Can you forfeit natural rights?

[gorfle]

If you believe that man has Natural Rights, such as the right to life and liberty ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights ), the question arises can you forfeit such natural rights?

For example, if I walk down the street and begin depriving others of their right to life by shooting everyone I see, most would agree that it would be OK to kill me to stop me, thus depriving me of my own natural right to life.

How to we resolve this contradiction?

Can someone kill with impunity and then be untouchable by virtue of their own natural right to life? Or can I forfeit my natural right to life by violating others' right to life?

[Pyrzqxgl]

1. I'm more concerned with Natural Wrongs!

[phantom power]

2. There are no rights given to us by nature.

"rights" are a human construct. Various groups of humans agree on what "rights" they are going to enforce amongst each other. As history has shown, at no time, ever, do all humans agree with each other on what these rights really should be, or how they should be enforced. Even within these groups.

[gorfle]

3. So you believe...

So you believe you have no basic right to liberty? If your group of humans decided it was OK to enslave you this would be OK then?

I disagree. Slavery is inherently wrong. Why? Because we have a natural right to liberty.

[rrneck]

4. Every living organism

on this planet seeks to avoid death. I daresay those species that have evolved with a genetic propensity toward suicide won't be around long. We have a right to be what nature designed us to be. Part of that design includes the desire to stay alive, thus the right to life is an affirmation of our evolutionary design.

Humans have evolved with the neat trick (hat tip to Dan Dennett) of being able to remember the past and prognostigate about the future. We have also developed a theory of mind which allows us to imagine what others remember or plan to do. That skill has given us self determination and the liberty to select a course of action among any number of real or possible choices and how those choices may or may not relate to others. That makes liberty an inalienable right.

The rights to life and liberty can be forfeited if they conflict with the same rights held by others. Your rights stop at the other guys nose. That's why we have civilization, jurisprudence, history, punishment and reward. We have a very sophisticated system of reciprocity to manage our liberties.

The problem of self defense with a firearm (or any other weapon) is not one of life or liberty. It is a logistical problem. Our system of state provided defense cannot hope help us within the very narrow window of opportunity that occurs when an individual is ambushed by another individual intent on doing them harm.

edit: damn browser crashed in mid post