(Candian) Gun registry controversy exploded on Internet

[davepc]

Canada’s controversial gun registry was the country’s first scandal at the dawn of the Internet age, says Maryantonett Flumian, who ran the Canadian Firearms Centre for 18 months in the late 1990s.

The Internet allowed average Canadians to express their outrage about the cost and complexity of the gun registry, she said.

But it also allowed a minority to hijack the issue, sometimes using mistruths, said Flumian.

“Particularly, the anti-fire arms registry lobby was very adept at getting their message out,” she said Monday. “It went viral.”

...

http://dailygleaner.canadaeast.com/front/article/770885

[iverglas]

1. “It went viral.”

Yeah. Kinda like that one about Obama's birth certificate, or the absence thereof.

And, of course, most of the shit posted in this forum about crime in the UK, crime in Australia, crime in Canada, the Cdn firearms registry ...


A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

Just think, if Samuel Clemens could see it now.

[michreject]

2. A tale of two Samuel's

Samuel Clemens would applaud the success story of Samuel Colt.

[friendly_iconoclast]

3. Unfortunately for you, a lot of it turned out to be *true*

Seems Frumian said a few, ah, inconvenient things in that article. Guess you hoped no one would notice
these gems:

....She said it was a combination of poor planning and management, constantly changing requirements of information technology, political pressure to move quickly and a lack of understanding of the country’s urban- rural divide that put it off the rails at the beginning....

....She said the initial eight-page registration form was so complicated that even senior civil servants and police officers couldn’t fill it out correctly....

How tacky of her to confirm to the punters that program she ran was a clusterfuck. That sort of
thing could lead to the impression that government is sometimes fallible. Can't have that now, can we?

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE:

This from an MP who investigated the firearms registry:

...Williams said the gun registry cost hundreds of millions of dollars more than first budgeted because it was poorly planned, poorly managed and driven by politics.

“My remarks today were highly critical of the way the government in the early part of this decade decided to keep Parliament in the dark about the costs. They were embarrassed to come forward and tell (Parliament) the costs were out of control.’’ Williams said the Department of Justice went so far as to exceed its authorized budget for the gun registry by $39 million and used bogus legal opinions to hide it....

Of course, some might say this isn't true because "he's a winger". To which I would say:

Show us that his statements are factually wrong (without the usual bafflegab and self-righteousness) and we'll talk

[iverglas]

4. "an MP who investigated the firearms registry"

Don't tell me, let me guess. It was Breitkreuz!!!

The OBSCENE RIGHT-WING MISOGYNIST PIECE OF SHIT who LIED THROUGH HIS TEETH for years about the start-up costs of the firearms registry, until someone finally figured out his game.

That's whom you're quoting at me?

Congratulations!

I don't say "he's a winger". Nonsense USAmerican talk.

But no, of course, it was John Williams. Note how he does NOT quote his fellow Alberta MP Breitkreuz, the one whose LIE that the start-up costs were $2B has gone around the world more times than that. Or repeat the lie. Interesting, eh?

But yeah, you go ahead and quote a filthy right-wing Reform Party MP if you like. How his opinions could be "true" or "untrue", I dunno.

"poorly planned, poorly managed and driven by politics"? An awful lot of things in government are poorly planned and poorly managed. Hell, the US would have no military if poor planning and poor management were a criterion for cancelling. But no one will disagree that the Liberal Party has a talent for poor management and bad spending.

Driven by politics? Well, his opinions certainly are.

The establishment of the firearms registry was driven by public opinion, the public being who elects politicians, politicians therefore being driven by public opinion. We do call that "politics", don't we?


"But it also allowed a minority to hijack the issue, sometimes using mistruths, said Flumian."

"Mistruths". Lies, I think.


Williams spent most of his career investigating how much the government paid civil servants for clothing that was damaged on the job and such like things -- "waste! waste! waste!" -- so his real right-wingery isn't in evidence much in things on the net. (He denounced MPs' pensions his entire career, then when he retired he began to draw his in full so he could work allegedly full-time for free for a global organization against political corruption. Does anyone see irony?)

Obviously, to one of his ilk, virtually ALL government spending is waste, and ANY spending on a firearms registry in particular is waste.

http://www.egale.ca/index.asp?lang=E&menu=21&item=400

John Williams, MP (Reform/Canadian Alliance):

“Going back to the dawn of history and even before, society has organized its way in solid, committed unions between men and women. That is the way in which every society in the world has organized itself. There must be something in it.”

http://www.egale.ca/index.asp?item=425

At last year’s Reform Party policy convention, a motion affirming the right of Canadians to equality was explicitly amended to remove any reference to the right of Canadians to be protected from discrimination.

Mr. John Williams, MP:

"That is why I find it repulsive. It is not only the fact that sexual orientation is in here which I find repulsive but that a few Canadians are being told that they are entitled to special treatment."



misplaced apostrophe fixed

[friendly_iconoclast]

5. All that wharrgarbl, and no answer?

I simply wanted to know if the registry covered up their cost overruns (as Williams alleges), or not.

I am familiar with badly run government projects w/ concomitant cost inflation (google "Big Dig"),
but I am not endorsing people like Howie Carr by confirming verifiable facts.



iverglas, you need to brew yourself a nice cup of chamomile, sit down and sip it, and after a few deep, cleansing breaths say to yourself:

"Even turds like Breitkreuz and Williams might be correct once in a while. To acknowledge this is not to endorse their characters or agree with them otherwise."

[iverglas]

8. the answer?

I hadn't actually noticed a question.

I simply wanted to know if the registry covered up their cost overruns (as Williams alleges), or not.

My answer: I don't know and I don't give a crap. Why would I?

If the local social assistance office let an untendered contract for somebody to supply coffee to the social workers for $10 a cup three times a day, would I demand that the municipality close down its welfare program?

Man, you people are desperate.

What in the fucking fuck does incompetent administration of the start-up of a government program have to do with ... well, I don't even know what you're suggesting it has to do with.


"Even turds like Breitkreuz and Williams might be correct once in a while. To acknowledge this is not to endorse their characters or agree with them otherwise."

Correct about ... what? Something I give a crap about?

Breitkreuz outright lied about the start-up costs of the registry for years. And colleagues, and possibly you, I wouldn't bother knowing, repeated those lies in this forum for years. Do I care about anything he or his fellow travellers say? Nope. Do I have any trust in the intelligence or integrity of people who repeat his lies? Nope.


Can you maybe expand a little on whatever point it is you think you have?

There were cost over-runs in the start-up of a government program several years ago, so _____________. ?




typo fixed

[friendly_iconoclast]

10. OK, we agree Breitkreuz is a shit. Now can we talk about the gun registry?

Seems Breitkreuz, et al, took a grain of truth and ran away with it. To pretend all truth lies with the virtuous is sophomoric.

BTW, the following is the sum total of all my previous writings about the Canadian Firearms registry:




Zip, nada, nothing. Happy now?


Now I'm asking you, as you claim Breitkreuz lied about the start-up costs and so presumably have the real figures.
I am attempting to compare it to another large, badly managed government program, Boston's Big Dig (formally
the Central Artery Tunnel project). That turned out mostly okay, despite overruns on the order of 1200-1500%

What were the initial estimates of cost? What did it turn out to be? What did Breitkreuz say it was/is?

Same questions regards the timeframe and % of eligible firearms actually registered.

[iverglas]

11. and I'm telling you

-- actually, I think I already told you, about as clearly as possible --

What were the initial estimates of cost? What did it turn out to be? What did Breitkreuz say it was/is?

-- I don't give a flying fuck. And I'm the one footing the bills.

If you want to investigate it, feel free.

But since I'll spit on Breitkreuz every opportunity I get: he invented the meme that the start-up cost was $2B. It turned out that he'd at least doubled actual costs, by adding in the paperclips individuals attached to their applications, basically.

And Gary Mauser, professor emeritus of business extraordinaire ran with that number. Mauser, every DU gun militant's favourite Canadian sycophant.

Damn, I see I'm repeating myself.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=235208&mesg_id=235215

iverglas
Thu Jul-02-09 03:06 PM
Response to Original message

4. and my favourite so far, courtesy of the charming Gary Breitkreuz

You know. Right-wing asshole Conservative Member of Parliament, best buddy with Gary Mauser, the professor emeritus of Business Administration; together, they are the gun militants' best friends in Canada.

And we can all answer the question: How much did the Canadian Firearms Registry cost to set up?

All together now: TWO BILLION DOLLARS!!

I really have to look into this some more, but so far, we have this.

http://telegraphjournal.canadaeast.com/search/article/703339

June 18th, 2009

OTTAWA - The $2-billion figure often cited as the cost of the gun registry is a Saskatchewan MP's "fabrication" that took on a life of its own as Conservative MPs and the media repeated it for years, says a new study.

... <Breitkreuz> began calling the gun registry a "$1-billion boondoggle." But within four months his language had escalated into "a $2-billion boondoggle." The study says Breitkreuz "strategically created" that catch phrase. The study calls it his "fabrication."

... He said then he'd added <Auditor General> Fraser's $1 billion figure to another $1 billion estimated cost of enforcing the legislation. He said it was based on his own calculations of an estimated $200 cost for each licensed firearm owner as well as a decline in hunting and tourism that he argued could be blamed on the registry.

In fact, he said, "when you take into account all of that and the loss of revenue to the government, it goes well beyond the $2 billion."

... In 2006, Fraser's latest look at it concluded the total net cost up to March 2005 was $946 million.

And again, there's more there that needs to be read. (Note that it repeats the inaccurate statement that the registry "began" in 1995. The legislation was passed in 1995. Registration wasn't required until several years later.)

Honest as the day is long, gun militants.

Not a shred of credibility, any of them and anyone who has ever cited them.


Maybe you'll let me know what you find so pressingly fascinating about the start-up costs of a government program in a foreign country ...


Same questions regards the timeframe and % of eligible firearms actually registered.

Go find yourself a library. I'm not it.

[rd_kent]

6. "The OBSCENE RIGHT-WING MISOGYNIST PIECE OF SHIT who LIED THROUGH HIS TEETH" - you just plain hate

men, dont you? Your overuse of misogynist against everyone that disagrees with you proves it true. Your misandry is really not becoming at all. Drop the hate.......

[friendly_iconoclast]

7. I don't think iverglas is all that misandrist

I think she is too quick to resort to ad hominems, and the "R,R-WM" meme is her favorite (rhetorical) club to use on people.

Too bad, because when she sticks to the facts she's usually pretty damn good.

[iverglas]

9. you just plain can't speak an honest true word, can you?

Your overuse of misogynist against everyone that disagrees with you proves it true.

Educate your tiny mind.

The man has made a career of misogyny. He eats, breathes and sleeps misogyny. He is the poster boy for misogyny. And no man that I know would cross the street to spit on him.

He majored in misogyny with a minor in homophobia, of course.

One recognized explanation for the prevalence of all things nasty and right-wing in Alberta is that it is unique among the provinces for the large volume of immigration from the US some decades ago. Alberta got the fundamentalist cretins. The rest of us got the good stuff.



http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/breitkreuzgpress/Life2.htm

Ottawa – “Yesterday was a sad day for the unborn,” lamented Garry Breitkreuz, MP for Yorkton-Melville. The Saskatchewan MP made the remark after watching his Private Member’s Motion M-228 go down to defeat after just one hour of debate in the House of Commons. “The motion never had a chance in Parliament. Just like the more than 100,000 unborn babies that will never have a chance in the abortion clinics and hospitals across Canada this year.” Breitkreuz’s motion proposed to amend the definition in section 223(1) the Criminal Code that states that a baby isn’t a human being until it emerges completely from the womb. One Liberal and one Bloc MP voted against two motions of unanimous consent moved by Breitkreuz to make his motion votable and to refer the motion to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/breitkreuzgpress/aborti04.html

"Using taxpayers' dollars to fund abortions actually contravenes Section 3 of the Canada Health Act because an abortion does not 'protect, promote and restore physical and mental well-being', that abortion does not 'prevent disease' and is not an 'illness'. Over 98% of all abortions are not 'medically required'. In fact, research shows that abortion is not therapeutic; it is actually harmful to a woman's mental and physical health."

http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/breitkreuzgpress/abort17.htm

Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the first petition that I would like to present concerns my Woman's Right to Know Act. I am presenting petitions signed by 3,263 concerned Canadians from across Canada who support my Woman's Right to Know Act. These petitioners support my bill because it would guarantee that all expectant mothers considering an abortion would be given complete information by their physician about all the risks of the procedure before being referred for an abortion and would provide penalties for doctors who perform an abortion without the fully informed consent of the mother and penalties for doctors who perform a medically unnecessary abortion. On Thursday of this week, thousands of people will gather on Parliament Hill for the annual March for Life. They march every year to mourn the death of more than 100,000 unborn children in Canada through medically unnecessary abortions. As you can see, Mr. Speaker, there is quite a number of petitioners.

http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/breitkreuzgpress/abort15.htm

Yorkton – Garry Breitkreuz, MP for Yorkton-Melville, has taken another bold step in his ten-year fight to protect the rights of unborn children. Yesterday, he introduced a Private Member’s Motion M-560 that calls on the government to create a new criminal code offence for the murder of an unborn child. “Parliament must send a clear message to anyone contemplating using deadly force against a pregnant woman,” said Breitkreuz.

Motion M-560 states: That, in the opinion of this House, the government should introduce an amendment to the Criminal Code of Canada creating a new offence to ensure that any person who murders a woman knowing that she is pregnant, shall be charged with the murder of the unborn child.

http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/breitkreuzgpress/family16.htm

OTTAWA – Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative Member of Parliament for Yorkton-Melville, defended the very foundation for healthy families today in the House of Commons by speaking out against Bill C-38, the Liberal government’s same-sex marriage legislation. Breitkreuz shared some of the letters he has received from constituents. By doing so, Members of the House were able to hear firsthand what the majority of Canadians believe – the traditional definition of marriage needs to be upheld by the Canadian government.

http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/oped08.htm

A large number of men and women expressed grave concerns about the government’s direction in several moral and ethical areas. Legalizing same-sex marriages is a very upsetting prospect to many people. Moreover, including homosexuality in the list of hate crimes was seen as going down a slippery slope. Several men and women also questioned why the government tolerates child pornography. Garry advocates protecting children from the violent and vile. This means that the age of consent for sexual activity should be raised to sixteen; and we must take stronger steps to fight child prostitution, child pornography and pedophilia.

<It was a lying right-wing tactic to claim that the government's adjustment of child pornography legislation in response to a Supreme Court decision was equal to approving child pornography>

The Divorce Act and child custody is a concern to many in the riding. Breitkreuz supports the concept of shared parenting proposed in the December 1998 report of the Special Joint Committee on Child Custody and Access, which is still gathering dust, contrary to the interest of both parents and children.

<Mandatory "shared parenting" in divorce law is a patriarchal power play and we all know it.>

[Tony238]

12. One track mind

No one here is disagreeing with you that Gary is a prick, they're just saying he might be right on ONE issue. You just respond by saying he is bad and therefore wrong about everything including the colour of the sky.

[iverglas]

13. a new fan! a new fan!

Like moths to the candle, aren't they??




Out, out, damn'd typo.

[iverglas]

14. the fan club needs to do its homework

The assignment is to read everything I write. Simple enough.

No one here is disagreeing with you that Gary is a prick, they're just saying he might be right on ONE issue. You just respond by saying he is bad and therefore wrong about everything including the colour of the sky.

C'mon now. It's right here in this thread. Quoted from a post written in early July.

It's the fan club's job to study the collected writings of iverglas. It is not iverglas's job to do a 5-year review every time a new member joins.

Breitkreuz might be right on this issue? No. Breitkreuz lied on this issue. Lied, deliberately and calculatedly, for the sole purpose of advancing his political agenda. Lied, and lied, and kept on lying.


Now, as for that

One track mind

-- there certainly is one in this thread. I call a career misogynist a misogynist, and I get lied about in response.

The fan club must learn the concepts. This one is: ad locutorem argument. An attack on the speaker rather than on the speech. Who was the victim of this attack? Moi. An attempt was made to deflect my assertion that Breitkreuz is a dishonest piece of shit by asserting that I hate men. While my true and accurate assessment of him as a misogynist does not bear directly on the truth of his statements generally, it is nonetheless true and accurate. The accusation that I hate men is just a tiresome falsehood.

Live and learn, grasshopper. Most importantly, pay attention. The seeds of integrity are within you all, just waiting for the gentle rain of candour and the shining sun of reason to awaken them.

[Tony238]

16. Attacking the speaker

You talk about being attacked rather than your argument yet what do you do? You deflect and call Breitkreuz a misogynist rather than refute the argument.

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. Breitkreuz wasn't in the linked article, so the digression is puzzling

But we did get an (somewhat deserved) attack on him, even tho he was nowhere mentioned.

"See, Williams is an asshole, and his ally Breitkreuz is an even bigger assshole."

Well, yes, they are a pair of proctologists' delights, but as I said-

'Truth isn't solely the preserve of the vituous'

I guess we weren't to notice that Williams had an 'broken clock' moment in the linked article...

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. And after that tour of the seamier bits of the Canadian RW, guess what?

Turns out that Williams was somewhat accurate in that particular quote.

Although the firearms registry's cost overruns didn't quite achieve the multiples of initial estimated cost
that the Big Dig did, an example that would have made Boss Tweed blush.