RKBA’s deadly enemy “Help Pass the Ammunition Accountability Act”

[jody]

Help Pass the Ammunition Accountability Act and battleground states


Below are gun-grabber beetles in line hoping to pass the Ammunition Accountability Act to infringe upon the natural, inherent, inalienable/unalienable right to keep and bear arms for self-defense.

[villager]

1. Why should ammo used in crimes be easy to trace? It's an outrage!

n/t

[jody]

2. We should require a DNA sample from everyone to make crimes easier to solve. n/t

[county worker]

4. Why not give up all rights to privacy and freedom so we'll feel safe?

[jody]

6. Makes sense to me, that is if I was into fascism. I believe all rights protected by our Constitution

are of equal importance whether enumerated or unenumerated and covered by the 9th.

[tucsonlib]

41. Really?

Bush eavesdrops on the private phone calls and emails of every American. jody yawns. Arrest and imprisonment without charge? "Don't bother me, son." Torture? Must not meet jody's definition for "cruel and unusual". But someone suggests tagging his hollow-points and it's "Omigod!! Here come the black helicopters!!"

Or have I overlooked some little-known amendment that guarantees "The right to keep thy musket balls anonymous and untraceable shall not be infringed"?

:crazy: :tinfoilhat: :rofl:

[jody]

48. What balderdash. Goodbye. n/t

[tucsonlib]

51. Another Scathing, Fact-Filled Retort

You have mortally wounded me, Sir! Such an intelligent and eloquent rebuttal recalls that historic moment in the 2nd Lincoln/Douglas debate, where Lincoln thoroughly discredited his opponent's position by solemnly proclaiming, "Oh, Yeah?? Yo' Mama!!"

:rofl:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

52. And all you have done is whine about it here.

[villager]

5. Typical NRA tactic: Argue something that has nothing to do with the law in question

n/t

[jody]

7. The stated intent of ammunition accountability is to solve crimes. The unstated intent is to ban

guns by increasing the cost of ammunition.

[villager]

8. unstated intent according to your NRA handlers?

At least you're finally addressing the law in question, regardless of your state of hyperbole...

[jody]

9. NRA is not my handler but can I assume you are a member of the gun-grabber group espousing Scary

Brady Bunch myths and distortions?

[villager]

11. "NRA's not my handler -- I just repeat their rhetoric verbatim"

I guess the membership is cheaper that way?

[jody]

15. I see your answer is yes. I've heard the Scary Brady Bunch tripe ad nauseam. Goodbye. n/t

[villager]

19. well, you've certainly *repeated* the "Scary Brady Bunch" tripe ad nauseum

And yes: Adieu!

[DrCory]

56. That Is Not What He Said...

So why the quotation marks?

[Hugabear]

79. Sez who?

Gee, I'm sorry if you would have to pay a few extra bucks to get your precious ammo. Maybe you can point out in the Constitution where it guarantees you the right to cheap and easily accessible ammunition?

Fuck, by your logic, since the ownership of firearms is a Constitutional right, then guns should be very cheap also!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

53. Why are you so scared of inanimate objects?

[tucsonlib]

70. Why Do You Worship Inanimate Objects?

Why do you equate liberty and freedom with inanimate objects?
Why are you so obsessed with inanimate objects?

You have posted two comments in this thread so far:

"All you have done is whine about it here" and:

"Why are you so scared of inanimate objects?"

Quick, snide, off-topic remarks followed by a hasty retreat. A tactic most often utilized on grade school playgrounds and here in the Gun Forum.

[iverglas]

10. ammunition gots rights!!!

Is ammunition male, female or some other thing? Does it have an ethnicity?

I guess it has a national origin. Let's all be on guard against discrimination against foreign-born ammunition!

Maybe jody has some tales he can tell about the hardships suffered by Negro ammunition ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=176965&mesg_id=177543

(and my reply, of course)

[villager]

13. ammunition clearly has greater rights that murder victims do!

n/t

[Hugabear]

80. Thanks for that link

That article is something I'd expect to find on Stormfront, not here on DU.

[DonP]

12. Great idea - Access to all medical records too

As long as the end justifies the means, (according to some folks with shit for brains), we should require allowing full access to medical records by both police ... and any interested parties. (sarcasm) After all that's why Brady wants with Tiahrt repealed.

Medical records will provide DNA, blood type, a record of scars or other identifying marks etc. and, after all as gun grabbers tell us all the time ... "If it solves just one crime it will be worth it" - right?

[villager]

14. Great idea -- follow NRA orders to conflate the law in question with shit that doesn't exist

n/t

[tburnsten]

18. The Tiahrt amendment has been pursued by the bradys

And their political allies for some time as a way to "fight crime". Basically all it consists of is the dissolving of any right to privacy based on gun ownership status. It's a really fucked up bill, and anyone claiming to support freedom and privacy rights (i.e. anyone who belongs on DU) should find it repulsive.

[iverglas]

21. what horrifies me

Basically all it consists of is the dissolving of any right to privacy based on gun ownership status.

Is the total elimination of privacy based on parenthood status.

Mandatory registering of children! Soon they will be coming door to door, confiscating your sons, and then your daughters ...

[villager]

23. when children are outlawed, only outlaws will have children!?

n/t

[iverglas]

26. exactly!

[tburnsten]

24. Maybe we should have a department of firearms protection

Good thinkin' ivy!

[iverglas]

25. absolutely!

Obviously, firearms are even less able to exercise their rights without assistance than children are ... having no legs to run away with or arms to protect themselves with ... or brains to think with ... so surely the time has come.

Hey, then unfortunate firearms owned by "irresponsible" folks can be taken away and placed with loving foster parents ...

[tburnsten]

27. They can't even report being abused...

We could have the firearms equivalent of social workers to make sure they are properly cared for and oiled, and secured when left alone to avoid being abducted.

Teamwork rocks!

[villager]

28. Why, think of the "foster parents" that would be available for armaments of every stripe!

n/t

[gorfle]

36. I'm for that!

Hey, then unfortunate firearms owned by "irresponsible" folks can be taken away and placed with loving foster parents ...

I'll sign up to be a foster parent!

[SteveM]

72. You should charge for your work; the GOP pays well...

As you know, you are the kind of poster who promotes the stereotype of liberal Democrats as gun-grabbers and culture warriors. Since you are providing this valuable service for the right wing, why do you not charge for it?

You may wish to Google up some examples, but it is well known that the NRA actually keeps anti-gun editorial cartoonists in the pink (and black) by paying them royalties for re-prints in their house organs -- better to inflame their members to vote against Democrats.

You're really missing out on some quick cash, bud.

[iverglas]

77. "You're really missing out on some quick cash, bud."

You seem to be rather an expert on the subject.

Anything you'd like to share?

[jody]

17. Toast!

:toast:

[DonP]

32. Hear-hear!

I love it when people contradict themselves. They fully support the right to privacy ... except when it comes to gun owners... that's different of course. Then it's perfectly OK to demand to know about anything and everything you may have in your bedroom closet, locked in your basement, or in the trunk of your car. It's "for the children" so violating your privacy is OK then I guess.

After all those gun toting bastards deserve every infringement we can think up and every barrier we can have thrown in their way.

You know, some of these guys sound like out of work people from the Bush administration looking for new areas of the 4th amendment to ignore and infringe.

To quote Bugs Bunny, "What a bunch a maroons".

[iverglas]

34. yer funny indeed

It's "for the children" so violating your privacy is OK then I guess.


So much worse than having to register THE CHILDREN themselves. Pretty much a declaration to the government that you've been having sex, that one. And with whom. And not practising contraception!! (or doing it badly) But I guess that's the government's business.

Is your vehicle registered? Do you have a licence to drive it? How about your real property? Your ownership of shares / any office you hold in an incorporated business?

File a tax return? What business is it of the gu'mint's what you earn, let alone where/how you earn it?


All that, and the, er, identity of your ammunition is what's bothering you.

[iverglas]

20. a prize for you

http://www.fstdt.com/winace/pics/index.htm


Of course, you'll have to find an actual point to start from first ... do you actually have ammunition grafted onto some part of your anatomy?

[county worker]

3. Tell me how that works.

[tburnsten]

16. Because the idea is poorly thought out, nearly impossible to execute,

Will have serious, heavy financial consequences for gun owners and shooters, while it wouldn't realistically help solve any crimes. Usually if the investigators know where the ammo came from the rest of the case has already been locked up.

[X_Digger]

22. Bad business plan? Legislate it!

http://www.seattleweekly.com/2008-03-05/news/three-seattle-guys-want-to-bar-code-bullets.php

"Mace and Ford spent four and a half years and about $200,000 securing the patent for their ammunition tracking system. But once that patent was in place and they had formed a company, the unambiguously named Ammunition Coding System, to market the product, they couldn't find a manufacturer willing to consider stamping their bullets. So they focused their efforts on convincing lawmakers that coded ammunition could be a crucial crime-solving tool."

[Abq_Sarah]

71. Thanks for pointing that out

The ammunition accountability website is administered by the lobbying firm of Ammunition coding systems. This is a fairly elaborate scam being used to sucker people into contacting their legislators and pushing them to mandate the use of ACS's coding machines. It should be noted, it has died a quiet death in every state in which it has been introduced.

[rrneck]

29. I see the invisible hand of the

marketplace beginning to move. Reloaders, start your engines!

[tburnsten]

30. I don't, since the business that originated the "technology" is a failure

That is the one and only reason they are lobbying for legislation forcing companies to use their bullshit system, and making it illegal for anyone to possess ammunition that they didn't get royalties on.



Imagine the difficulty of "encoding" .22 LR. Americans shoot billions of rounds a year, this legislation is purely a get rich quick scheme by a couple of no-talent losers who couldn't find a commercially viable or acceptable way to design their system, so their answer is to get everything else made illegal. Mob tactics if I've ever seen them.

[Hoopla Phil]

31. I've got a number of problems with this. Perhaps someone in the know can help.

1) are there exemptions for police and military? If so, why? Stolen ammo from police and military pose just as much danger as any other ammo.

2) what about re-loaders? Will it be a crime to reload? Will you be able to reload if you purchase bullets that are numbered?

3) What about manufacture of your own bullets? Will that be outlawed?

4) This seems, on the surface, to be very cost prohibitive. Will there be Federal subsidies to bring the cost back down to a normal level?

5) What about the thousands of rounds of ammo already in circulation? Will that be made to be illegal? I see a number of constitutional problems with that.

Hell, I see a number of constitutional problems with the whole damn bill.

[tburnsten]

33. It's the bad answer to every one of your questions.

[iverglas]

35. another of those funny-weird coincidences

Jody's map, which he labels "battleground states" in the battle for/against "ammunition accountability":



a map breaking down US states by party in the 2008 presidential election:




Huh. Eerie similarities ...

[X_Digger]

37. better map..

blue states with this on the legislative agenda - 11
ca, wa, hi, il, in, pa, ny, md, ma, ri, ct

red states with this on the legislative agenda - 7
az, mo, ky, tn, ms, al, sc

Personally, I'm not seeing a trend. What was your point?

[iverglas]

40. good, a better map

I was finding them hard to come by.

Perhaps we could look at the populations / electoral college votes of the blue states in which the "ammunition accountability" battle has been joined.

I think we'd find a fairly close fit between major loci of Democratic Party support and efforts to make ammunition traceable.

[bossy22]

42. you are a smart individual iverglas

you should be able to see when legislation is silly or almost impossible to enforce

this is one of these cases.

The legislation has numerous problems. First off it forces you to dispose of all non-encoded ammuntion, but the government isnt offering compensation. In order for such a confiscation of private property to occur the government must offer fair market value (unless its in conjunction with a criminal investigation). This bill includes no such garuntee.

Also what about ammunition changing hands...i know many shooters (as myself) who "bum" a box of ammo off a friend, or even a family that shoots together. What about reloading? Are we going to ban reloading? Confiscate reloading equipment?

How about the fact that a similar law was put in place by the 1968 gun control act (that required that all handgun ammunition purches must be put in a ledger by a dealer with the purchasers information and then repealed by the 1986 FOPA because the regulation really had no benefit to law enforcement.

Microstamping is atleast feasable (Even if its benefits are insignificant) but tracing ammunition isnt.

Don't forget there was a similar peice of legislation a few years back that wanted to tag powders...it got some play in state legislatures but was ultimately abandoned because it was not feasable.

So if you want to try to push gun controls laws, atleast push laws which make sense, cause something like this is just silly, unconstitutional (in many many many ways), and just plainly not feasable

I should mention that its being lobbied by the company that holds the patent....surely they are only interested in increasing public safety and not making money....

[iverglas]

44. aw, shucks

Frankly, the ins and outs of it are not something I've paid, or will likely pay, attention to.

I just find it endlessly fascinating how Democratic Party initiatives / policies / legislation and Guns forum opinion seem to be polar opposites so much of the time.

As for this particular initiative, there's a much better way to regulate access to ammunition -- that always being better than trying to trace it *after* it's been used by the wrong person.

License firearms owners, and require that a licence be presented in order to buy ammunition, just like buying firearms.

Straw purchases would be an obvious problem, and I gather that some people on your side of the border spend 75% of their annual income on ammunition, so bulk purchases might not be such a red flag as they might be on my side, and as they are on your side in the case of firearms.

But there would still be deterrent value in making it flatly illegal to resell ammunition to individuals ineligible to possess firearms, just as it should be to resell firearms to them. And licensing & registration is the only way to achieve that deterrent effect.

(As for bumming ammunition, under a licensing/registration scheme: de minimis non curiat lex and all that.)

[bossy22]

45. understood

this legislation would be more feasable if there was a national registration/licensing system, but there inst.

"Straw purchases would be an obvious problem, and I gather that some people on your side of the border spend 75% of their annual income on ammunition, so bulk purchases might not be such a red flag as they might be on my side, and as they are on your side in the case of firearms."

Bulk ammunition purchases often saves money in the long run and bulk firearm purchases do raise more red flags then you think. As accordance with ATF regulations, any FFL who transfers (sells) more than one handgun in a 5 day period to a single individual must report those purchases to the ATF. You fill out to two forms with information on the buyer, the transaction numbers, the types of handguns purchased and then send it by mail to them.

Now the next part has its historical accuracy in question. From what people in the industry tell me that the system for handling these reports was supposed to work in a teir based system designed to track habitual large and questionable purchases. Lower teir reports would be one time deals (like if a guy buys 2 or 3 handguns at one point but doesnt buy in bulk again for months if not years, and higher teir reports which would be habitual bulk purchasers (multiple times a year/month). This system was never truly developed and it sort of ended up just as a back reference for an in process criminal investigation.

I dont know if that part is true though

[iverglas]

47. good to know about bulk firearms purchases

-- which I might think would also just raise the dealer's suspicions about straw purchases, if the individual fit/didn't fit some other profile.

It was the bulk ammunition purchases I meant to refer to.

567 cases of various ... reseller, or devoted hobbyist? ;)

[tburnsten]

54. I think most bulk straw purchasers might be bright enough

to switch up who they buy from a little bit. Especially since a gun shop can refuse to transfer a firearm to anyone they don't feel comfortable with. Who knows, though, people do some incredible things.

[tburnsten]

50. Some people shoot up to and occasionally over a hundred thousand rounds a year

At what point does buying ammunition cross into "bulk" buying? One case of any given caliber? 1000 rounds of pistol ammunition is a single afternoon at the range for many people, and lots of people prefer to buy all at once, gaining the lower prices that comes with buying more than a single box at a time.

[iverglas]

55. that's what I meant

The point is still that requiring that an individual have a firearms licence in order to purchaes ammunition, and expressly outlawing resale of ammunition by non-dealers, would

- impose an obstacle to ineligible individuals acquiring ammunition in the normal way, since they would be unable to acquire ammunition at retail

- make it plain to eligible individuals that reselling was an illegal act, which would be a deterrent to ordinary people, who generally don't go out of their way to do illegal things, selling ammunition to people not eligible to have it

[tburnsten]

57. I just mean that we yanks shoot up an awful lot of ammunition in a year

I dunno, it isn't a bad idea, just that there is so much of it that I could see people getting popped for illegal ammunition possession without ever realizing they even had any. I found a .40 S&W Remington Golden Saber on the floor of my back seat this weekend, the last time I had any Golden Saber in a carry gun, and by proxy the car, was last April. Bunch of shotshells for clay-busting in my trunk I thought I shot up already, it's a good thing that the states aren't like Mexico were a single round can put you away for years.

[iverglas]

60. I know; that's what I meant ;)

The thing is, if you had a licence to possess firearms and ammunition, you wouldn't have to worry about being "popped for illegal ammunition possession".

Other than the unsafe storage bit you describe, of course. ;)

[tburnsten]

61. Not sure it's all that unsafe

I mean, ammunition is incredibly stable, and even if someone were to break into my car I doubt they would have found the round on the floor, it took me ten months to find the thing after all, and I spend plenty of time in the car.

Some states are weird about ammunition, maybe that would be a helpful thing after all. In Canada is ammunition a restricted item, with a system like the one we are talking about?

[iverglas]

63. in Canada ...

In Canada is ammunition a restricted item, with a system like the one we are talking about?

Not unless there are some particular kinds of ammunition that are. I'm sure there is prohibited ammunition (as I believe there is in the US).

Ammunition is not "restricted" within the meaning of firearms legislation, i.e. available only to people with second-level firearms acquisition and possession licences (PALs), collectors and sports shooters who are members of approved clubs, the way certain firearms are (including handguns).

It's "restricted" in the more everyday sense of the word in the sense that it is legally available only to people with PALs (i.e. the basic firearms licence).

The impetus for making this change -- even when it became necessary to have a licence to acquire a firearm, it wasn't necessary for acquiring ammunition -- was the incident some years ago in Ottawa, the capital city, when a visiting British engineer was murdered on a busy downtown street at noon hour.

Four teenagers had broken into a home and stolen an illegally stored firearm (the owner was not publicly identified or charged), and then gone to the nearest Canadian Tire (major automotive, sports and hardware chain) and bought ammunition for it simply by handing over cash. Then they drove around downtown shooting out the car window, eventually hitting Nicholas Battersby.

Had they needed a licence to purchase the ammunition, they might not have been able to do this; they weren't exactly connected criminals with a plan. Apparently the owner of the firearm they stole did do one thing right (as now required by storage regulations): not store ammunition together with the firearm.

[marksmithfield]

74. Gotta love it

Unsafe storage? Ever drop anything iverglas? What a hoot!!!

[iverglas]

78. you may need an introductory course in smileyface icons

;)

is a wink. Think about it.

[X_Digger]

43. 34% vs 11% by electoral college. n/t

[aikoaiko]

38. Racists as party in 2008?

Gee, thanks a lot.

[iverglas]

39. good maps are hard to come by

I thought that

red blue states 2008 -2004

at google images should do the trick, but that was the best I could come up with, without spending an afternoon ...

http://images.google.ca/images?gbv=2&hl=en&safe=off&q=red+blue+states+2008+-2004&btnG=Search+Images

Not that I didn't appreciate the sentiment.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

49. well hello

brand new DUer!

Three posts so far -- all about gunz, and one in reply to a post of mine. I'm flattered, even though I know you didn't mean to do that.

Do you know, there are people who live their whole DU lives without even knowing there is a Guns forum??

[TheWraith]

64. Iverglas, you just cited a "map" produced by a right-wing website.

That "Democrats/Racists" map is one created by right-wing Republican website NoRebuttal.com.

[iverglas]

67. yeah?

Is it not accurate?


I went through several pages of google images results looking for what I thought ought to be a pretty simple thing to find. That was the best I could come up with. I didn't actually pay any attention to what it said, or where it came from.

And I didn't actually go looking for right-wing cesspools to dredge crap up from and bring it here to spew ...

[TheWraith]

69. Actually no, it wasn't accurate.

Because it relabeled 2004 map data as 2008, and attributed the whole mess to "The Barrak Obama campaign" in some pathetic attempt by the wingnuts to pretend that Obama was calling anyone who didn't vote for him a racist.

And you're clutching at straws in the first place trying to find correlation between red/blue states and ammo laws. A lot of those states looking at ammo laws were in the deep south and red midwest.

[iverglas]

68. same map

different location, no labels.

http://rezbibak.blogspot.com/2008/07/ahmad-silly-president-4-american.html

Figure that one out. (It's mildly amusing.)


I don't think you have a basis for saying that the map was produced by the right-wing website in question.


Hmm. Perhaps this one:

http://surveying-mapping-gis.blogspot.com/2008/11/red-states-blue-states.html



which was then redone based on population/popular vote:



which, I think, conveys my point.

[derby378]

58. A pertinent question at this point...

Has even a single state passed this "Ammunition Accountability" Act, other than California's own microstamping initiative that was signed into law before this website got off the ground?

[tburnsten]

59. Microstamping is even dumber than Ammunition Accountability Act

Although it would be much more cost effective, it would be even more useless and even more easily defeated. It also wouldn't drastically change life for shooters and gun owners the way AAA would love to.

[bossy22]

65. i disagree

microstamping is atleast feasible to do, tracing ammo isnt.

[tburnsten]

66. I agree with you on that, however, microstamping is so easy to defeat

That it is basically a worthless piece of legislation. Probably just another tool with a patent and no market for it trying to force it onto manufacturers and consumers via legislation. I'm sure my feelings and thoughts about both of them are pretty clear though.

[jody]

62. Don't know but the bill in AL will not pass. What is the gun-grabber strategy with these bills? Is

it just to keep voters angry over threats to RKBA so the corporate party can continue to rob and pillage while critical social issues like health, education, welfare, economy, foreign policy go lacking?

[marksmithfield]

75. And notice that several

weapons manufacturers are breaking all ties with california, as far as LEO and repair.

[SteveM]

73. Hard core prohibitionists in search of a scalp. Anything will do...

It's too late for the gun-controllers to ban "assault weapons" since some 15,000,000 American now own them; it's too late to ban handguns since this weapon is still the first choice of Americans for self-defense; it's no longer advantageous to depend on the anti-gun MSM since that institution's influence is rapidly waning. So they go for the ammo. Anything to try and gain a victory over folks who own guns. It has nothing to do with crime; nothing to do with security. It has everything to do with striking out at the "enemy" in their culture war.

[marksmithfield]

76. Agreed

Hard to believe the anti gun positions on a liberal board.