Woke up this morning, to a Red Sky on the horizon......

[virginia mountainman]

When I joined DU, several year ago, I was gravely concerned about the future of our party. We had just lost another election and our party was in disarray. John Kerry had just lost the election, but it seemed that "the higher ups" in our party had finally got the message on one issue that that had been a major boat anchor that had been hanging around our neck. And that message was Gun Control, is amazingly unpopular in most of the nation.

I would have thought, after 1994, this would have been a given, but alas, it took almost 15 years for that lesson to sink in to "those that create our policy stances". It was refreshing to hear in the last election about gun RIGHTS, instead of gun CONTROL. Obama's continued reassurance to gun owners that he would PROTECT our right to own guns, did not fall on deaf ears.

Remember this mailer?





It was damn effective.... People where so fed up with Bushco, and McCain's past screw ups with civil rights(McCain was/is damn unpopular among gun owners, of all political stripes) Even with Obama's past record most gun owners was willing to give him a pass on it.

After going for several years without much more than a few very minor "dust ups" coming from the usual sources (Feinstein , McCarthy, and the usual screed from Republican thugs like Sara Brady, Mike Bloomberg, and Paul Hemike)

Their started to be a steady drum beat of "feelers" about an Assault Weapon Ban, on the news...First, it was comments by Eric Holder, than a few days later, it was HRC..... It even culminated in a letter SIGNED BY SEVERAL DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMEN THAT "GET IT" warning the administration, not to even THINK ABOUT IT...

Then their was talk from the top, defusing the situation.....But that did not last long, Feinstien was on 20/20 again.. , telling America,{much like she did in 1995, Mr and Mrs America turn them all in} except now, SHE, would pick the time and place, and the time now, was not right....

Uhhh huh.... Message to Feinstien, it will NEVER be right....

Now, we have several, newly minted and incredibly poorly thought out gun laws, trying to make their way thru the pipe, from the same sources as before, {at least from the few anti-civil rights battle axes that are left}

Lets Review a few facts...

1. Congress, is much more pro-gun now, than in the past heady days of Gun Control in the early 1990's It was a hard fought issue then, this time, their will be a very different outcome, with the decisively bi-partisan pro gun congress.

2. Senate, while not as solidly pro gun as the Congress, the pro gun side, does have a majority here.

3. The American public, is pro gun, matter of fact, the American Public, is TRENDING more progun as time goes along as shown in a recent Gallup poll.



4. The NRA, and the many other pro gun groups are highly organized, well funded, with highly motivated and effective support from the general public, much to the chagrin of those that wax on about protecting our civil rights, with the exception of the 2nd Amendment. In the ealry 1990's the NRA was weak, and torn by internal divisions, and even then the AW Ban, only passed by one vote, only after much arm twisting.Today, the NRA is many orders of magnitude stronger, than it was, while the gun control groups cannot even muster the funds to have more than a token staff in the home office.

1994, breathed new life into the gun rights movement, and ever since, they have dominated... Just take a look at the proliferation of CCW laws to see proof of this power...



5. One of the effects of the "push for gun control" was undeniable gun owner backlash, starting in the mid 1990's in the states, this is still happening. in much of the US, Gun restrictions are getting looser, slowly, every election cycle, THEY ARE NOT GETTING TIGHTER.... Here in Virginia, with that vile Republican Mike Bloomberg, still down here, running TV ads, wanting to close the non existent gun show loophole, we managed to get several pieces of Pro Gun legislation to the governors desk, while the anti-civil rights side, failed to get ANY of their legislation out of committee. and recently Kansas, decriminalized Machine Guns, and their was a nearly successful effort to have CCW in Illinois!

6. Most of us, have been trying to convince the electorate, that Democrats do NOT, want to take their guns, we have been successful, don't prove us wrong, being locked out of the congress since 1994 has had far reaching consequences.. Just think, if the Assault Weapon ban, had not happened, we would not have pissed off legions of voters, and would not have been handed such a total defeat in the congress. Where would we be on many of our other pet issues, like Health Care, and Taxes? Had not the Rethugs taken control of the House and Senate, in 1994, we would be in a very different situation today. This is even more important when the fact, that AL Gore, lost the election largely on the basis of his support of gun control, he even lost his home state of Tennessee.

It is easy to see how the effects of 1994, gave us GWB

7. If ANY of this proposed legislation, even gets to the floor for a discussion, it will be all out war, be it a NEW AW ban, So called Gun show Loophole legislation, or other incredibly poorly thought out peaces of legislation that are being discussed in the backrooms.

You can bet your ass, that if it does, NOTHING ELSE will be discussed but this, it WILL be on the news, Caroline McCarthy will be trotted out, to make stupid statements, and generally look like an ass, Feinstein will be on the news programs talking about "turning them all in" and about the "time being right" etc, etc... It will cause so many phone calls to the legislators, that it is likely to melt phone lines, and these calls will be promising to "oust" anyone who even THINKS of voting for it. Not to mention hundreds of voters, showing up at congressional offices around the nation. All of them asking "WTF?!?!"

The NRA, and groups like it, have a long SUCCESSFUL history, of doing just that. These are not empty threats. Look at how fast the NRA was able to completely dominate the "gun maker" protection bill a few years ago. And since then, their have been a few more PRO GUN congressmen, and a couple of Pro Gun senators have been elected.

8. ANY SERIOUS attempt to pass, any gun control legislation, will have far reaching consequences, even if it falls flat, the mere attempt will be used as an example of how Democrats "want to take our guns" case in point...HR45, That peace of legislation has ZERO co sponsors, but yet, it comes up in conversation with "gunnies" quite regularly. As you know Voters, that are gun owners tend to have very long memories, ask Mrs Feinstein about that..Mr and Mrs America have long memories......

Their is a mid term election coming up...And this is why I am getting nervous as hell.

9. The odds are very good, that if their is any serious attempt to pass gun control, it will not just result in the gun control legislation's fiery defeat, it will result in PRO GUN legislation being passed in its place, as congressmen, and senators go to "prove" their 2nd Amendment credentials, and with a pro gun congress and senate, it is very likely to happen, as it does in the states all the time.

I see, a deep red sky, forming on the horizon this morning, blotting out lots of blue, and I can't help but to think of this old maritime saying..

Red Sky at night, sailors delight, Red Sky at morning, Sailors take warning.

Many of us here on DU are getting damn tired of having to fight our own party on this issue, the Rethugs are busy crapping all over the Bill of Rights, and I be damned, the one part that they basically leave alone, some in our own party are after to destroy.

Damn Hypocrites...ALL OF THEM.....

[Chipper Chat]

1. Hey, President Gore.....

That's what he would have been called had he stood up and fought the rumors that he was going to take away all the guns in Tennessee (wish I had a link to those untruthful 2000 Puke ads). He lost his home state to Boosh over this - hence, the election. Your post is timely. K&R.

[pipoman]

2. No

it is their failure to take a stand. They are wishy washy, as was Obama, using innuendo and catch phrases. It is simple, this chipping away which is going on less than 3 months after taking office will have consequences. If this treaty is enforced and legislation is pushed, the curtains will be falling in 2 years. If the party doesn't remove the current gun related clap trap in our platform and our candidates don't quit with the doublespeak and simply say that further gun regulation will be left to the states, I fully expect real problems for the party in coming years. Our candidates and leaders must denounce new regulation and, if anything, fully fund enforcement efforts. Defund portions of the 'war on drugs' if they must to pay for enforcement of existing law, but quit with redundant ineffectual legislation and for chris' sake no signing onto sovereignty limiting, unconstitutional international treaties.

[benEzra]

5. No, it wasn't about "all the guns in Tennessee." Gore just promised to ban

over-10-round guns, and popular small- and intermediate-caliber centerfire rifles with modern styling (aka "assault weapons")---in other words, the most popular guns in America. The same thing that clobbered him in West Virginia and Florida.

The repubs at the Brady Campaign don't want to ban ALL guns, just those with post-19th-century styling or post-1860's magazine capacity. Just like the Moral Majority never wanted to ban all books, just the ones they disapproved of; Operation Rescue doesn't want to ban all abortions, just elective ones; and the Bush Administration didn't want to torture everybody, just those they accused of Terrah.

The gun issue is primarily about the "assault weapon" fraud, draconian magazine capacity limits, and restrictions on lawful purchase and use, not some imaginary threats to grandpa's Winchester .30-30.

This might help you understand the issue a bit better (written in 2004, but even more applicable now):

Dems and the Gun Issue - Now What?

[Chipper Chat]

15. It was all in the perception.

I have relatives in Tennessee. I told them exactly what you just posted but they didn't believe me. And they are democrats! Local talk radio was a big factor here. They exxagerated and outright lied about "Gore will take away all yer guns." That's typical Tennessee republican politics. Look what Corker did to Harold Ford.

[benEzra]

18. Umm, Gore PROMISED to ban "assault weapons" and full-capacity handguns.

That was not a misperception; the guns he promised to restrict were and are the most popular civilian rifles and pistols in America. Again, the gun issue is primarily NOT about the hunting guns that Gore made clear he'd leave alone; it is primarily about guns that would be affected by the "assault weapon" fraud, which he vocally supported. He also promised to make it illegal to buy a handgun without a Federally mandated license, and promised to fight carry-license reform, among other things.

Saying you don't want to ban all guns, just the most popular ones, doesn't play much better than saying you want to ban them all.

Now, some of the above may be blamed on Gore's DLC advisors, who were so goddamn clueless about the issue that they thought talking up hunting while fighting to ban the most popular target and defensive firearms in America was a winning strategy. I've already posted here why that strategy was an abject failure.

There are still a few Gore campaign press releases floating 'round the 'net spelling it out. Here's one, from the Gore campaign itself:

VICE PRESIDENT AL GORE:
PROTECTING OUR CHILDREN FROM GUN VIOLENCE

As a member of Congress, and as Vice President, Al Gore has
fought to keep dangerous guns out of the hands of criminals. He
supported a ban on assault weapons, worked to craft a compromise on
the Brady Bill, and has fought for additional penalties for
gun-related crimes. In addition, the Vice President has been a vocal
advocate for eliminating guns in our schools.

PROPOSING NEW MEASURES TO GET GUNS OFF THE STREET
Gore Has Proposed A Comprehensive Plan to Get Guns Off Our
Streets. In a speech to the Boston Police Department, Vice
President Gore announced his comprehensive plan to end gun violence.
As part of this plan, a Gore Administration will:

Require Photo Licensing for Handgun Purchases. Al Gore
will seek a nationally mandated, state-run system of photo
licensing for all potential hand gun purchasers. Under the Gore
proposal, anyone who wants to buy a handgun would have to have a
license that would prove they are eligible to own a handgun
(having passed a background check to prevent felons and the
mentally ill from buying guns and demonstrated knowledge of gun
safety).

Ban “Junk Guns.” Al Gore believes that we should ban
so-called “junk guns,” the cheap handguns so often used in
violent crimes.

Increase Gun-Related Criminal Penalties. Al Gore will
work to increase penalties for gun-related crimes, including the
use of a gun in a violent crime, illegal gun trafficking, and for
knowingly selling a gun to someone ineligible to purchase one. In
addition, Al Gore will provide grants to states to develop systems
that will help to end plea bargaining for criminals who use a gun
in a crime.

Limit Gun Sales to One-a-Month and Require a Three Day
Waiting Period for Purchases. Al Gore believes that a
one-gun-a-month limit and a three day waiting period for gun
purchases are reasonable measures that can help reduce the number
of guns on the street.

Close the Gun Show Loophole. Al Gore will continue to
fight to close the loophole that has allowed gun shows to be
exempt from the Brady Law.

Require Child-Safety Locks on Hand Guns. In an effort to
save the lives of thousands of children, Al Gore will work to
require child-safety locks on handguns.

Oppose Special Legal Protections for Gun Manufacturers.
Al Gore will oppose efforts to provide special legal protections
for gun manufacturers.

Oppose Weakening Restrictions on Concealed Weapons. Al
Gore will oppose efforts to loosen existing limits on concealed
weapons.

Improve Efforts to Trace Gun Ownership. Al Gore will
require gun manufacturers and federally-licensed sellers to report
gun sales to a state authority. This requirement would greatly
assist law enforcement in tracing ownership of guns if they are
used in a crime.

WORKING TO CLOSE THE GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE
Gore Cast the Tie-Breaking Vote to Close the Gun Show Loophole.
Vice President Gore cast the tie-breaking vote to pass Senate
legislation to close the loophole in existing law that has allowed gun
shows to be exempt from the Brady Law, and to require background
checks on individuals who seek to retrieve their own guns from pawn
shops. Following Gore’s dramatic vote, Sarah Brady of Handgun
Control Inc. wrote to the Vice President thanking him for his
“continued leadership,” stating that “…once again you have
come through at a crucial time for the cause of gun violence
protection.”

SUPPORTING A BAN ON ASSAULT WEAPONS
Gore Voted to Ban 9 Types of Assault Weapons. As a Senator
in 1990 and 1991, Al Gore supported legislation that would have banned
the manufacture and importation of nine assault style weapons.

Gore was Instrumental in Securing Passage of the 1994 Crime
Bill. As Vice President, Gore fought to enact the landmark 1994
Crime Bill, which included a provision banning nineteen types of
assault weapons. As Gore told CNN: “We've got an epidemic of violent
crime and a lot of members of the NRA have told me, these assault
weapons weren't made for hunting deer or squirrels or for
homeowners...They shouldn't be in the hands of our children on the
streets of our cities.”

WORKING TO REDUCE CHILDREN’S ACCESS TO GUNS
Gore Worked to Get Guns Out of Our Schools. In early 1994,
Vice President Gore encouraged Congress to pass legislation that will
help take guns out of schools. Congress later adopted, and the
President signed, the Gun-Free Schools Act, which required all states
that receive federal education funding to adopt policies requiring a
mandatory 1-year expulsion for any student who brings a gun to school.

Fighting to Keep Handguns Out of the Hands of Our Youth.
Vice President Gore and the Administration are fighting to pass the
Youth Gun Crime Enforcement Act. This proposal by the Administration
would:

Raise the minimum age to possess a handgun from 18 to 21.
CLOSE THE LOOPHOLE THAT ALLOWS THESE YOUTH TO PURCHASE A HANDGUN
AT A GUN SHOW OR AN UNLICENSED DEALER EVEN THOUGH THEY COULD NOT
DO SO FROM A LICENSED DEALER.

Prohibit juveniles from possessing assault rifles and large
capacity ammunition feeding devices that were manufactured before
the effective date of the assault weapons ban in 1994. Current law
only prohibits these youth from possessing assault pistols.


An Advocate for Child Safety Locks. For nearly two years, Al
Gore has been advocating mandatory child safety locks to protect
children from handguns. While the Administration reached an agreement
with a majority of gun manufacturers to voluntarily include gun locks
in the sale of new guns, Gore believes further protections are needed
and should be required. That is why he has called upon Congress to
pass legislation that would require all guns that are sold to have a
child safety lock.

...

STANDING UP TO THE GUN INDUSTRY
Gore Supports the Rights of Cities to Hold the Gun Industry
Responsible. Vice President Gore supports the rights of local
governments to sue gun manufacturers and sellers. Over the past year,
several local governments – including New Orleans, Chicago, Atlanta,
and Miami-Dade County – have filed lawsuits attempting to hold the
gun industry responsible for the damage created by their products.

[Pullo]

19. It is this stupidity that doomed Al Gore

Thank you for your update. This kind of thing needs to be preserved, to at least give opportunity to learn from the past.


Yeah, the gun issue had nothing to do with Gore's defeat :eyes:

[jody]

20. benEzra and other DU Guns forum regulars have been posting such facts since DU began. The sad thing

is many DUers remain grossly ignorant of those facts and unfortunately many-gun-grabbers have not bothered to read the law of the land as stated by SCOTUS in D.C. v. Heller.

For example, in today's threads there are posts showing the DUer believes "assault weapons" are "assault rifles".

Such people don't have the basic knowledge to read much less comment about Obama's predicament with his continued support of renewing AWB.

Ignorance of facts can be corrected by education if one is willing to learn but ignorance because one intentionally ignores facts presented to her/him borders on stupidity, of course that's just my personal opinion.

[X_Digger]

21. Honestly, some of it is willful ignorance..

.. and proudly ignorant (not meaning that in a derogatory way, truly lack of knowledge.)

[jody]

22. IMO willful ignorance can lead to political suicide particularly if it involves ignoring 80+ million

voters who own firearms and there were about 130+ million voters in the last election.

[Tim01]

23. I think it's comming.

It looks to me like there is a fairly large number of important people who are willing to wreck the democrat party in order to work their own personal crusade against guns.
Time will tell if I am wrong.

[Itchinjim]

3. Iowa has no "Right to Carry" law, yet has one of the lowest crime rates in the nation.

Just an observation.

[ingac70]

4. ...

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/iowa.pdf

[benEzra]

6. Ummm, it's not hard for an ordinary citizen to get a carry license in Iowa...

unlike, say, Maryland.

New Hampshire, the state with the lowest murder rate in the nation, also has a very high rate of carry licensure. CHL holders aren't the problem and never have been, as you well know.

[DonP]

8. Iowa is a "May Issue" state

My cousins in Council Bluffs and Clinton and my BIL in Mason City all have permits issued at their request by the CLEO in their area with no questions and just a quick background check.

There is a lot more CC in Iowa than most folks realize.

[SteveM]

29. And Vermont has no laws regulating carry -- HUGE crime rate.

My fart don't stink, either.

[dashrif]

7. love

the dueling axes reminds me of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGlVhss6Gr4

[yay]

16. HA

that was good lol.

[jeepnstein]

9. Think about it this way.

The GOP used to have it's conservative voting base set up like a three-legged stool. God, Guns, Gays. If we just kick one leg out from underneath them, we win. Taking on religion is toxic. So which of the two other issues do you deny your opponent without doing harm to your own voting base?

If we take the 2nd Amendment off the table, we win in States that are close.

[Iktomiwicasa]

10. K&R

"Damn Hypocrites...ALL OF THEM..."

Yes, they are.

[reggie the dog]

11. excellent post

i love the drawing at the bottom.

[Tim01]

12. They keep coming back to the guns, I think it will get ugly.

President Obama wants to be able to just not talk about guns now because it will be a disaster. But the rest of the democrats in govt are doing it for him, they won't shut up about it and he won't shut them up.
That was because the Bush team was HATED by everyone. Obama couldn't have had a better opponent. Obama promised "Change". That is a blank slate that everybody can fill in as they want to believe. Change from Bush.
Blank slate time is over. President Obama is still very popular, but he is pissing people off as they see he is not able to please all of the people all of the time, but Bush is still hated. It's only been 100 days or so.
The big idea that the democrats/obama are going to save us all from Bush policies is fading. The balance is moving back toward the center. And the gun issue is now a sledge hammer instead of a carpenters hammer.
It looks like the democrats leadership is still determined to go after the guns and the American people will pick up that sledge hammer and clobber the democrats with it. The democrats will have to wait for another decade or so of rampant republican rule to get some power back in spite of the gun issue.

virginia mountainman, great post BTW.

[one-eyed fat man]

13. beginning to wonder

There is an old joke about paratrooper training.

Sergeant says, "When you hit the end of the static line, the main parachute will automatically open. If it doesn't, you pull the ripcord to open the reserve. When you get to the the ground, a bus will be waiting to take you back to the barracks."

A hapless trooper goes out the door and the main chute fails to deploy. He yanks the ripcord and nothing happens. Then he says, "Damn, I bet he lied about the bus, too!"

Going to protect my job by ensuring "undocumented immigrants" a path to citizenship?

Not going to take my gun away but believes an assault weapons ban makes sense, just not yet?

Looking down, it seems like the ground is coming up fast......................

[Pullo]

14. Fantastic post!

1994 wasn't just a turnover in Congress, it was a nationwide cascade in local, state, and federal governments. The gun issue cannot be understated, and as you said, the long knives were out inside the NRA back then. That is not the case now.

A young George Bush upset popular Democratic incumbent Ann Richards. Is anyone naive enough think Richards' gun control positions didn't hurt her....in TEXAS???

If it weren't for the Democratic party's stance on gun rights, that bumbling fucking idiot couldn't have won a BFE county commissioner seat, let alone governor and so on.

[kudzu22]

24. If the Democrats could just

get rid of the anti-gun plank in the party platform, and replace it with an unwavering support for 2nd amendment rights, the party would be unstoppable. I don't understand why a party that is supposedly on the side of the average person (healthcare, jobs, education, equal opportunity, etc.) can be so AGAINST the average person on this one issue. Let's be consistent and support ALL civil rights, including the RKBA, and we'll have a hundred-year reign in power.

[jody]

17. And here on DU we pro-RKBA Dems are relegated to a forum called by the disparaging name "gungeon"

when in fact we are the true DEMOCRATS dedicated to protecting all inalienable/unalienable or pre-existing rights enumerated and unenumerated in our Constitution.

Any one who does not support the right of law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms for self-defense is a hypocrite if they claim to support civil rights.

Outstanding thread virginia mountainman that should be a must-read for DU's gun-grabbers so they can consciously decide whether they want to help Republicans take away some of our seats in congress occupied by Democrats.

My guess is many of them will side with Feinstein, the Scary Brady Bunch, and other gun-grabbers to falsely characterize Democratic candidates as gun-grabbers and make it more difficult to campaign in 2010.

[Artie Bucco]

26. The disparaging of gun owners here is disappointing

Now I have not posted much in here on this but I have watched some people's attacks on gun owners and I am quite disappointed. Are we not as democrats supposed to me more accepting when compared to the Republicans? Fore those who like to paint gun owners in broad terms I will mention a few facts about me:In my room you will find a poster of the Haymarket Eight along with a Mosin Nagant and WASR-10 under my bed. I am in favor of gay marriage, for a national health care system, rabidly pro-union and in a unionized job myself; I am also college student with a double major. I might as well add that I am Mexican and collect vinyls.

I consider myself a Democratic Socialist.

But to reiterate the disparaging of Democratic Gun owners by what seem to me like Latte Liberals is annoying to watch.

[Hoopla Phil]

25. Excellent post. Thank you.

[virginia mountainman]

27. Kick, the pitter patter of BS Legislation is starting up again..

[krispos42]

28. Remember, the RNC wants Dems to pass a new AWB...

...just as much as Feinstein, Bloomberg, or McCarthy does.

[SteveM]

30. I stand by this: DU's "Forums: Guns" is the front line in the battle to protect 2A (nt)