Scottish politician suspended for firing a gun while on vacation

[Howzit]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7548023.stm

"An SNP councillor in Glasgow has been suspended over allegations that he fired a Kalashnikov assault rifle while visiting Pakistan. The incident was said to have taken place during a family holiday in 2005.

A party spokesman said there was no suggestion that Jahangir Hanif had broken the law but it appeared to be "foolish and inappropriate conduct". Councillor Hanif said the incident took place before he was elected. He will now face a disciplinary hearing.

A statement from Councillor Hanif, who is presently in Pakistan, said: "I regret that this happened and apologise - it was foolish and inappropriate". He is well aware of the SNP's strong views against firearms, particularly involving children."


Does this mean that no ex-military personnel can join the government in Scotland because they would have fired weapons, or is there an exemption for following orders?

I guess killing in the line of duty is OK but shooting for fun is somehow degrading and unbecoming? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTmKjUTBo9U
Oh, I see; it is to save the childeren...

[Kutjara]

1. The SNP is a political party, not the government.

Councillor Hanif has been suspended by his party, and therefore cannot represent them on the Glasgow City Council. The SNP is a very "anti gun" party, so it's not surprising they would take this action. He didn't break any rules as far as the Council is concerned, just his own party rules.

It's similar to what would probably happen if a Green Party member was elected to local government in the US, and it was subsequently discovered he ran a stripmining operation in the Redwood forests. He'd no doubt be drummed out of the Greens, and thereby lose his elected seat.

Other parties have different rules. The Tories, for example, would no doubt welcome shooters with open arms.

[Howzit]

4. Silly me

I thought the Scottish National Party was part of the government. If not countrywide, then local; but government all the same. No? Then they aspire to govern. Isn't that why political parties exist? Otherwise, formulating policy might as well be a variation on a kids' game like Monopoly. Just for fun, like shooting an AK was for councilor Hanif.

Play the video at http://www.snp.org/campaigns/savings Notice the use of the words "SNP government"? I wonder what that means?

[Kutjara]

5. They certainly aspire to govern and their anti-gun stance...

...is an important part of their platform, but it's just a party stance. There is nothing in Scottish law that says someone who has fired a gun cannot serve in the government. Even if the SNP were in power, they'd have a hard time pushing that kind of law through, particularly in Scotland where hunting is such an important part of the lifestyle for many. But that is their position and you can either like it or find another party.

People join political parties because they agree or largely agree with that party's platform. While the average member who has no political ambitions can pretty much pick and choose which parts of the platform he/she agrees with, members with political ambitions better at least act as if they buy the whole thing. It's all part of playing the game, a game in which Mr. Hanif just got sent to the penalty box.

[Howzit]

6. "members with political ambitions better at least act as if they buy the whole thing."

Interesting synopsis. Now if we extend that idea to US political parties and their members' stance on gun control there seems to be a little disparity. Isn't the underlying principle to say whatever it takes to get elected, then support policies you actually believe in?

[Kutjara]

7. Certainly.

Of course politicians would say something like "a strong party is vital to representing the interests of our constituents, and party unity is the most vital component of strength. It is therefore important to stand behind the party's platform in its entirety (whatever one's personal feelings in respect of any given issue), because the platform represents the democratically-decided will of our constituency."

Or, in English, "whatever it takes to get elected."

[iverglas]

10. so what language was it in originally?

Were you using one of those on-line dictionary thingies?

[Malidictus Maximus]

13. "say whatever it takes to get elected, then support policies you actually believe in?"

More like 'support policies that will get you RE elected"

[iverglas]

8. silly you indeed

Surely, though, you really are not this silly, are you?

The Scottish National Party is not "part of the government". The party is not a government entity.

Jeezus, how would you feel if somebody posited an identity between the Republican Party and the government of the United States?


Notice the use of the words "SNP government"? I wonder what that means?

Do you really?? I mean, if you really do, let us know where you are, and I'm sure many people can recommend a good high school civics course you can take on line.

[Howzit]

18. What is government?

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." -- George Washington

Was Washington a Republican or a Democrat?

[hendo]

21. Neither

:P

In fact, the first Democratic President was Andrew Jackson in 1829, and the first Republican president was Lincoln in 1861

Sorry, I had to.

[XemaSab]

2. This is truly silly

I guess I better not move to Scotland and run for public office, 'cause I've fired three different guns in my life in two separate outings.

I'm not "pro-gun," but I think everyone should have the experience of firing one. :shrug:

[Kutjara]

3. No, you'd just better not join the SNP if you want to run for office.

It's the Scottish National Party's rule that opposes guns, not the Glasgow City Council's. Just as you can't really be a member of the Green Party if your day job is hunting endangered species, you can't be a member of the SNP if you are perceived to be in favor of guns.

Join the Tories or even Labor and nobody'll bat an eyelid if you happen to like guns.

[SteveM]

36. Yeah, but it sounds so... virginal (nt)

[SteveM]

37. You might like this....

"We cannot but pity the boy who has never fired a gun; he is no more humane, while his education has been sadly neglected." Thoreau

"I've fired three different guns in my life in two separate outings."

A politician's statement about smoking ganja?

[iverglas]

9. do ya think??

Does this mean that no ex-military personnel can join the government in Scotland because they would have fired weapons, or is there an exemption for following orders?

I like that idea: "join the government". I think I'll join the government. I'll go pick out which seat I like in the House of Commons sometime before Parliament resumes in September, and I'll let you know. Or hell, maybe I'd rather have a seat in the Senate. There's more elbow room.

Beats how I always thought it worked. I thought I'd have to get elected. To that end, I'd always thought it wise to join a party and get it to nominate me as the candidate in a particular riding -- better chance of actually getting the seat that way. But of course, I could always just run on my own.


A discussion of this issue as it has arisen in my own party's caucus, in relation to an MP who voted against same-sex marriage rights in the House of Commons:

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=004663&p=

Let us not forget that NDP MP's have bucked the caucus before, and not been suspended, much less expelled from the party.

Name me an NDP MP that has voted against a party policy that was part of the NDP's election platform. You can't.

Getting any clearer now?

You do realize that in a parliamentary democracy, a party - governing or otherwise - may not strip an MP of his/her seat, right? And that this is not what happened in this case, right? You do understand these things, right?

[Tejas]

11. SNP not only hates guns, but promotes secession from the UK

Odd bunch of folks.

[spin]

22. With that view you would think they would be pro-gun. (n/t)

[Tejas]

23. Maybe they figure they're not worth invading LOL! - n/t

[Endangered Specie]

34. haha nice one, isn't the Bloc Quebecois the same way?

anti-gun but wants to seceed...

maybe if they stopped to think for a minute.

[iverglas]

38. "maybe if they stopped to think for a minute."

They'd laugh. A lot.

At all the monkeys in the barrel handing out advice about things regarding which they are utterly clueless ...

[iverglas]

12. in the interests of, like, facts

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article4481373.ece

A millionaire politician was suspended by his party yesterday after photographs were published of him apparently taking his family — including his five-year-old daughter — to fire an AK47 assault rifle at a military-style camp in Pakistan.

... His 17-year-old daughter, Noor, described how she and four of her siblings were driven in a blacked-out vehicle to an alleged training base in mountains near the Kashmir border and encouraged to fire the powerful weapon.

Video footage passed to the Glasgow Evening Times showed Mr Hanif’s youngest daughter, Sana, aged 5 at the time, being helped to fire the gun, the newspaper said. His son Ameer, now 14, also fired the Russian-designed rifle — the weapon of choice for Taleban insurgents in Afghanistan, with a firing rate of 600 rounds a minute — as did his daughters Zainab, 13, and Amina, 10, the paper added.

... His daughter, Noor, who has not seen her father for two years and whose mother is in the middle of divorce proceedings from him, told the paper: “We were taken in a van with blacked-out windows. We were shown how to use the gun. We were shooting into the mountains. We all shot the gun. Someone helped Sana.”

The 17-year-old, who is hoping to study medicine at Cambridge University, added: “I wasn’t happy about it. We didn’t know why we were being taken there. I don’t know who the men were. They weren’t wearing uniform.”

Just a fun family outing in the fresh air, it was.




http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/07/12/i-m-no-slum-landlord-claims-snp-housing-campaigner-jahangir-hanif-86908-20640534/

I'm no slum landlord, claims SNP housing campaigner Jahangir Hanif

Jul 12 2008

A COUNCILLOR who owns a property in one of the worst streets in Glasgow denied yesterday that he was a slum landlord.

The SNP's Jahangir Hanif rents out a two-bedroomed flat to a family of Romanians in Westmoreland Street which is considered so bad that locals have nicknamed it "Ground Zero".

Last week, at a residents' meeting, Hanif promised to bring Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon to the street to show her how bad it is.

He didn't mention he owned a flat there.

[slackmaster]

14. "incident"?!?!?!?!?

:argh:

[iverglas]

15. tell us, slack

If you learned that an elected member of your local government had had his children driven in a car with blacked-out windows to a training camp somewhere in Pakistan where they engaged in shooting AK47s with strange men, how would you be feeling?

Hm?

[slackmaster]

16. A little envious, a little curious, a bit of sympathy that he had to go so far from home to do that

It sounds like a lot of fun, and I'd be wondering what other kinds of weapons he got to try.

I can always drive to Nevada if I feel like shooting automatic weapons.

I don't understand the mentality of anyone making an issue of this. He did something adventurous that was as far as I can tell perfectly legal, and nobody was harmed.

[Howzit]

17. I would expect the emphasis to fall on possible ties to a terrorist organization, not on contact

with weapons.

I guess if the SNP tried to label their member as a Pakistani terrorist there would be outcries of racism. Instead, they want to discipline him for firing a weapon.

[slackmaster]

20. I'll bet it's the tinted car windows

Something you can see any day of the year where I live.

[iverglas]

24. and yet

Nobody involved in the incident said a single damned thing about "tinted car windows".

What was described by the daughter was "a van with blacked-out windows".

Do you ordinarily refer to your sedan with tinted windows as "a van with blacked-out windows"?

Perhaps you would describe where you play with your guns as "a military-style camp". I dunno.

[slackmaster]

25. You got one thing right

I dunno.

Agreed.

What was described by the daughter was "a van with blacked-out windows".

Obviously a vehicle with truly blacked-out windows COULD NOT BE DRIVEN. I often see vehicles with windows that are tinted to the extent that someone outside could not possibly make out the face of the driver in broad daylight. That is legal in most of the USA. It would not surprise me if there are very few or no similarly tinted windows in the UK, so to a person who had never seen one before a description of "blacked-out" would seem reasonable.

Perhaps you would describe where you play with your guns as "a military-style camp".

I think a typical shooting range might very well look like a military camp to someone who had never seen either and had no prior experience with firearms.

:argh:

[iverglas]

26. Uh huh

You think a lot of things, all of which seem to assume that the plain words of another person don't mean what they plainly meant, and that the person speaking them is really very stupid.

Oh, and that there are a lot of really dumb people reading your own.

Quite possibly true, that last.

[slackmaster]

So, you believe that the van's windows were literally blacked out?

:rofl:

Oh, and that there are a lot of really dumb people reading your own.

Quite possibly true, that last.

This from a person who can't understand why she can't seem to engage Jody in a civil conversation.

:eyes:

[iverglas]

30. yup

I read a report by someone who says she was driven to a camp in a remote location in Pakistan in the mountains near the Kashmir border where there were a bunch of men practising with AK47s, and I just don't think it at all unsurprising that the route and destination would have been concealed from the passengers.

I don't think you find it at all unsurprising either.

And I think both of us can easily think of ways that the windows accessible to the passengers in a van could have been blacked out without the driver being unable to see where he was going. Like, the van being fitted out in such a way that the passengers could not see out the windshield.

At least we've established that a young woman from the wilds of Glasgow would really be perfectly familiar with tinted windows though, eh? Glad to have been of assistance.


This from a person who can't understand why she can't seem to engage Jody in a civil conversation.

Oh dear, you seem to have been misled.

I have no difficulty at all understanding why it's impossible to engage jody in civil discourse.

[slackmaster]

31. You have no insight into why you have a "fan club"

Pretty pathetic.

Do they have turnip trucks in Canada?

[tburnsten]

32. Placement of the range makes sense to me

In Canada are all the rifle ranges situated downtown?


I expect they wouldn't be in town in pakistan either.

[iverglas]

33. youse guys is a barrel of monkeys

I see you've heard of turnip trucks!

Why anyone wants so desperately to look like s/he just fell off one, I dunno. Oh, I lie. Of course I know. It just strikes me as, oh, pathetic.

[iverglas]

27. fyi

I know it's an amazement that they even have those horseless carriage things in Scotland ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/tayside_and_central/5019572.stm

Friday, 26 May 2006, 10:50 GMT 11:50 UK

Crackdown on tinted car windows
Police say tinted windows could cause accidents

An increasing trend for young drivers to have tinted windows in their cars is to be targeted in a Tayside Police crackdown over safety concerns.

Officers said excessive tinting on vehicle windows or helmet visors increased the risk of road accidents because of reduced visibility.

They warned that vehicles breaking the law with heavily tinted windows would be taken off the roads.

Police use light meters to measure the amount getting through windows.

And not just in Scotland.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4274352.stm

[slackmaster]

29. Just as I said, you can't drive a vehicle with blacked-out windows

:rofl:

[benEzra]

35. Glasgow latitude, 56 deg N; Belfast, 54 deg N; Edmonton, Alberta 53 deg N;

Karachi, Pakistan, ~25 deg N, same as Miami.

Ever spent much time in Miami? Ever driven a van, with acres of glass, in South Florida in the summer? Particularly one without a highly maintained air conditioning system?

I used to live in Florida. With a minivan. Most everyone (including us) tinted their windows there, and it was primarily not for privacy reasons. It was because of what Browning referred to as "those sunbeams like swords."

At those latitidues, the comfort, safety, and energy efficiency benefits of dark side and rear glass far outweigh any theoretical risks it adds to night driving. And if you are in an area of a Third World country with few A/C mechanics or supplies, and where a couple cans of R-134a to keep a few-years-old system going might cost a couple months' pay, dark tinted windows would probably be pretty desirable.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted sub-thread

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[DU GrovelBot]

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[provis99]

39. A Pakistani Muslim is a member of the Scottish Nationalist Party?

Reminds me of a story I heard of a Pakistani Muslim immigrant in Belgium complaining there were too many immigrants in Belgium.

What next, a Rastafarian member of the British National Party?

[iverglas]

40. lessons are apparently in order

I find the question in your header just weird. Wouldn't know where to start, to address it.

Ethnicity is not determinative of nationality, or membership in a nation.