Hell, I've often wondered if Superman had a small penis.

[DonP]

21. Let's see, law abiding, armed citizens versus ...

... only the criminals carry guns?

Hmmmm? Choose a place with armed people that have been screened by the national check system, the local police, been fingerprinted and passed a background check, where I can eat with my family. Or a place where a no guns allowed sign is posted, so only a criminal that ignores the law might be carrying - and hope for the best.

Tough call. <sarcasm>

We'll all wait patiently for some of those examples of CCW people shooting places up trying to be a hero.

I'm just guessing here but ... Way too many Bruce Willis movies on some people's Netflix list?

[oneshooter]

31. If you want to know

what is legal, and allowed by the law then attend a CCL class. That way you won't be speaking out of ignorance!

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[eqfan592]

43. Thank you for proving you know absolutely nothing about firearms...

...nor the training that goes along with them. Your comment proving your current "drooling mouthed freper" state of being has been logged.

[Euromutt]

52. It's not about what you consider to be a credible risk to an offender

What matters is what the would-be offender considers to present a risk to his ability to complete the crime, and quite possibly his physical well-being. No matter how unlikely you consider any possible scenario in which an armed diner might successfully intervene (and it can happen: http://www.komonews.com/news/25829794.html), it follows that the chances are better than in an establishment that doesn't permit firearms. And all the available criminological evidence indicates that the prospect of possibly running into an armed private citizen does have a deterrent effect on crime (which is, for example, why a comparatively small percentage of American burglaries occur while the occupants of the dwelling are present).

[slackmaster]

57. It's obvious that you have never taken a self-defense class

Try one some time. Any discipline will do - Empty hand, edged weapon, firearm. The lessons are very similar.

[Kolesar]

58. Several years of karate

Pistol in college, several years on the college rifle team

...not that it has anything to do with armed diners defending the french fryer

[Zoeisright]

7. +1

[Hoopla Phil]

10. Please see post #9. Same question.

[Zoeisright]

22. Thanks for proving the point of the poster I recommended!

If you can't tell the difference between trained police officers and the general gun nut public, you're beyond help.

[Hoopla Phil]

28. You do realize that people with CCWs have to pass tests to get the CCW right? LOL.

[DonP]

34. Right, Because CCW license holders have a better safety record

Ah, another person that believes cops are magic as far as guns go and that they all get extensive secret training in firearms that individual citizens can't have.

Maybe some of our resident cops here will address this too.

Keep going on and on about what you "think", but willful ignorance is not attractive or a progressive value.

Don't bother checking or you might find out that police; 1. have no legal duty to protect you, SCOTUS has said repeatedly that you are on your own; 2. Have a higher incidence of negligent discharge of the firearms than "gun nut" CCW holders and; 3. Spend far less time practicing their marksmanship than their "gun nut" civilian counterparts.

That cop you think is a safe person with a gun and shoots magic bullets may only use his gun when he has to qualify once a year, maybe twice if he's diligent.

My brother in law is a Chicago cop and he gets more trigger time in when he comes to my house than he ever does on the shooting range in the city.

[spin]

39. The average cop is nowhere near as good a shooter...

as the regular shooter who shoots on a weekly basis and enjoys the shooting hobby.

However the average cop has far superior training and experience in handling tense situations.

But there are officers who enjoy shooting. They usually are excellent shots.

[oneshooter]

36. If I am there, I am carrying.

However concealed means CONCEALED. You will not know, because you cannot see a weapon.
Guess ya best stay home then, can't be to careful!

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[SteveM]

48. If the "gun nuts" have CCW, how would you know the diff? (nt)

[Hoopla Phil]

9. I trust you avoid anywhere armed police frequent as well?

[katandmoon]

11. Amen.

[spin]

13. Do you feel safe when you walk into a donut shop...

and find several police officers at the counter?

I used to work the late night shift and there was a donut shop within walking distance of work.

Always nice to enjoy a cup of coffee and a donut at 3 am surrounded by cops and strippers getting off work.

[SteveM]

49. Don't interrupt; she's at prayer (nt)

[friendly_iconoclast]

20. Be sure and avoid all places WITHOUT "No Guns Allowed' signs

Otherwise, you are either deluding yourself that you are not around people with guns, legally or not.

Or: You're a hypocrite.

Pick one.

And remember: Guns are only phallic symbols for people with head problems.

For the rest of us, they're machines that go *BANG* when you operate them.

-1 to you.

[chibajoe]

23. It always amazes me how

people who hate guns always obsess about penises and compensation.

[spin]

38. I wonder if it comes from a irrational fear of people who own firearms...

People often tend to stereotype those who frighten them with a broad brush.

I remember many derogatory comments made about all minorities when I grew up in northern Ohio in the 50's and the 60's. Obviously, the people who made these comments had little personal knowledge of the ethnic and religious groups they stereotyped. The rural area I lived in was 99.9% white Protestant. Still they degraded and looked down on blacks, Jews, Puerto Ricans, Catholics and believe it or not even Democrats. Fortunately, my parents were from Pittsburgh and never preached hatred.

I remember one high school incident. While in English class I mention that I thought social security was a good thing. My teacher went ballistic and proceeded to call me a socialist and possibly a Communist. I tried to mount a literate defense of my views but soon realized that the entire class was against me.

Fortunately I was part of a "click" composed of social outcasts. My best friends were a Brit who won the Ohio State Science fair in Astronomy, a guy who suffered from a terrible stutter who carried Einstein's Theory of Relativity with him to impress his teachers, and a loner who became a preacher. We didn't fit into any of the regular groups and were regarded with suspicion. If the rest of the class viewed me as a Communist because I was for labor unions, that was fine with me. My friends didn’t care if I was a Democrat or even a Communist. I still had girl friends (and good looking ones at that). God knows why.

You might wonder if we were picked on. We were because we were different. It proved a rewarding and educational experience.

The Brit demonstrated a judo choke hold on a willing victim in the locker room one day. The guy passed out. Nobody dared mess with him after that even though he wore weird shorts. The guy with a stutter carried a gravity knife and looked and acted very willing to use it. I broke a bully's nose after I tempted him into slapping me. My dad had taught me how to box and I had a pair of fast fists. I learned a lesson from that fight, the guys who enjoy pushing you around usually can't fight worth a damn (fortunately). The really tough guys don’t bother playing bully. We had one really bad ass character in our school that would wander into other high schools and start a fight with one of their tough guys. He didn’t waste time fighting with guys like me.

While we still have racism and ethnic and religious hatred in our country, the more progressive liberal segment of our country, many who are Democrats, are more politically correct and open minded than in the past. Those who suffer from disabilities or disorders are no longer fair targets. But gun owners are fair game for many of the liberal, elite Democrat intelligentsia. It must cause some of them to feel a sense of superiority when they call gun owners "ignorant red necks", "paranoid fools afraid of their shadow", "individuals compensating for their penis size", etc.

And again I find myself somewhat of an outcast. Instead of being a young Democrat in a rural white Republican region, I find myself a Democrat who enjoys the sport of shooting and has a carry permit. I find myself posting in the remote outback of DU called the Gungeon, regarded with suspicion and distrust by many of the mainstream posters.

Once more, I find I'm part of an interesting group who are to a degree rebels with a sincere belief backed up by facts. It amazes me that the anti gun group can’t formulate a good logical argument but instead usually substitutes emotion and insult.

I try to understand an emotional argument as I suspect that it may be based on a tragic incident that happened to the poster or someone close to them. I’ve been very fortunate as all my experiences and the experiences of my family have been positive when firearms are involved.

The insults cause me to laugh and to feel sorry for the poster who hoped to score points. Occasionally I read an original insult. I usually compliment the poster.

[OttavaKarhu]

27. My phallic symbol is my Rabbit Pearl

And it looks like a bunny, not a gun.

As for "locked and loaded," do you even know what that means?

[oneshooter]

30. All you have to do in Texas

is only patronize those places that have a 51% sign showing. It is illegal for a CCL holder to carry there.
SEE, a simple answer for you!!

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[PavePusher]

42. Wow.

Got a lot of CCW's shooting innocent people in restaurants were you live?

Cite?

[SteveM]

47. Well, I was with you until you dragged out your penis thing...

The negligence may very well rest with the establishment who says: "look at us! No guns allowed! No one can shoot at you! Have faith in that!" (Assuming, of course, that criminals may actually home in on that stink.)

But then you unzipped, pulled up your shirt, and looked down with near religious contemplation...

[xxqqqzme]

14. If you are carrying a concealed

weapon, you are not allowed to consume alcohol? If the weapon is concealed who knows? Do you have to announce you are carrying a concealed weapon upon entering the establishment? What's the point?

[slackmaster]

16. People who are licensed to carry concealed weapons have to comply with many laws specific to them

Laws that don't apply to people who are not carrying. Those are conditions of keeping the license, and violations can result in loss of the license at a minimum, up to and including fines and incarceration.

There is nothing special about the prohibition against drinking while carrying. It's not legal to consume alcohol while driving. If you do, you can lose your license or even be arrested. It's the same thing.

[OttavaKarhu]

26. The whole point is to support the law abiding

Those of us who go to the expense and trouble of a CCP--many of us in more than one state, to facilitate our self protection in traveling--have no interest in doing something stupid that loses our right to carry concealed.

The point of such laws is to reward the law abiding, not to proliferate umpty zillion laws trying to control every possible thing a human could do.

In my state, CCP has limits that include carrying openly or concealed in any alcohol-serving area that does not allow minors. I personally consider it too restrictive (I consider CCP too restrictive). But then I don't use alcohol, I just like Irish family-type pubs. Watch a little soccer, play a little chess, fling a little blarney.

I really do think you are missing the point about who carries concealed, and why. If I am immediately translated into a rape or queer bashing victim the moment I cross a state line, when I walk into a pub, what do you think I will consider more important? Retaining my legal right to carry? Or boozing one night for fun?

Please rethink your views of law abiding RKBA people. You imply that the law exists to ferret out cheats, and you leave no possibility that the best regulation may be self regulation. You imply that humans are incapable of good choices and self restraint.

[oneshooter]

32. In Texas I can go into a package store while armed.

However if a restaurant posts a 51% sign then CCL is not allowed. A 51% sign means that the establishment makes 51%+ of its sales in alcohol.
If they post a sign and do not make that limit in sales the TABC can, and will, pull their license to sell alcohol.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[Hoopla Phil]

33. I have a very cool and one minor correction.

If the establishment makes more that 51% of it's gross sales from the sale of alcohol for on premises consumption they are required to post the "red 51" sign and you cannot carry there. (you can carry into a liquor store)

I did not know TABC would pull the license on a place improperly displaying a 51 sign. Sometime in 1996 I walked into a Pizza Hut that was displaying a 51 sign and called TABC about it. The sign came down in about a week but they did keep selling beer. Maybe it was just a mix up of some sort.

[oneshooter]

35. If you want to check.

The licenses are color coded. I believe that 51% and over are red, and below 51% are blue. This license is required to be posted and available.
The TABC takes the 51% sign very seriously.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[eqfan592]

44. You do realize that the logic of your statement...

...is not all that far off from the logic used to promote an anarchistic society, right? Hey, maybe that's your thing, I dunno. Just thought I'd point it out. :)

[Extend a Hand]

19. here in Ohio

I've really never felt unsafe while dining out.

[spin]

25. Nor have I in Florida, but then I carry.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

29. Ohioan here! I don't feel unsafe while carrying either...

I don't feel unsafe while carrying either... however, I too carry wherever possible.
I generally like to seek restaurants where carry is allowed... but make exceptions for Olive Garden and Chipotle

[eqfan592]

45. OG is anti-CCW?

*sigh* I'm just waiting for somebody to sue the crap out of one of these places because they weren't able to effectively defend themselves due to their ridiculous policies.

[oneshooter]

46. Not in Texas. N/T

[Kolesar]

51. Ogio? Is that next to Pennsylvania?

btw, what's a freper?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

55. OG = Olive garden. They are not antigun. Serve alcohol = NO carry in OH. eom

[armueller2001]

53. I'm sure that

those students at NIU and Virginia Tech "felt" safe before they were executed. I'm sure that every woman who has ever been raped or murdered has "felt" safe until something unfortunate happens.

I "feel" safe driving around, but I still wear my seat belt because I understand the risks, and I also understand the difference between FEELING safe and actually BEING safe.

[Kolesar]

54. I could barely afford tuition, much less afford a backpack firearm

I didn't even have a car in college.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

56. You can get revolvers for

[virginia mountainman]

37. Very Nice! Lots of places listed!! LINK...

http://www.asrpa.com/html/ccw_cafe_s.html

[PavePusher]

40. They'd definitely have me as a customer. n/t

[SteveM]

50. Anyone: is this Siskel and Ebert (sp) thing a national trend?