Milwaukee man shoots 2 armed robbers.

[gorfle]

Once again proving that sometimes people successfully fight back even when the bad guys have the drop on them.

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/53259052.html

"A man was being robbed at gunpoint when he pulled out his own gun and shot one of the suspects.

It all happened early Thursday near 1st and Clarke. The 23-year-old Milwaukee man was in the area when two teenagers pulled out a gun and tried to rob him.

That victim also had a gun. He shot and killed one suspect, 17-year-old Kevin Ollie. Ollie's gun also went off, and he accidentally shot the other teen robber."

Looks like in the end he had a little help though - from one of the robbers. LOL.

[sharesunited]

1. Vic's gun as a solution to perps' guns. Valentine to the NRA.

[katandmoon]

2. It's thanks to dickless gunworshippers that guns are so freely available

That just about anyone who wants one to commit mayhem with one can easily get one. No restrictions on gun availability mean there will be no end to gun violence. So just keep on posting these gun "success stories" to make yourself feel better about it. For every "success story" you post there are many more gun tragedies you don't dare post.

[slackmaster]

4. Meanwhile, hysterical gun ban advocates weep and wail over dead crooks, and accomplish nothing

:nuke:

No restrictions on gun availability mean there will be no end to gun violence.

In fact we do have many restrictions on gun availability. Please tell us what additional ones you think would help with the problem of violent crime.

[sharesunited]

5. Start to make guns and ammo scarce. Turn this decay of civilization around.

Stop making, importing, selling new product.

[slackmaster]

8. Your plan does not address the root causes of crime in any way

Your response to every gun-related crime is to take guns away from all of the people who didn't do it.

Guns don't cause crime. People cause crime. There was crime before guns were invented. The decay of civilization is the result of bad behavior being rewarded.

[sharesunited]

9. The perps' guns started out SOMEWHERE as good guns, just like most guns do.

But from the moment of their creation, they were part of a growing pool available to do harm.

I'll second your desire to address the root causes of crime.

But let's make these products which embolden and enable crime scarce as a public policy objective.

[jody]

11. Also "perps' started out SOMEWHERE as good guys, just like most guys do." Among the factors that

cause a "good guy" to turn to crime are cultural factors and economic factors affecting a specific culture as is implicit in the FBI report "Racial differences exist, with blacks disproportionately represented among homicide victims and offenders".

I Hope Obama can find time eventually to address this issue because that's more important than having a few beers with a prof & cop in the White House Tavern.

[slackmaster]

13. I asked you this yesterday, and you haven't responded, so I'll ask again

...But let's make these products which embolden and enable crime...

Can you point to any scientific research to back that up? Or is that just your own pet theory?

[sharesunited]

14. Some things are axiomatic. You seem to believe that a decision to commit a crime is unconditional.

That if a gun is not available, it will nevertheless go forward with a fly swatter or a shoe horn.

Can you understand why I didn't bother to respond to you with some link to a research study?

Who would bother researching something so self-evident and incapable of being measured?

[slackmaster]

22. You didn't bother to respond with a link to a research study, because you can't produce one

Who would bother researching something so self-evident and incapable of being measured?

Anything that is incapable of being measured falls under faith, not science.

I question your belief for the following reasons:

1. Violent crimes of all kinds happened before firearms were invented, and they happen in places where firearms are not available, and

2. A large majority of people who own guns never misuse them.

The only element that is common among pre-firearm times, places where there are no firearms, and places where firearms are available, is individuals who are willing to commit crimes. Most serious crimes are committed by people who already have criminal records.

[Euromutt]

25. For "axiomatic" read "begging the question"

An axiom is a premise which is taken as a given for the sake of the argument. It's supposed to serve as a starting point for further reasoning, not as the conclusion; when you demand we accept the very conclusion you're arguing towards as a given premise, you're literally "begging the question" (http://fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html).

When it comes to the term "self-evident," Thomas Jefferson has a lot to answer for. In epistemology, to quote Wikipedia, "a self-evident proposition is one that is known to be true by understanding its meaning without proof." For example, it's held to be self-evident that "a finite whole is greater than any of its parts" because part of something must by definition be smaller than the whole.

You seem to believe that a decision to commit a crime is unconditional. That if a gun is not available, it will nevertheless go forward with a fly swatter or a shoe horn.

"A fly swatter or a shoe horn," right. Because it's not like anybody's ever committed a violent crime using a knife, baseball bat, straight razor, pickaxe handle, sharpened screwdriver, lug nut wrench, replica samurai sword, or any of a myriad of bladed and bludgeoning implements that exist in the world.

In the United States, firearms are used in about 2/3 of homicides, from which it follows that 1/3 are committed by other means. The ratio of handguns to knives as murder weapons has been about 4 to 1 in the past decade, while slightly more homicides are committed with "other weapons" (other than firearms, knives and blunt objects) than are with knives (source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/weaponstab.htm). Accordingly, the American rate per capita of non-gun homicides is higher than the overall homicide rates of quite a lot of European countries. So even if you could prevent every homicide that occurs in the U.S. with a firearm by restricting availability of firearms, and no method substitution took place, Americans would still murder each other in higher numbers than Germans, Dutch, Danes, Norwegians, Irish and Swiss, so you can't blame the fact that the U.S. murder rate is comparatively high on guns alone. There's something else at work.

[divideandconquer]

15. Guns enhance crime, make it easier, more deadly and more costly to society

The ultimate bad behavior being rewarded is turning our society over to gun nuts. The guy in New Hampshire showing up outside the healthcare debate packing a gun speaks volumes about the rot set in motion against democracy by America's gun worshippers.

[jody]

7. Gun-grabbers want to disarm victims, gun-nuts want to disarm criminals. n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

12. Tons of restrictions on gun availability. Sorry you are very ignorant of the facts.

And I believe you mean gun crimes not gun tragedies.

[Tim01]

17. Thinking about penis again? You need another hobby. nt

[JonQ]

18. Only made it to the 2nd post before dicks were brought up

what is it with gun grabbers and their unhealthy obsession with male genitalia?

[proteus_lives]

19. No restrictions on gun availability?

What planet do you live on? You need to move past the typical foundation of fear and ignorance. Try facts, they help.

And I have to wonder from your post, would you have preferred that this man didn't have the means to defend himself?

[Euromutt]

21. Wrong, so very wrong

Really, try reading the news from other countries some time. It may surprise you, but gun crimes also occur in countries with stringent gun control laws. In Germany, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom, those who seek "to commit mayhem" somehow always manage to acquire firearms.

In September of last year, a drug dealer named Hans van Geenen was murdered when the car he was riding in on the A73 south of Nijmegen was fired on by the occupants of another vehicle. Police recovered dozens of spent casings along a stretch of several miles, indicating that the attackers used one or two automatic weapons. The incidence of hits on drug dealers (ordered by their competitors) is currently quite low, compared to some ten a year from 2000 to 2005.

In April 2007, persons unknown launched multiple explosive projectiles (probably rifle grenades) at "the Bunker," a special high-security courthouse in western Amsterdam, on the eve of the trial of Willem Holleeder (who was subsequently found guilty of extorting money from several real estate brokers, but was also implicated in at least 25 murders). The attack occurred at night, when there was nobody present in the building, and the most plausible hypothesis is that the shooters were associates of Holleeder who wanted to warn him against trying to make a deal by rolling on them.

In February 2007, Arkan Yildiz, a Turkish immigrant who operated a late-night convenience store in northern Amsterdam, was shot and killed by two armed robbers. He had been robbed at gunpoint several times before, and had applied for a firearms permit, but been turned down because self-defense is not considered a valid reason for owning a firearm under Dutch law.

In 2002, Pim Fortuyn, a populist politician whose party looked to do well in the upcoming general election, was shot and killed by an animal rights activist named Volkert van der Graaf; the first political assassination in the Netherlands since William the Silent was murdered in 1584. Van der Graaf bought the murder weapon--a Spanish-made 9mm Star Firestar M-43--off some guy in a bar in a provincial town. Admittedly, he did have to travel to a different town the next weekend to buy ammunition, off some other guy in some other bar.

Since the beginning of this year, there have been at least twenty incidents involving unlawful discharge of firearms in Amsterdam South-East. The most recent one resulted in the death of a 15 year-old boy when the vehicle he was in was fired upon. In response to speculation by the media that there is a gang war in progress, the regional police Amstelland have stated that there is not. This was intended to be reassuring, but when you think about it, the implication is that this level of violence is "business as usual," and that if there were a gang war in progress, the number of shootings would be significantly higher. Which is not reassuring at all.

In 2005, the annual report by the regional police Haaglanden stated that "our society can no longer be imagined without firearm violence; firearms are used with increasing frequency to threaten in muggings and robberies."

The pattern is fairly consistent with that in the UK, where incidence of violent crimes involving firearms more than doubled from 1997 to 2007, despite the implementation of a total ban on privately owned handguns following the Dunblane massacre. And of course Germany has seen several mass shootings (Erfurt, Emsdetten, Winnenden) over the past few years, despite the gun laws being the tightest they've been since 1928.

The fact is that the supply of gun to the criminal element is driven by demand, not vice-versa.

[SteveM]

24. Hmm. Penis-length discussion moves to no dick at all...

"For every 'success story' you post there are many more gun tragedies you don't dare post."

Do you have any proof for your assertion; I mean, wouldn't you be on firmer ground in posting these "tragedies" instead of merely speculating on them?

[slackmaster]

3. Sad story

It's unfortunate that those two young men made poor choices and threw their lives away.

[jody]

6. When attacked by a violent criminal and seconds count, police are just minutes or hours away.

Self-defense is a personal responsibility.

[spin]

10. K&R (n/t)

[divideandconquer]

16. With around 200 justifiable civilian homicides per year

I guess gun nuts need to celebrate every opportunity they get to kill someone, funny they don't mention all the wives killed by husbands with guns.

[Euromutt]

20. It's not the loss of life that we celebrate

It's the preservation of life and limb of the intended victim. Call me strange, but given the choice between a mugger being deprived of his life on the one hand, and an innocent citizen suffering harm to limb and possibly life, I'd rather see the mugger be the one hurt.

What we "gun nuts" also celebrate is the fact that there's yet another item of empirical evidence that the standard talking points of the gun control lobby are fabricated horseshit. In this case, it's the one about how having a defensive firearm won't do any good, because the nasty man will just take it away from you.

As for firearm homicides in domestic situations, well, that' why we have the Lautenberg Amendment to the Gun Control Act of 1968. That's the piece of legislation, FYI, that prohibits anyone with a misdemeanor conviction for an act of domestic violence from possessing a firearm. I acknowledge that a lot of gun owners (mostly right-wing ones) whine about that one, but I happen to think it's basically a good piece of legislation. It's also based on an empirical criterium, in that intimate partner killings practically never happen on the spur of the moment, but almost always form the culmination of an extended pattern of escalating violence, until the abusive partner finally kills the abused one, or--and don't think this doesn't happen--the abused partner kills the abuser. And given that the overwhelming majority of spousal abusers are male, and have the physical means to murder their spouses by means other than firearms, I'm willing to accept the risks if it means that abused partners can legally acquire a firearm with which to defend themselves.

[slackmaster]

23. The body count fallacy floats to the surface of the morass again

The flawed notions that the only proper use of a firearm is defense, and that the only proper defensive use of a firearm is to use it to kill someone.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

26. Who was celebrating?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

27. Just because some people think everyone is nice.