Bullets. Shot from guns. Are what killed Byrd and Melanie Billings of Pensacola.

[sharesunited]

So.

Guns emboldened the criminals to commit the crime and guns caused the deaths of the Billingses.

Has anyone posting to this board asserted that the tragedy could have been avoided if each developmentally disabled child in that household had been properly armed and received firearms training?

Just wondered if that argument has appeared on DU yet, or if those posts are just waiting in the wings and may begin now?

[armyowalgreens]

1. If you don't mind me asking, what the hell are you talking about?

I know the story. That's not what I'm wondering about.

[vadawg]

3. im fucking clueless as to his point also

:shrug:

[armyowalgreens]

I think I might know.But I don't want to believe that the OP is that insensitive and exploitive.

edited

[sharesunited]

4. Lift your head up out of the sand.

The availability of guns and ammunition in American society has resulted in the deaths of two manifestly good people.

And the usual response that more guns are the answer looks particularly absurd here because of the disabilities of the other members of the household.

This story is a shining example of how American gun worship needs to be called out, and I am doing that right here and now.

[armyowalgreens]

5. What you are doing right here and now is making an ass of yourself.

[Xicano]

14. n/t

[vadawg]

16. feckin A

better to on the phone to the popo with a gun pointed at the bedroom door, than hiding in a closet with the phone waiting for the popo to arrive.

[Xicano]

22. I am actually someone who's still alive today because of owning a gun

A few years back I unfortunately was a victim of two individuals who were breaking into my house while I was home. One was armed with a knife and the other gun stuck in the waist part of his pants.

Yeah, I was on the phone with 911, but, the cops would have not made it in time to save my life if I hadn't been armed and waiting for them to come through the back door they were breaking in through.

Luckily, I did not have to fire at them because the moment they got the door opened and took the first step into my house, they me already pointing at them and shouting at them. They instantly turned and ran, and I mean they ran fast.

Needless to say I couldn't bring myself to feel comfortable in that house anymore and moved to where I live today - across town.

I wish people would realize that prohibitions never work. They only create black markets and restrict honest and responsible people access to something that's not criminal.



Peace,
Xicano

[armyowalgreens]

24. What are you talking about? Drugs, alcohol...both successful prohibitions.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[sharesunited]

25. Kiddie porn. Still exists, but in a zero tolerance atmosphere.

All it takes is the political and prosecutorial will to say Enough!

[TexasObserver]

26. You'd be trying to outlaw CAMERAS and FILM and PHOTO DISKS

There's nothing illegal or immoral about owning or shooting a gun. Under your ridiculous kiddie porn analogy, you'd be trying to outlaw CAMERAS and FILM and PHOTO DISKS. See how utterly ridiculous your analogy is?

Yours is a vile, illogical attempt to smear the conversation. You lose what little credibility you have when you try to drag that into the discussion.

[sharesunited]

29. The prohibition against child pornography doesn't care whether you created it.

It presumes that an unacceptable societal harm results from its very existence.

I think the analogy is an apt and compelling one.

Since pornography does not kill, you tell me which product is more harmful.

[armyowalgreens]

30. No, it's still a poor analogy.

A gun by itself is just a tool. It can be used to protect or destroy.

Child porn by itself is still the sexual exploitation of a minor. It cannot be used in a "good way".

[TexasObserver]

31. FAIL because you'd be outlawing CAMERAS under your porn analogy.

Under your analogy, you'd be outlawing film and video, since, like guns and bullets, they become the instrument of criminal activity when used improperly.

[sharesunited]

32. No, it's more in the nature of banning dynamite in the hands of J6P.

Something inherently dangerous to life and limb. Such a ban makes no distinction whether responsible users are theoretically possible.

[TexasObserver]

33. Why do you persist in starting the same thread over and over, in the wrong forum?

There's a Guns forum. You know, because you have threads shipped there.

[sharesunited]

34. The time it is allowed to remain in General Discussion does the most good.

If a mod or admin wants to exile it to the guns forum, that's guilt they take upon themselves.

[TexasObserver]

36. "If a mod or admin wants to exile it to the guns forum, that's guilt they take upon themselves."

I quoted you because I thought everyone should see that statement.

[Xicano]

28. What about these..

One of the most secure places against contraband is inside prisons, but, many convicts say access to contraband is just as easy. Or if you're a religious person here's a good one for you. The first prohibition was against eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge and guess who was the authority and enforcer behind that prohibition? The big Kahuna himself. So not even GAWD himself is successful at prohibitions.

:hi:

[iverglas]

107. it always makes me sad

to think of all those people addicted to firearms.

And all those pushers and organized crime networks, doing their best to get 'em hooked on guns.

I mean, they must be. Otherwise, why would people like you keep dragging drugs and alcohol into the conversation?


typo fixed

[armyowalgreens]

122. There is not a massive wave of organized crime surrounding illegal gun trade...

because guns are not illegal.

I bring it up because it represents the "failure" of prohibitions.

Your stupidity is literally burning a hole through my face.


Also, I find it funny that you mock "gun addiction" when you are always the one talking about militant gun nuts. I guess you change your stance based on the argument you are in. Reaaaal classy.

[iverglas]

126. 'I bring it up because it represents the "failure" of prohibitions.'

Uh huh.

How's that "failed" prohibition on the possession of, oh, anthrax doing? Nuclear weaponry? How 'bout slaves?

The hole in your face will be a good match for the one that evidently already exists in your skull. You need to install one of those cat-flap things, to filter what gets in.



Also, I find it funny that you mock "gun addiction" when you are always the one talking about militant gun nuts. I guess you change your stance based on the argument you are in. Reaaaal classy.

"Militant gun nuts"? I'll have to google that one. I don't think I'll find it near my name.

I've never suggested that gun militants are addicted to anything. What might you think your point is?

[X_Digger]

127. Really? You're comparing anthrax & nukes to pistols?

As if nukes and anthrax were as common as guns, alcohol, or drugs- or that creating a nuke or anthrax from scratch is as easy as a gun or alcohol?

It's easy to ban something rare. Something common? Not so much.

Re: Slavery- it took a civil war, 600,000 casualties and 40'ish years (from the first popular abolitionist writings to post-reconstruction) and the effects and repercussions of slavery are being argued to this day (Sotomayor's nomination and her stance on affirmative action.)

[iverglas]

128. fascinating

My pretend analogies fail because of the dissimilarities between the various items ... but an analogy that likens drugs & alcohol to firearms, when they have virtually FUCK ALL in common, in any respect, well that one's just dandy.

Damn some people are obvious in their total lack of concern and regard for intellectual honesty and their single-minded devotion to the agenda.

[Katya Mullethov]

132. and

Drugs are not booze are not firearms . But prohibition is prohibition no matter how you cut it with yer hatchet . Damned bloody profitable .

[pnwmom]

74. I'm curious why you didn't run out the front door, rather than wait at

the back door for them?

[iverglas]

97. I always have the same question

It usually seems to have something to do with self-esteem ... problems ...


edit - also, it seems to me, some thinking problems.

There simply is no guarantee that the individuals breaking in one's back door aren't also going to have a gun aimed and ready. If both of them do, well.

Choosing to "stand yer ground" in the face of evidently violent individuals breaking into one's home amounts to believing that one's gun is a magic talisman, it seems to me.

[Xicano]

106. Simple

Because how was I suppose to know if there wasn't another one or more of them? In that kind of situation the best thing to do is take up a defensive position with your back to the wall and let them come to you. The worst thing to do is to move about and risk getting jumped by another one you didn't see.

[E-Mag]

137. This is a reason that fleeing is not always the best choice.

Cape Girardeau police had been keeping a close eye on the woman's home, in the southwest part of Cape Girardeau, since she reported the rape nearly a week ago.

In that instance, she'd heard the glass break in a basement window around midnight on Saturday, and decided to make a run for it through her front door, according to police reports of the incident. When she opened the door, Preyer attacked her.

He punched her in the face and forced her into the bedroom, where he raped her.

Hmm she tried to flee but the attacker met her at the door.

When he came back a few days later he did not have the same luck though I guess her magic magic talisman worked that night.

http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/rape.html

[AndyA]

75. For every story like yours, there are stories of those killed by people who shouldn't have had guns.

The current laws don't work.

The way it is now, the right to bear arms apparently has precedence over the right to live. And once dead, there's no coming back. There's something very wrong with that theory.

[armyowalgreens]

79. You are arguing that there is a net-negative outcome..

IE more people die from gun violence than are saved. I don't know that that is true or not. I'd be interested to look at some stats.


So your solution is to ban all guns? Does that include the police? If not, why are the police more deserving than citizens? CCW permit holders have a lower rate of abuse than police officers. So if you think the police should be able to handle firearms, why not CCW permit holders?

[AndyA]

80. Thanks for attributing a lot of statements to me that I didn't make.

I said the current laws don't work. They need to be changed. Obviously, there are a LOT of people with guns that shouldn't have them.

I don't really care about the statistics. One life lost is too many. And people cannot possibly begin to understand that until they, personally, have seen a loved one lying dead in a pool of their own blood, shot by someone who never should have been permitted to have a gun but did.

[armyowalgreens]

82. "I don't really care about the statistics. One life lost is too many."

Does that go for every industry?

Cars
Alcohol
Tobacco
Aircraft
etc.

Your position is fairly unscientific.


What laws aren't working? And what are laws that you would like to see implemented?



My solution is that we make it mandatory that all gun owners receive formal training and certification.

[SteveM]

89. You darn well better "care about statistics." That's the basis for sound public policy...

and not a book full of junk laws based on anecdote.

[iverglas]

98. and you're pretending

Yes, the post you replied to referred to deaths.

No, deaths are not the only negative outcome associated with widespread access to firearms. Not by a long chalk.

There are injuries, and the personal and social costs associated with them. (Ever looked up the average monetary cost for health care, whether paid privately, by private insurance, or by the public, of a gunshot injury?)

There is the insecurity felt by everyone living in a community afflicted by high rates of firearms violence -- creating a downward spiral of economic underdevelopment, which both leads to high crime rates and results from high crime rates.

One could go on and on.



So your solution is to ban all guns?

Ah. So your solution is to issue pistols to schoolchildren?


If not, why are the police more deserving than citizens?

Gawd, this moronic mantra gets boring.

[SteveM]

88. It's YOUR theory. That' why it is wrong (nt)

[Xicano]

23. Dup

.

[tkmorris]

46. The "popo"?

You know what you sound like when you talk like that don't you?

[Hoopla Phil]

101. A picture IS worth a thousand words. Very good point. n/t

[havocmom]

69. how come we never see you 'call out' American CAR worship?

More people killed by cars here STILL. And STILL no outcry to ban them.

Always seems curious.

[TexasObserver]

73. Yes, plus cigarettes, booze, prescription drugs - all bigger killers.

[iverglas]

99. yeah, curious indeed

Given all the people who die when someone pulls a car on them and fires it, every day ...

[gorfle]

90. The way I read the story...

The way I read the story is that some eight people raided these folks' home full of developmentally-challenged kids and the two parents.

With 8 people breaking in in unison, they could have been armed with paper weights and done the same thing.

[imdjh]

124. blather nt

[stuball111]

2. Wrong

Bullets and guns in themselves are just inanimate objects. It was people who killed them, whether they used a gun or a club. And you start giving guns to kids, with or without proper training and it's a recipe for tradgedy. We'd be reading headlines like" Stupid parents give kids guns, Kids shoot each other and parents" Give your head a shake man!

[TexasObserver]

6. So, what you're saying is that bullets in guns can kill people?

Thanks.

Anything else?

[vadawg]

7. crap, i always thought the bullets in my gun were ceremonial

now im going to have to be real careful when i practice my fast draw.

[sharesunited]

8. Yes, one more thing. They are easily obtainable.

Because of America's love affair with them.

[vadawg]

9. good, i hate having to go to more than one store for my ammo

nothing worse than having to traipse to the big city to get ammo from the street corner guy, much easier to hit walmart...

[sharesunited]

10. OK I have you down for gunshot deaths are acceptable.

Because the most important thing of all is convenience in killing power and death dealing.

[vadawg]

12. yup put me down for that, and also for people being able to defend themselves

oh and the 2nd amendment, and anything else you want, you want to believe that if you give up your weapons the bad guys will give them up, then you are nuts, and as a professional i prefer to have armed law abiding civilians interacting with me on a daily basis.

[Xicano]

17. n/t

[armyowalgreens]

11. Why is having them easily obtainable for legal purchase a bad thing?

[TexasObserver]

13. You obviously haven't tried to buy ammo recently, if you think that.

Please continue, however.

[sharesunited]

15. That's only because supply cannot keep up with demand.

Rest assured, more supply continues to be produced to feed this despicable appetite.

[TexasObserver]

18. So you admit they're not "easily obtainable" as you alleged?

Bullets, that is.

[sharesunited]

21. A temporary shortage not from a change in public policy.

I favor a permanent ban on retail distribution.

[Statistical]

84. Have fun with that.

[JonQ]

133. Damn americans and their love affairs with basic rights

for shame. We should trade them all in to anyone who promises us a little increased security.

I think Franklin had a quote advocating something along those lines.

[armyowalgreens]

19. LOL I think the OP has me on his ignore list...

Because of this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=236217&mesg_id=236247

[vadawg]

20. lol dont worry i think i have you on my ignore list also

though i cnat remember why...... :shrug:

[armyowalgreens]

27. Neither can I. It must not have been that important.

[geckosfeet]

35. It' is the criminal activity around guns that should be at issue.

Selling and possessing guns illegally should be treated much more seriously than it is in most states.

The people who did the shooting probably used guns obtained illegally and they probably were not licensed to carry or own guns.

[sharesunited]

38. That's the "when good guns go bad" argument.

Guns and ammo manufactured for a so-called lawful purpose just add to the presence and prevalence of these products throughout the national commerce, including black market.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

120. Absolutely agree.

[sam sarrha]

37. I'm keep'n my gun to protect Jesus when he returns, from the Crack heads down the street, you might

ask why there are so many criminals that use those guns..hy is our country rotting from the inside out??

[sharesunited]

40. I don't need to ask why. I know why.

Those guns were produced by a company which wanted to make a profit by making and selling them.

They were introduced into the national commerce at the sufferance of the American People, because somebody thinks easy access to guns is a good thing, regardless of whose hands they ultimately fall into.

[Optical.Catalyst]

39. IBTL

[TexasObserver]

41. If only there was a forum at DU specifically for threads about GUNS!

[armyowalgreens]

42. I think the OP knows that intelligent gun owners post there...

and that is the last demographic the OP wants to get involved with.

[sharesunited]

45. The intelligence of gun owners doesn't matter to the Billingses.

They are dead because the means of convenient death dealing were available to be obtained.

[armyowalgreens]

47. No, they are dead because someone wanted to kill them.

But you keep on believing that they are dead because of the "convenience" of purchasing a firearm.

[TexasObserver]

48. So, if they killed them with baseball bats, you'd want to shut down Major League Baseball?

[sharesunited]

52. Do you like your chances better against bats or bullets?

Why do you suppose the crime was committed with guns instead of sporting equipment?

[TexasObserver]

55. You refuse to answer the question because you know it proves your approach invalid.

You want to outlaw cameras because they're used in kiddie porn.

You want to outlaw baseball bats because they can be used to beat up or kill.

You blame the instruments of crime instead of blaming those who misuse such instruments. Knives, guns, baseball bats, autos, cameras, and even dogs can be used to commit crimes, but all are used most often legally.

[greguganus]

43. Novel idea!! n/t

[bread_and_roses]

44. "“It is easier to buy a gun than get liquor from a liquor store.”"

http://www.alternet.org/workplace/141275/we_offer_riches_and_perks_for_corrupt_cronies%2C_and_crumbs_for_everyone_else/

he lives in a world that is falling apart. The gangs on the streets of Trenton carry Glock 9-millimeter pistols and AK-47 assault rifles. When the Trenton police stop a car or raid a house filled with suspected gang members, they approach with loaded M-16s...

“There are thousands more guns out there than when I was on the street,” Brown says. “It is easier to buy a gun than get liquor from a liquor store.”


He says he rarely goes out at night, even to the corner store. It is too dangerous.


The desperation is palpable. People don’t know where to turn. Benefits are running out. More and more people are out of work.

yeah, all those guns are making people sooooooooooo much safer.

Brave OP, but, you know, it is pointless to talk to the opposition. Who knows what world they live in? Not the one these people do, that's for sure.

[armyowalgreens]

50. DC has had one of the highest murder rates in the US for decades...

And they banned firearms in DC in 1975.

Explain that one...

[sharesunited]

53. I can explain it in one word.

Virginia.

[armyowalgreens]

54. So you agree that a ban will only lead to smuggling...

Which means that the bad guys get guns, while the good guys get theirs confiscated.

[sharesunited]

58. I agree that national policy is required.

Because gun love is worse in some states than in others.

[armyowalgreens]

60. Oh okay. So you simply refuse to admit that guns will be smuggled into the US...

Just like the shit-loads of drugs that already sneak past our border.

[SteveM]

91. Clearly, he has never been to Miami where smuggling is industry (nt)

[proteus_lives]

109. What does that mean?

"Virginia"

Are you so simple?

[virginia mountainman]

125. OK, than why isn't all those guns suposadaly...

Coming from Virginia, causing problems, like DC's IN, Virginia??

[slackmaster]

138. It's not politically correct to articulate the fact that DC is filled with crooks and liars

:hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. Poverty

[armyowalgreens]

72. NO NO NO...THEY LOVE GUNS AND DEATH...

Poverty? What the fuck is poverty? Sounds like a left-wing conspiracy to me.
:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[sharesunited]

51. Thanks! It's important to keep stating the problem.

And to make those who are part of the problem insist they are correct.

It is entirely insufficient to hear them cluck Such A Tragedy, Now Carry On Dying.

[SteveM]

92. You have the stringent moral bent of a true believer. Not good (nt)

[Katya Mullethov]

117. Indeed----> "Gangs armed with " nt

The implements change , but the constant and reoccurring theme is man in his natural state . Every day , they are out there reminding the milquetoasts where meat comes from . My dogs eat a cat or a rabbit every once in a while and it's nothing personal , just business .

[Fla_Democrat]

78. It's easier to buy crack

It's easier to buy crack, than get liquor from a liquor store. Just drive into the right area, and the helpful sales people will come right up to your window. You don't even need to find a parking space close to the door.

It's easier to buy a stolen T.V. from Jimmy the Meth-head than get liquor from a liquor store. It's even cheaper than retail, and you don't have all the cardboard and wrappings to put in the recycling bin.

It's easier to get a 'gummer' from toothless Sally at the corner than get liquor from a liquor store. Not quite as sanitary, though she does use alcohol between sessions. Mostly a bottle of gin she keep in her bag.

I notice the comparison wasn't between buying a gun at a dealer, and getting liquor from a liquor store. Funny how illegal activity seems to be easier than legal activity.

What world do I live in? I live in a world where bad people do bad things. I live in a world, where the closest law enforcement center is 20 min away. Unless there is a county patrol car in this specific neck of the woods, I live in a world of trouble, pain and misery if one of the bad people decide to visit those bad things on myself or my family. I live in a world that has personally been touched by violence and I swear I will never be defenseless.

[slackmaster]

96. So in spite of gun control there is a thriving black market in illegal weapons

What do you propose to do about it? More laws?

:rofl:

[elocs]

49. Threads specifically concerning guns properly belong in the Guns Forum. n.t

[sharesunited]

56. Prominent murder of a good and generous couple transcends that forum.

Posting it to guns just sweeps the issue under the rug.

[elocs]

57. The thread is specifically about guns as they relate to the murders, not the murders. n/t

[TexasObserver]

59. You're not talking about the couple or the crime, but the GUNS used in it.

You've already admitted you start these frauds in GD knowing they belong in the Guns forum. You figure you'd rather post a while in GD early, before Mods get active, and it will get moved later.

You don't expect to change anyone's mind. You just like to whine about your pet peeve.

[sharesunited]

61. Did the Billingses whine when the bullets entered their bodies?

Or did they die quickly and quietly because the technology was so good?

[armyowalgreens]

62. You don't seem to actually give a damn about them...

You do, however, seem to love exploiting their death.

[sharesunited]

64. I am outraged at their death, and at the climate of indifference to the cause.

Such A Tragedy, Now Carry On Dying.

[slackmaster]

100. You're trying to blame the tools used for the crime rather than the mental state of the murderers

And you haven't offered anything that resembles a solution to what you believe to be the problem.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

121. That's just laughable. You couldn't care less about them and their kids.

[TexasObserver]

63. You're still afraid to answer the questions.

[The Straight Story]

65. The developmentally disabled here blame guns for possessing humans like demons

supposedly used to be to blame for the actions of others.

Always blame something else and not the individual.

"The devil made me do it" still runs rampant in this century.

[RC]

66. No one ever really addressed the OP's question.

It is a good one. If more guns are the answer, surly one of more of the kids should have had the capability to safely handle a gun, correct. This question shows up the hypocrisy of the more guns are the answer crowd.

And as for the ammo shortage, there is a shortage because we (US of A) and a lot of others are using the ammo up killing any and everybody in wars, skirmishes and genocides world wide. No one addressed that either.

Guns were invented and designed as killing machines. That is the reason for their existence.

[armyowalgreens]

67. I don't believe any one here is demanding that mentally handicapped

be allowed to own firearms. That's a ridiculous assumption to make about us.

As for the ammo shortage, military grade ammunition is not the same as civilian grade ammunition. So to argue that they are one in the same is ignorant. So no, the reason for the ammo shortage is not because of the war. Jesus, get a clue.


Guns were invented for a number of reasons. Protection, hunting and attack.

[RC]

113. I never said they were one and the same.

But the same companies make both using the same basic equipment. The ammo companies in the country are having trouble keeping up ammo production for our wars, let alone enough for the guns in this country also.

[armyowalgreens]

123. I'd like a link please.

Pretty please with a cherry on top.

[Statistical]

85. Got Straw?

Nobody says more guns is correct answer in every situation. That would be a strawman argument. Are the only arguments you can win the ones you (and the OP) setup.

Nobody says arming handicap children is the answer. Once again that is a strawman.

[RC]

114. Then why are there so many right here saying if so & so were armed it would not have happened.

Except for this peculator incident, that is. Not enough adults and too many handycapped kids in this case.

Or if everyone was CC (meaning more guns in the population), the bad guys would be more hesitant to do their bad stuff. I read stuff like this right here on DU quite often.

"Nobody says more guns is correct answer in every situation." is your straw man. But you know as well as I there are people that think guns are the answer to way too many scenarios. I read that all the time right here on DU also.

[eqfan592]

115. Deleted by user

[Chemisse]

68. Are you kidding me? Arming the children with guns?

If you give your children guns, (and the guns would have to be readily available and loaded to do any good in a situation like this) the changes are MUCH more likely they will shoot themselves or others - probably accidentally - than they will EVER be faced with the need to defend themselves.

Having your parents murdered is not an everyday event. Nearly all children in this country go through their whole childhoods without needing to violently defend themselves. Giving a child ready access to a gun has a far higher probability of ending in a tragedy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. Arm the kids!

LOL

Good one.

[saigon68]

76. Nice FLAME thread

Yikes

[AndyA]

77. Here's the real problem with today's gun laws. It's all about trust.

You have to trust everyone with a gun to do the right thing. You don't know them, they are strangers. But you have to trust them.

Would you trust these same people to go off with your young daughter? You don't know who they are, where they live, what they've just been through, or anything else about them. You just have to trust that they are responsible and will do the right thing. Would you trust them to take your child away for an hour?

Most would not, yet it's OK for that person to walk around carrying a gun that could kill you in an instant. In many cases, before you'd even have the chance to react if you had a gun.

Today's gun laws don't work, and there are thousands of dead people to prove it. Carrying a gun in today's society is more important than the right to live. :shrug: :(

[Statistical]

81. So make them illegal like drugs or murder. n/t

[slackmaster]

104. Like all other laws, gun laws work just fine as long as people obey them

People who don't obey the laws we have now aren't going to obey ANY laws.

[MicaelS]

83. So you COMPLETELY trust

Law enforcement and military, correct? I mean you must, given the high level of support for both here on DU. :sarcasm: Since they would be the only ones to have guns if you got what you wanted. And if you think government is going to disarm law enforcement and military, you're living in a fantasy world.

[Israfel4]

86. There are something like 300 million firearms in the U.S.

why aren't there more gun related deaths???

[aikoaiko]

87. It looks like this couple being killed may have been the prime motive

and therefore whether guns are more or less available would have had little effect on the tragic outcome.

[Deadric Damodred]

93. Collateral Damage is acceptable.

Having the right to bear arms means that people have the ability to defend themselves from the evil people in this world, but it also means that a certain percentage of tragedies will happen as a direct result of people owning firearms. Some of those tragedies will be from guns being left in the open for children to find, from guns being left in the open to be stolen, some guns will be willingling given to criminals, and some of those guns will be used by their law-abiding owners who suddenly go insane. It happens. Shit happens. And it's acceptable. Considering the greater good is that the populace as a whole keep their 2nd Amendment rights, a certain amount of innocent dead people is acceptable; we aren't going to disarm everyone just because some kid dies.

Also, if you don't like 100 million American's owning firearms, good luck trying to disarm them. When you can think of a way to force 100 million gun owners to give up their guns, get back to me; otherwise we're keeping our guns whether you like it or not.

[rrneck]

103. I don't consider it acceptable.

Just unavoidable.

You're right that any technology that is as potentially dangerous as a firearm will inevitably hurt the wrong people, but to say that it is acceptable is to remove the incentive to keep it from happening.

The wrong people will always get hurt, but that should never keep us from trying to avoid that eventuality.

[iverglas]

105. aaaaw

Let me get you a hankie.


The wrong people will always get hurt, but that should never keep us from trying to avoid that eventuality.

Might I add: if you're so concerned about it, what might you be doing about it?

[eqfan592]

108. I do see your point...

...the problem is exactly how we go about avoiding that eventuality. The OP seems to be of the mindset that the only way to avoid it is a ban of some sort, though I don't think he's come out and stated this directly.

I believe the OP, and those that agree with him, have a difficult time dealing with living in a free society. Having a free society entails a level of risk. And as much as you try to limit this risk, some risk is unavoidable. Segments of any society will always try to abuse the freedoms that society enjoys. It's just the cold, hard, reality of the situation. What’s funny to me is that these same people often recognize this fact when talking about things like the Patriot Act, but fail to see the parallels when dealing with the 2nd Amendment.

It’s time people accept that you can’t have it both ways.

[rrneck]

94. If you're so concerned about it

why weren't you there to save them?

[slackmaster]

95. They were killed by crazed Ninjas, who can kill just as easily with their bare hands

Guns are not the issue.

Guns emboldened the criminals to commit the crime and guns caused the deaths of the Billingses.

That's a rather bold supposition. I find myself quite unable to get inside the minds of violent criminals. Are you a real mind-reader, or do you just pretend to be one on the Internet?

[cslinger59]

102. Is this about the couple who were killed by the "ninjas"?

If so has there been any more insight as to the who, what, why?

If it wasn't for the tragedy of the whole situation it would almost be comical with the whole band of folks dressed as ninjas. I don't say that to be insensitive only to point out the absurdity of the whole thing.

Anyway has there been any more info released?

Thanks
Chris

[proteus_lives]

110. How about we blame the criminal scum that killed them?

Tragedy is not an excuse to destroy our rights.

Your flamebait sputters out.

[jody]

111. You do know that a "developmentally disabled child" cannot legally possess a firearm on two counts.

First as a child and second as developmentally disabled if that fact has been determined by courts.

Perhaps you are just trying to find answers to questions that flutter through your mind caused by lack of knowledge about federal and Alabama laws affecting the right to keep and bear arms for self-defense.

A right enumerated in our Constitution and as SCOTUS said in United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, 553 (1876), “{t}his is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The Second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed . . . .”

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

112. Never miss an opportunity to turn someone's tragedy into your personal political soapbox.

[jeepnstein]

116. "It's a poor workman who blames the tools."

[friendly_iconoclast]

118. Guns are as much your obsession as President Obama's birth certificate is at FR

Frankly, I don't think you really give a rat's ass about the victims, save for the fact that they were shot and so
allow you to decry guns.

I can only apply the Bunker test to you:

"Would you feel better if they was pushed out of a window?"


That, and claiming to 'know' what motivated the Billings' killers *really* doesn't speak well of you at all.

[eqfan592]

119. BIG +1!!!

:toast: :applause:

[iverglas]

129. please elaborate

Frankly, I don't think you really give a rat's ass about the victims, save for the fact that they were shot and so allow you to decry guns.

Why? What's the motivation for this gun-decrying?

You must know.

[friendly_iconoclast]

130. Since the OP claimed to know what motivated the crime at the Billings'-

-

Guns emboldened the criminals to commit the crime

-

he is either privy to information not yet disclosed to the public or is talking out of his ass.

Or spreading a "faith-promoting rumour", as it is known in certain religious circles.

He has spent very little time discussing the Billings, and much more time the method used in their murder.

No discussion of how refreshing it was that the Billings used their money to provide a good home for
special-needs kids instead of buying toys for themselves.

No worries about how the surviving family members will cope, or what help they will need after such an awful
crime.

Hell, he didn't even wonder "WTF motivates someone to do something like this?"

Instead, we get "The devil, err, the guns made them do it!"

And, as someone else pointed out, seven violent home invaders could have achieved the same results with paperweights
or pretty much else anything at hand

[iverglas]

131. you got some funny dictionaries, eh?

the OP claimed to know what motivated the crime at the Billings'-
Guns emboldened the criminals to commit the crime


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/embolden

embolden
To foster boldness or courage in; encourage. See Synonyms at encourage.

embolden - give encouragement to
cheer, hearten, recreate
buck up, take heart - gain courage
encourage - inspire with confidence; give hope or courage to

embolden
verb encourage, cheer, stir, strengthen, nerve, stimulate, reassure, fire, animate, rouse, inflame, hearten, invigorate, gee up, make brave, give courage, vitalize, inspirit

Let's use them in a sentence.

You could embolden me to jump off a bridge all you wanted, but if I weren't motivated to do it, I wouldn't.


he is either privy to information not yet disclosed to the public or is talking out of his ass.

I think he was drawing an inference from the facts. It was the individuals in question, and no one else, who spent all that time playing with guns in preparation for the event. The guns and gunplay obviously, at least to their minds, played some role in it. What do you imagine?


No discussion of how refreshing it was that the Billings used their money to provide a good home for special-needs kids instead of buying toys for themselves.

No worries about how the surviving family members will cope, or what help they will need after such an awful crime.

Yes, yes, because EVERYBODY who posts tales of crime and vigilantishment in this forum ALWAYS spends a little time wringing their hands comme ça. Always.

Was this post about the deeds of the victims or the fate of their family?

I didn't think so. What would make you think that? Or pretend to think it should have been. Whatever.


Hell, he didn't even wonder "WTF motivates someone to do something like this?"

Huh! Is this the "Motivation for Crime" forum??


Instead, we get "The devil, err, the guns made them do it!"

Damn. I seem to have been in the bathroom when that was handed out. I missed out. Can you find me some?


And, as someone else pointed out, seven violent home invaders could have achieved the same results with paperweights or pretty much else anything at hand

And yet ... and yet ... they didn't ...

[Deadric Damodred]

134. "Bullets. Shot from guns."

Is that just a way to word it to sound even more scary or something? Kind of like "assault weapon" wasn't enough, so they started saying "deadly assault weapon" as a way to stir up shit? "Bullets. Shot from guns"......well fucking duh, the purpose of a bullet is to be shot from a gun. If you really wanted to stir up the fear, you should have worded it like so: BULLETS!!!! BULLETS SHOT FROM GUNS!!! There were BULLETS SHOT from GUNS!!! That's what killed them....it was BULLETS shot from GUNS!!!

[X_Digger]

135. Much better than..

"Bullets. Thrown from across the room"

or

"Bullets. Dropped from a great height."

[guardian]

136. Maybe you'd prefer they'd been hacked to death with machetes?

Do you think this middle aged man and woman would have fared any better against 8 home invading men, intent on killing them, if the invaders had been armed with

* knives?
* ice picks?
* machetes?
* baseball bats?
* shovels?
* rocks?

People with the OP's viewpoint need to stop living in Never-Never-Land and start living in the real world.