So where are the drug cartels REALLY getting their weapons?

[Hoopla Phil]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,7497626,full.story


MEXICO UNDER SIEGE
Drug cartels' new weaponry means war

Narcotics traffickers are acquiring firepower more appropriate to an army -- including grenade launchers and anti-tank rockets -- and the police are feeling outgunned.
By Ken Ellingwood and Tracy Wilkinson
5:53 PM PDT, March 13, 2009

The Feb. 21 attack on police headquarters in coastal Zihuatanejo, which injured four people, fit a disturbing trend of Mexico's drug wars. Traffickers have escalated their arms race, acquiring military-grade weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets with firepower far beyond the assault rifles and pistols that have dominated their arsenals.

Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiauto- matic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.




Well well well. I've been reading a lot in the news lately about the "U.S. Gun Shows" supplying the cartels with weapons but have been asking, but never hearing, about the bait and switch our politicians are using when they discuss the issue. See, the U.S. politicos are indicting U.S. FFL dealers on the straw purchases of SEMI-AUTO hand guns and rifles but then go on to talk about the heavy firepower the cartels have. The result is to give the false (intentionally maybe) impression that the cartels are getting this heavy firepower from the U.S. Looks like the truth has finally been tracked down.

[Duckhunter935]

1. Grenades and rockets

Have not seen them at the gun store or gun show. Must be looking in the wrong place. They also show AR-15s and say they are the same as the military has.

[lapfog_1]

2. Hmmm, smuggling something INTO Mexico from the US

at any of the border crossings would not be difficult at all.

I've crossed into Mexico a number of times and have never ever even been stopped and asked to present ID,
much less questioned or have my car looked at. If anything happens, it's a guy that looks up from inside
his booth and waves me through. Going back into the US... much different story.

Assuming one can get their hands on military grade weapons here, getting them into Mexico to sell to the
drug lords would be fairly simple, especially for experienced smugglers.


But hey, that's just my observation.

[Hoopla Phil]

3. Yes It would be very easy. The problem though

is that it is very hard to get that kind of stuff here in the states. (as in near impossible) It seems to be fairly easy though to get it into Mexico from it's southern boarder.

[Yavapai]

4. They are probably picking them up a Nicaraguan Contra's yard-sales and

from Mexican solders, who are stealing them from the Mexican Army's supplies. You know, the ones we are providing to the Mexican Government.

If we pull our troops out of the middle-east now, we may be in time to stop what appears to be a new Mexican Revolution. If it turns out to be a revolution, at least the resulting Mexican government will not be any more corrupt than the old one!

[billyoc]

5. Anyone who thinks these weapons come from America is a fucking idiot.

Period.

[msongs]

6. good to know none of these weapons are made by US companies. whew! nt

[billyoc]

9. I wish they were, but alas, no.

[jeepnstein]

23. Some may be...

If it's a Colt, then it's American Made. Colt deals with foreign governments all the time. Their sales to the citizen and domestic law enforcement market are just a fraction of their production.

FN also makes the M16 platform. I believe H&K does as well. AK's are simple to build and we had a poster on here who could make one almost from scratch. I have no doubt that some drug runners are buying pistols in the States but I'd really like to see some numbers on how many.

I'd really like to see a comprehensive study of the weapons seized in the last couple of years in Mexico and where they were originally sold. As far as I can find, Mexico hasn't released that kind of information.

[Hoopla Phil]

7. You mean General Barry McCaffrey maybe, in his after action report?

http://www.mccaffreyassociates.com/pdfs/Mexico_AAR_-_December_2008.pdf

D. Mexican law enforcement authorities and soldiers face heavily armed drug gangs with high-powered military automatic weapons. Perhaps 90% of these weapons are smuggled across the US border. They are frequently purchased from licensed US gun dealers in Texas, Arizona, and
7
California. AK-47 assault rifles are literally bought a hundred at a time and illegally brought into Mexico. Mexican authorities routinely seize BOXES of unopened automatic military weapons. The confiscation rates by Mexican law enforcement of hand grenades, RPG’s, and AK-47’s are at the level of wartime battlefield seizures. It is hard to understand the seeming indifference and incompetence of US authorities at state and Federal level to such callous disregard for a national security threat to a neighboring democratic state. We would consider it an act of warfare from a sanctuary state if we were the victim.
The bottom line---the US is ineffective and unresponsive to Mexican concerns about weapons, bulk cash, and precursor chemicals flowing south into Mexico from the United States--- with a blow-torch effect on the security of the Mexican people.

[billyoc]

8. ESPECIALLY him. He should know that nobody is smuggling RPG's into the US

just to smuggle them into Mexico.

[jmg257]

10. So where the hell are US dealers getting so many full auto weapons?

Are they stealing M16s & M4s from the army or what? 1000s of real AK-47s? Chinese? Russian? Whose?? How are they getting here?

[TheWraith]

27. Who's claiming US dealers are selling automatic weapons?

All the claims have to do with US dealers selling SEMI-auto weapons. Which is stupid, since the cartel can easily smuggle real auto weapons into Mexico anywhere they like. They don't need to buy knockoffs from the US.

[Hoopla Phil]

28. General Barry McCaffrey for one. Since you seem to have not read post 7 here ya go

http://www.mccaffreyassociates.com/pdfs/Mexico_AAR_-_De...

Mexican law enforcement authorities and soldiers face heavily armed drug gangs with high-powered military automatic weapons. Perhaps 90% of these weapons are smuggled across the US border. They are frequently purchased from licensed US gun dealers in Texas, Arizona,

[ManiacJoe]

29. There is an obvious problem with those statements.

If 90% of these automatic weapons are coming from the USA, where are we getting them from in the first place?
Automatic AK47s are neither manufactured here nor imported. M16s are not available for civilian consumption.

[Hoopla Phil]

30. You are correct. There Is however an AK-47 factory in Venezuela. Hummm. . .

[TheWraith]

34. Okay, show me a licensed gun dealer in the US that stocks full-auto AK-47s.

Oh, wait. You can't, because those are illegal here. And even the few that aren't are ridiculously expensive. Saying that licensed US dealers are going to sell illegal weapons to the cartel is like saying that the company which makes Jack Daniels is going to bomb the corporate headquarters of Gray Goose vodka. These guys are businessmen who, unless they're morons, have zero interest in risking their business and imprisonment for the rest of their lives over selling guns to drugrunners, at least not at a price competitive to what the drugrunners can buy them for elsewhere.

[Yavapai]

11. There is a very interesting article that touches on this.

It is called "Drug War Doublespeak".

and it is found at http://americas.irc-online.org/am/5935

I thought it was a really eye-opening read.

[gorfle]

12. This is insane.

Do you really think that Mexico's drug cartel's major source of military grade firepower comes from the United States?

Do you have any idea how regulated fully-automatic weapons and explosives are in the United States?

Just where do you think someone would go to buy "hand grenades, RPGs, and AK-47s" in the United States? Where in the United States do you go to buy BOXES of automatic military weapons?

I don't buy it for a SECOND.

This stuff is coming from Central America, shipped in from who knows where.

If this kind of military hardware was leaking out of the United States the people responsible would be flat-out NUKED by the BATFE. It would be a raid that would make Waco look like a traffic stop.

[Hoopla Phil]

13. You are absolutely 100% correct.

Like I said in my O.P. I've been asking where the evidence is that the heavy weapons in the drug cartel's hands is coming from the U.S. Nobody has any. The only evidence is of a few cases where semi-auto handguns (and a few semi-auto long guns) have been bought in the U.S. in straw purchase deals and smuggled into Mexico. Our "leaders" site THAT evidence and then go on to discuss the heavy weapons being smuggled into Mexico in an extremely devious manor as General McCaffrey has done (IMO).

[slackmaster]

15. The fact that Gen. McCaffrey should be an expert on the subject makes him a super double plus idiot

:nuke:

A California-legal AK-47 is even more neutered than ones available in most other states.

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. He's not an idiot- he's a liar fomenting a moral panic for profit.

He was the 'Drug Czar', for FSM's sake! He was doing this schtick with drugs, now he's
branched out to guns.

Harry J. Anslinger would be *so* proud...

[MnFats]

20. McCaffrey is a fucking war criminal

not hard to google and find accounts of how he allowed surrendering iraqis to be slaughtered in the waning hours of the Gulf War.
he belongs in prison.

[Tejas]

16. Especially at $16k for an M16, $18,000 (and up) for an AK-47 - n/t

[billyoc]

18. Exactly. I doubt the Guatemalan black market price is so steep.

[Tejas]

19. Don't forget El Salvador and Nicaragua, their military museums are proof of

the variety of AK-47's imported from numerous sources. Oddly enough, they are still unearthing North Korean AK's in Nicaragua that were abandoned etc.


Also, let's not forget those slow cruises through the Panama Canal. Not like the cameras can catch every last crate that gets slipped over the side of a freighter under cover of darkness.

[Hoopla Phil]

22. How about the AK factory in Venezuela? Wonder how many come from there?

[Tejas]

36. Chavez - Lord of War

Chavez has probably realized by now how much $$$$$$$$$ there is in the arms trade, wouldn't put it past him to crank AK's out 24/7.

Concerning supply of AK's, North Korea has tried to do it on the down low while it's business as usual with China and Russia. The way I see it, Russia tries to supply mainly military venues but China sells to the "lower-income" groups such as warring factions in Africa's coup-of-the-week.

Chavez won't be so picky, he'll sell to the entire spectrum.

[Tejas]

40. and seeing as Venezuela just militarized its ports of entry,

the UN won't be able to monitor exports.

[Iktomiwicasa]

14. Goddamn politicians lying to the public

again (what else is new?) to stir up sentiment favorable to strict gun control laws.

[Hoopla Phil]

21. Delete. Posted in the wrong place.

[spin]

24. Interesting read that provides some answers...

The next day I went into work and sat down with a trusted senior Mexican manager. I looked at him and said, "I thought guns were illegal in Mexico." He chuckled and said, "So you stayed in town last night?" As the conversation progressed, it became clear that guns are as common in Mexico as tamales at Christmas. Everyone he knows, including himself, own at least one gun. And, it matters not whether it's a semi-auto or fully automatic, they're all illegal, so why stop with semi-autos? Though clearly illegal in the states in most instances, a lot of Mexicans have more firepower in terms of military weapons than we can only dream of owning here.

As time went on, parties in the city at middle class Mexican homes become a way of life. Most Mexican managers in the plant knew I was a gun wonk. As it turns out, they couldn't wait to invite me over to their place on a Friday night to show me their collection. Semi-autos, some very high-end Sigs and other European handguns were not uncommon along with piles of old revolvers. I thought I had seen everything in the states, but in Mexico it's not uncommon for people to own full-auto military rifles. Everything from an M16, UZI machine pistols and the most popular, select-fire AK47 military rifles. These are not the so-called "assault weapons" you can buy at the local gun shop in the U.S., but full select-fire military-issue rifles. Now, I know you want to know and are dying to ask; Did I see any U.S. military-issue weapons stolen from the U.S. military? Not a single one was marked with U.S. military markings. Everything was marked with additional foreign markings on the receiver, including M16 rifles, or they had nothing at all. I saw firearms manufactured in Europe, China, Russia and South America along with U.S. manufactured weapons. I saw rifles that looked familiar with no place of manufacture, no serial number or manufacturer's logo. The information was not removed, it was never there to begin with. I can only assume they came from illegal arms manufacturers in India or Pakistan that produce copies of weapons. It was obvious that none of these firearms came from a U.S. gun shop in Tucson or San Diego. You couldn't buy them from a gun shop in the states if you tried.
http://www.gunnewsdaily.com/rw807.html

[jeepnstein]

25. Hmm...

Has Mexico become so lawless that this kind of thing is common? If anyone in the States had that kind of illegal collection, it wouldn't be long before the ATF would be at their door for Trick or Treat.

I really think Mexican authorities, and I use the term loosely, need to assess just where their guns are being bought. If they'd share serial numbers with U.S. authorities I'm sure they'd have no problem stomping on any FFL found to be engaged in a pattern of straw purchasing.

[Hoopla Phil]

26. Thanks for the additional information. Great read.

[Hoopla Phil]

31. US Gun Dealer "Not Guilty" in Guns to Mexico case!

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/200...


Gottsfield issued a directed verdict of not guilty for Iknadosian, 47, who was charged with fraud, money-laundering and other offenses.

[Furyataurus]

32. I wonder

what the judge found wrong?

[Hoopla Phil]

33. This IS the ATF we're talking about. What DIDN'T the judge find wrong

would be more in the asking.

[ManiacJoe]

35. Lack of evidence.

From the article: "Under Arizona law, Rule 20 holds that a case must be thrown out if the state's evidence is inadequate for conviction."

[Tejas]

37. You can't handle the truth!

Here, this should keep the antis busy for a month.


http://judds-surplus.bravehost.com/p1.htm



:rofl:

[Hoopla Phil]

38. That's funny! Especially like the 50 cal heat seeking ammo. LMAO

[Tejas]

41. I shot full-auto 50cal the other day

We don't need no stinking heat-seeking bullets, the dang bow-wave off those puppies would probably shatter anything they pass by LOL!

[rq4a]

39. Yup Fienstein got it wrong again.

Has someone pointed out to Feinstein that it is pretty hard to find grenades, grenade launchers, and anti-tank rockets at border town gun stores.