OOPS: NRA "A" rated Democrat Owens wins NY-23 Congressional seat

[friendly_iconoclast]

my bad...Apologies to Rep-elect Owens.

And *that* for those who claim "NRA=GOP".

I suspect they will studiously ignore this..

[derby378]

1. Try replacing the title of that other thread with "self-delete"

Helps me out occasionally. :hi:

[meegbear]

2. And your point caller?

[proteus_lives]

5. I believe that the point is gun ownership and gun rights are liberal values.

And they should be recognized by the rest of the party membership as such.

[Hepburn]

10. And who said YOU make the rules?

I hate guns.

[eqfan592]

12. Civil liberties, and their protection, are corner stones of the Progressive movement...

...so you can't be opposed to the 2A and still claim to be a true progressive.

So you hate guns. Good for you. Don't but any. But don't force your closed mindedness on the rest of society like some rotten to the core religious zealot.

[Hepburn]

20. And again:

Who said YOU made the rules? :eyes:

As an alleged progressive, are you alleging I have no right to hate guns and the violence and death they create?

Geeeeeee, I thought the First Amendment was kind of important, too. Guess to a gun loon, it's not.

[TheWraith]

23. Ask the same question about yourself.

Who gave you the right to decide how everybody else is supposed to live their lives?

How is your desire to ban your neighbor from owning guns "for their own good" any different from the right-wingers' desire to ban abortion?

[DonP]

26. Let's see, he has the Constitution, SCOTUS and pretty much every progressive law professor-on his si

... along with the growing number of concealed carry license holders, 48 states that allow CCW, and a majority of Americans that don't want any more gun laws than we already have.

and you have - "feelings" that guns frighten you - "for the children".

Well, nobody really cares how you feel, any more than anyone cared how George Wallace felt when he wanted to ignore the law because he didn't agree with it.

Make yourself feel better and mail the Brady group a check today. It will b the only one they get all month besides the big one from the Joyce Foundation. Then you can find a nice Gun Control web board to share strategies for more gun control - what's that? There are none on the entire web? How can that be with so many people like you out there?

[DonP]

13. Funny, they speak highly of you

Do you have other inanimate objects that you have strong emotions about?

I once had a Studebaker that was out to get me, but it got better.

FWIW the Constitution defines the rules. You can hate them all you want, but they are here to stay.

[proteus_lives]

14. Go ahead, hate guns.

I don't care if you never even look at a gun. Just don't attempt to take away my right to own a gun or purchase one.

And you don't make the rules either. Gun rights/ownership are progressive and liberal values. Real liberals don't attempt to strip their fellow citizens of their rights.

[eqfan592]

15. Well said!

"Real liberals don't attempt to strip their fellow citizens of their rights."

Couldn't have put it better myself! :D :toast: :beer: :yourock:

[Name removed]

21. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oneshooter]

17. I HATE HELICOPTERS!!!

They have tried to kill me three times.

BUT you don't see or hear of me trying to outlaw them. They, like firearms, have a legitimate purpose in society.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[SteveM]

19. Here is my take on why 2A is a liberal value...

Certainly, our country is founded on liberal values of liberty, individual rights, and a government which is both charged with protection of those rights and limited in its own power. As such, individuals have the right to live and defend themselves -- one of the reasons for the right to keep and bear arms. Beyond this, one has only to study the restrictions on blacks -- during slavery and the Jim Crow eras -- and see that the paramount restriction was on the ownership of firearms.

The white power structure in the South was not stupid; i.e., if you are going to revoke liberty, individual rights and provide no defense for these rights through government, then you damned well better keep those you enslave unarmed. The Southern power structure was NOT liberal when they controlled/banned guns for blacks, and they did this well into the 20th Century.

In modern times, the greatest boost to blacks and minorities was the "Civil Rights Era" which saw the passage of the civil rights and voting rights acts, as well as numerous court rulings. Not only did segregated public accommodations collapse, but the capricious state courts restricting the rights of minorities largely came to an end. This included the right to keep and bear arms. Most of these laws and rulings were based on the 14th Amendment (1868) which not only defined a U.S. citizen, but said: "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the law." The debate which accompanied this post-Civil War amendment was replete with references to how blacks were denied even the means to PROTECT THEMSELVES WITH ARMS. I would venture to say that had the right to keep and bear arms were somehow not under attack in the South, the 14th Amendment may never have been proffered.

Please visit www.georgiacarry.org and search locally for the legal brief submitted in the SCOTUS Heller decision for a remarkable summary of the racist roots of gun control. Also, visit BenEzra's journal to read his take on the subject.

I think it ironic that modern "liberals" claim that their Jim Crow cause is somehow progressive; they just moved the rebel flag north.

[TheWraith]

22. And I hate cigarettes.

But if someone thinks that personally hating something is enough excuse to have it banned, they need to think again.

[bluestateguy]

3. Is he?

Assuming he keeps that status, he'll be endorsed by the NRA outright next year.

More pro-gun Democrats in Congress is a good thing.

[DonP]

4. Somebody will have to break the news to him ...

We've been told that the NRA only supports the GOP and that gun control is a true Democrat value we all have to support..

Ergo Owens must be a right wing shill to have their support. It will get even worse in the next election because he'll get support as the incumbent ... if he stays away from the gun control wing of the party that is.

Perhaps one of our own gun control people would like to e-mail his campaign office and correct him immediately?

[proteus_lives]

6. Good news!

NRA=GOP is false and almost as false as gun rights/ownership=rethug value.

[paulsby]

18. it's like saying NARAL = Dems

MOST dems are pro-choice. most repubs are NOT.

hence, naral tends to favor dems. duh

that doesn't make them = democratic party. i would assume naral would support a pro-choice repub over an anti-choice dem.

could somebody look that up for me :)

the same applies to the NRA. they are a civil rights advocacy group. sadly, more repubs than dems support that constitutional right. that's THEIR fault, not the NRA's

[TheWraith]

24. NARAL was actually a major donor to Scozzafava, the Repub in the NY-23rd.

Because she has a long pro-choice history, and he has no voting history on it.

[paulsby]

25. thank you

for finding an example of what i assumed to be true.

[Sebastian Doyle]

7. Where were you in the 2004 primary

When Wayne La Fucking Nutjob mobilized his batshit lunatic troops against the candidate that was rated "A" by the NRA the entire time he was Governor of Vermont.

[DonP]

8. I don't think the NRA takes positions in primaries ...

... they never have in the past, but if you have any cites or examples to share with us how they attacked Governor Dean, we'd all be happy to read them and become more educated on the facts.

Otherwise, feel free to make shit up that sounds good to you.

[friendly_iconoclast]

9. He lost the "A" , and the NRA said why at the time

A minute on the Googlenet machine found this (emphasis added):

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?ID=127


Chris Cox`s Political Report, February 2004

....Howard Dean proudly claims to have been endorsed by the National Rifle Association, and indeed it is true that the NRA`s Political Victory Fund (PVF) endorsed Dean in his re-election bid for governor of Vermont in 2000. But NRA members know that an endorsement by NRA-PVF in one election is not an endorsement forever. Endorsements are made based on several criteria specific to individual elections, including candidates` statements, voting records and other pertinent information. Dean was endorsed based on his position on issues specific to Vermont that were current at that time.

Looking back to the race for Democratic presidential nominee, let`s see how Dean stacks up on national issues of current concern. Next year in the nation`s capital, we`ll be pushing hard to pass S. 659 through the Senate. We know we`re facing a big battle over the fate of the Clinton gun ban, and we also expect more debate over the future of gun shows and the operations of the National Instant Check System (NICS), among other things.

Here`s what Dean had to say on these issues, in an interview with National Public Radio: "Here`s what my position is and what it would be as president. Keep the assault weapons ban. I favor that and it ought to be renewed. Keep the Brady Bill, close the gun-show loophole, and then let every state decide for themselves what additional gun control they need." A few months later, Dean told the Children`s Defense Fund his opinion of S. 659:

"I would vote no, and I`d veto the bill as president . . . I do not believe we ought to exempt gun dealers, who may be breaking the law, from liability. That doesn`t make any sense whatsoever."

Of course, S. 659 wouldn`t exempt any lawbreaker from liability, but Dean`s ignorance of the bill is no excuse for a reflexively anti-gun answer to a question of pressing national importance. Mr. Dean, you can`t have it both ways when it comes to our firearms freedoms....

[spin]

11. Typical politician. (n/t)

[benEzra]

27. That was because Dean was sucked in for a while by the "assault weapon" fraud...

and thereby (perhaps unwittingly) endorsed banning the most popular centerfire rifles in the United States. He also stumbled into the "guns are legitimate for hunting only" trap, when only 1 in 5 gun owners hunts.

http://www.ontheissues.org/2004/Howard_Dean_Gun_Control.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/31/us/dean-walks-a-tightrope-over-positions-on-gun-control.html

That would have gotten him about a D rating had he held those positions while governor. It also kept gun owners from rallying behind him.

Pro-gun Dems were a lot smarter on the issue in 2006 and it showed in the results.

[paulsby]

16. look at these facts regarding pro gun results in this election

from www.volokh.com

NY-23: Winning Democrat Bill Owens was A-rated by NRA (as was Hoffman).

Virginia: Either Deeds (B rating) or McDonnell (A) were sure to be a big improvement over outgoing Governor Kaine. Deeds lost the NRA endorsement by supporting closing of the (non-existent) “gun show loophole.” In the Attorney General race, Republican Ken Cuccinelli (A+) handily defeated a D-rated Democrat who advertised very aggressively on the gun show issue. Incumbent Lt. Gov. Bill Bolling (A+) trounced an F-rated challenger.

In the Virginia House of Delegates, five Republican challengers with A ratings ousted Democratic incumbents rated F,F,B,B,B. A C-rated Republican also unseated an F Democrat incumbent. The House of Delegates already had a fairly solid pro-Second Amendment majority, so the major change in Virginia is a new Governor who, like former Governor and current Senator Mark Warner (Dem.), will sign rights-enhancing legislation passed by the legislature.

By far the most prominent gun control advocate on the ballot this year was Jon Corzine (F). This summer, Corzine twisted lots of legislative arms to win enactment of gun rationing (“one-handgun-a-month”), a silly law that is even sillier in New Jersey, where every handgun purchase requires advance permission from the local police chief. With Christie replacing Corzine, New Jersey gun owners can hope for benign neglect rather than active hostility. The New Jersey Assembly appears to be unchanged.

In sum: A bad night for advocates of gun show restrictions. Another fine night (as were election nights 2006 and 2008) for Democrats with A ratings from NRA. And good news for Second Amendment advocates in blue New Jersey and purple Virginia.