Concealed Carry responsible citizen shoots and kills family.

[zanne]

In Virginia, Man With Permit to Carry a Concealed Handgun Shoots Wife and Children

If we had a nickel for every time a self-described "law-abiding" gun owner shoots someone, we'd be vying with Donald Trump for who has the larger bank account.

Today we report on a man who had a CCW permit in Virginia - you know one of those "good" gun owners - who shot his wife to death, shot his children to death, and then committed suicide.

A May 6th Fredericksburg, VA, "Freelance-Star," article described the carnage:

A man accused of killing his two small children, their mother and himself Monday night in southern Stafford was heavily armed, police said.

Aaron Poseidon Jackson, 24, was wearing a bulletproof vest and was surrounded by guns and scads of ammunition when police found him dead from an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound Monday night in the Walt Lou Trailer Park off U.S. 1.

Before ending his own life, police said, Jackson took the lives of 23-year-old Lastasha Nicole Thomas and their two children-1½-year-old Aaron Neptune Jackson and 2½-year-old Nicole Aaron Jackson.

All four victims were shot in the head.

Thomas was shot with an AK-47 assault rifle, Sheriff Charles Jett said, while the others were shot with a .38-caliber handgun. (Read more).


http://www.gunguys.com

[Kali]

1. "If we had a nickel...

"If we had a nickel for every time a self-described "law-abiding" gun owner shoots someone, we'd be vying with Donald Trump for who has the larger bank account."


:rofl: Good thing you aren't my accountant.

[maxidivine]

141. Got me rolling! + a gazillion!

[slackmaster]

2. He gets a Darwin Award for taking himself out of the gene pool

It's very sad that he took an innocent woman and children with him.

[rdenney]

43. It very sad that he had the means of easy access to firearms too. n/t

[Mountainman]

3. If we had a nickle for evey law abiding gun owner who doesn't shoot people

we would be vying with Bill Gates.

[mitchleary]

4. So is that what it is

the actions of one person demonstrate how all the rest are?

You read the story about the knife owner who stabbed someone and cut them up? Better confiscate all the knives... then the baseball bats cuz someone was bludgeoned to death with one of those...

Ever hear the name "Richard Speck"? Serial killer that killed 9 or so nurses and did not shoot a one of them. Strangled and stabbed them. What do you say about that?

You know for all the intelligent people on here, why do people blame inanimate objects for killing people?

Someone choked on a piece of meat, better ban it.

Oh and it is another way to LOSE a SHITLOAD of votes.

[slackmaster]

5. I think zanne's reasoning is more along the lines of this:

Since any person can suddenly "snap" and start killing people, issuing concealed carry permits is a bad idea.

I think it would be hard to go through life being so fearful of others. I trust myself, my friends, and my neighbors.

[Beregond2]

7. Exactly.

If I had ever owned a gun, I wouldn't have made it to thirty, and neither would a lot of other people. And I am about as even-tempered a guy as you could meet.

The arguement that you can kill people by strangling, etc. is a stupid one. It takes one second to pull a trigger, and you never have to touch the person. All other methods require a lot more effort and personal interaction. The odds of coming to your senses before you have inflicted death are a lot better.

Human beings need to evolve a lot more before they have the power of instant death at their fingertips.

[slackmaster]

8. I think killing random people with a car is just as easy if not easier

"Accidentally" hit the gas instead of the brake, your arms suddenly decide all by themselves to swerve into a crowd of people. Or let a bad case of road rage propel you into an out-of-control situation.

Human beings need to evolve a lot more before they have the power of instant death at their fingertips.

The horse left the barn almost 700 years ago. Note that the shooter in this case was a very young man. The minimum age to buy a new handgun is 21. If only it had been 25 maybe this incident wouldn't have happened.

:shrug:

[iverglas]

22. AND YET NOBODY DOES IT

How do you explain these things in *your* universe?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

26. A man killed his girlfriend with his car here last month.

I think we live in the same universe.

David

[iverglas]

72. yes, I just knew that would happen -- congratulations

on being the first to take up the challenge -- pretending that a statement that was obviously hyperbole was to be taken literally.

"Nobody does it" -- No! you're wrong! somebody did it!

Fucking duh. Like we all don't know that you can think of the weirdest, wildest, stupidest, evilest thing you can think of, and somebody will have done it.

Congratulations. You found one person who did something that we all know perfectly well someone has done at some time or other.

How many men murdered their intimate partners with firearms that week? Or, more relevantly, during the period between that murder and the next time one intentionally killed his intimate partner with a motor vehicle ... care to guess at what the ratio might be?

Nobody does it any more than anybody eats poop. Somewhere, sometime, somebody has done it.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

91. I guess you shouldn't have said "Nobody Does It" then.

I don't believe you meant that as hyperbole either.

David

[iverglas]

94. no, what I shouldn't do

is assume that at any given point my posts are being read exclusively by rational people of goodwill.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

97. or that.

[maxidivine]

144. ""Nobody does it" -- No! you're wrong! somebody did it!"

Sounds like you with your little AK thread.

"Fucking duh. Like we all don't know that you can think of the weirdest, wildest, stupidest, evilest thing you can think of, and somebody will have done it."

Like pull up a variety of rare events, misrepresent them to make a statement, and then when called on it claim "that's not what I said! That's not what I said!"

Let's see what your reaction to this is going to be...

[bossy22]

30. you are wrong litter box breath

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3382644

cars often get used as deadly weapons....hey in america they have there own catagory- aggravaed vehicular assault or homicide

[slackmaster]

57. Actually, it happens all the time

Google up statistics for highway "accidents" that are attributed to road rage.

How do you explain these things in *your* universe?

I live in a mostly objective universe. You should try it some time.

http://www.drivers.com/article/169/

http://www.expertlaw.com/library/car-accidents/driver-error.html#6

http://mutiny.wordpress.com/2007/02/19/road-accidents-in-india-caused-mostly-by-human-error/

http://www.esurance.com/safe_auto_insurance/roadrage.asp

http://www.drdriving.org/articles/

http://www.aaafoundation.org/resources/index.cfm?button=agdrtext

[iverglas]

75. I'll be waiting

for the list of 10,000 such homicides in the past year that would make this problem comparable to firearms homicide.

Hell, 1,000 would do. Even before we start examining other factors to ensure comparability of data.

If you can find any study at all in the US that even bothers to count such homicides, you'll be doing better than I have. All I can find is the single-digit figure for "all other" weapons used in homicides ...

[slackmaster]

106. Man gets life term in crash killing 10

PHOENIX - A man who crashed an overloaded sport utility vehicle, killing 10 illegal immigrants while fleeing Border Partrol agents, has been sentenced to life in federal prison...

AP story from print edition of today's San Diego Union-Tribune

Online link to NBC version: http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/15966183/detail.html

[rdenney]

159. How typical! Must...change....gun-murder story..use standard NRA issued vehicle crash..obfuscation

story....even..if it involves..illegal immigrants...running from...immigration authorities....must not admit..blame on holy firearms..to bloodbaths and....needless deaths...what would prophet....Chuck Heston... have me... do? Must keep blaming ....anything but..holy guns..for glorious...armed bloodshed.

[slackmaster]

163. Do try to follow the thread, rdenney

I see you are back into your old habit of misusing the ellipsis.

[rdenney]

169. Just my way of making a point to the unaware of how you gun-owners think. Obfuscation is what you...

you yourselves are best at in defending the indefensible, and I just like to point it out when you do, slackmaster.

[slackmaster]

107. Convicted in fatal crash as a teen, now facing DUI charge

A former Washington High School student convicted in a well-documented 1996 crash that killed a 15-year-old girl was arrested Wednesday on drunken-driving charges.

Crawford Cleveland III, 28, was arrested at 6:21 p.m. after authorities responded to a hit-and-run traffic crash near the Gulf Beach Highway and Bay Meadow Drive intersection....

I guess our car laws are too lax.

http://www.pnj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080509/NEWS01/80509019

[slackmaster]

108. Fatal crash just the latest trouble for parolee

John Licausi should not have been driving at all, let alone driving while high on drugs, law enforcement officials said of the man charged with leading Suffolk police on a high-speed chase that ended in a crash and the death of a father of three.

Licausi, of Riverhead, was on parole for burglary and forgery, and was in apparent violation of his parole, officials said Friday. At the time of the crash Thursday, he was not supposed to be driving and was enrolled in an alcohol and substance abuse treatment program. Indeed, a warrant was issued for Licausi's arrest on May 6 - two days before the crash - on a charge of petit larceny.

It wasn't the only time in recent weeks Licausi, 48, was in trouble with the law. On April 19, a Suffolk landscaper gave police a written statement saying Licausi had broken into a work trailer and stolen two leaf blowers, court records show. Licausi had also allegedly broken into a Smithtown deli and stolen a meat slicer, the records show. Friday, the day after his arrest after the crash, parole officers issued a warrant for his arrest....

Another repeat car offender. Easy access to cars kills innocent people!

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/suffolk/ny-licras105681088may10,0,3203317.story

[slackmaster]

109. Man gets 3 years for causing fatal crash

OOOOH! This one's from Canada!

Evidence he was drunk: judge
By DEAN PRITCHARD, SUN MEDIA

Jerry Laramee was never charged with impaired driving for an early morning crash that killed 24-year-old Melanie Friesen, but there is ample evidence to prove he had been drinking, a court heard yesterday.

"In my view, there is compelling and uncontroverted evidence that Mr. Laramee was intoxicated at the time," said Justice Deborah McCawley before sentencing the 40-year-old carpenter to three years in prison.

A sentencing hearing was adjourned last month following a dispute over whether Laramee had been drinking prior to the July 27, 2004, collision....

How could the Canadian justice system have let this guy slip through the cracks?

[slackmaster]

110. Court: Man convicted in fatal N.M. crash won't get new trial

ALBUQUERQUE—A federal appeals court has upheld the conviction of a New Mexico man in a drunken-driving crash that killed a mother and her three young daughters on Christmas Eve in 1992.
The 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver on Tuesday rejected an appeal by Gordon House of Thoreau, who contended he was being held in prison in violation of his constitutional rights.

House, who is Navajo and Oneida, was convicted in 1995 of four counts of vehicular homicide and other charges in a head-on collision while he was driving a pickup truck the wrong way on Interstate 40 west of Albuquerque.

House admitted to drinking more than seven beers that day but had said a migraine caused him to become disoriented and drive the wrong direction, colliding with a car. He is serving a 22-year prison sentence....

Sounds like a Twinkie defense.

http://www.lcsun-news.com/ci_9179990

[slackmaster]

111. Beverly officer to get a new trial in fatal crash

Even cops can't be trusted with cars!

A Beverly police officer will get a new trial on charges that he slammed his cruiser into a parked car last year, killing a 61-year-old woman.

Stuart Merry, 41, who was convicted in March of motor vehicle homicide by negligent operation in the crash that killed Bonney Burns, asked for a new trial after prosecutors uncovered additional evidence in the case. A Peabody District Court judge today granted Merry’s request.

“The judge ruled that a jury had the right to see that evidence ... and we’re fully prepared to retry the case,” said Jake Wark, a spokesman for the Suffolk district attorney’s office.

Wark said prosecutors had become aware of an opinion held by a member of the State Police crash analysis team on the origin of a crack in Merry's windshield. They hadn't known of the officer's opinion before. Wark didn't immediately disclose any further details....

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2008/05/beverly_officer_1.html

[slackmaster]

112. Report: Motorcyclist going 90 mph in fatal crash

Some would call this an "accident".

A Queen Creek man killed in Gilbert late last year while fleeing Maricopa County sheriff’s deputies on a motorcycle was riding at nearly twice the speed limit and smashed into oncoming traffic, police records released this week show.

Dennis Hester, 20, died Nov. 27 at Power and Williams Field roads.

He slammed into a car while trying to pass two vehicles, records show. The impact threw him into another vehicle, and his body came to rest more than 100 feet away from the initial impact.

Hester’s arm was severed during the crash. Despite the efforts of two witnesses who gave him CPR, he died at the scene....

Why was this repeat offender given easy access to a motorcycle?

[slackmaster]

113. Man convicted in fatal motorcycle crash

CHARLEVOIX -- A Bellaire man awaits sentencing after an Antrim County jury convicted him of driving drunk and killing a motorcyclist.

Russell Steven Mitchell, 19, will be sentenced by 13th Circuit Court Judge Thomas Power on May 12 in Bellaire, following his jury trial conviction for operating a vehicle under the influence and causing the death of Eric Deane Perrine, of Charlevoix, on Aug. 18.

He faces up to 15 years in prison for the felony. Mitchell was found not guilty of negligent homicide....

Car violence IS a real problem!

http://www.record-eagle.com/local/local_story_122094627.html

[slackmaster]

114. Jury: Dad was driving in fatal crash

BEAUMONT - A Lumberton man convicted in a drunken driving death who tried to blame the crime on his daughter received eight years' probation Monday.
Jeffrey Matherly, 49, was convicted last week of intoxication manslaughter in the July 2, 2006, drunk driving death of 23-year-old Brockman Glen Latta. Matherly faced up to 20 years in prison.

DNA tests could determine driver in intoxication manslaughter case

Criminal District Court Judge John Stevens will sentence Matherly next month after a background report is prepared to determine Matherly's probation program. He also will serve at least 120 days in the county correctional facility....

Another repeat offender who had easy access to cars.

http://www.southeasttexaslive.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19663342&BRD=2287&PAG=461&dept_id=512588&rfi=6

[slackmaster]

115. Teen charged in fatal crash

GRAND RAPIDS -- The driver accused of causing a crash in Jupiter, Fla., that killed Violet Wondergem, a longtime Grand Rapids arts supporter, was charged with vehicular homicide, police there said Monday.

The March 7 crash left her husband, Casey Wondergem, hospitalized for several days.

Their son, Tim Wondergem, said drivers need to be held accountable for their actions, and his family supported the charges in an effort for justice....

Kids and cars - A deadly combination.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ssf?/base/news-41/1210079775191930.xml&coll=6

[slackmaster]

116. Opening statements heard in fatal 2006 crash

ANCHORAGE, Alaska -- A 27-year-old man is accused of driving drunk, fleeing from police and causing a crash that left another man dead.

The trial for Adam Milazzo, charged with second degree murder, got underway in Anchorage Wednesday.

Arguments in the case are less about the facts and more about what was going through Milazzo's mind the night prosecutors say he drove recklessly down a main street in Anchorage and caused a crash that killed a man on his way home from work.

"You're going to hear that Mr. Milazzo had a .19 blood alcohol content," prosecutor Dan Shorey said. "The legal limit, you will learn, is .08."...

http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=8287680

[slackmaster]

117. Repeat drunken driver sent to prison for fatal crash

A Seattle woman suspected of driving drunk and killing an 18-year-old woman in a crash on Interstate 5 was sentenced to 6 1/2 years in prison for vehicular homicide Friday.

Cerissa R. Christensen, 27, of Seattle had been on probation for a prior DUI at the time of the accident last October.

Christensen's GMC Yukon was going the wrong way -- speeding south in the northbound lanes of I-5 near Interstate 90 -- when a state trooper tried to stop her.

Minutes later, the Yukon slammed head-on into a pickup driven by Eric Hillstrom, 19, of Tacoma. He was injured and his girlfriend, Bawny McQuistin, 18, of Tacoma, was killed....

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/360679_manslaughter26.html

[slackmaster]

118. Driver in Fatal Crash a New Acquaintance

Mother, 2 Daughters Killed Riding With Man Who Had Several Traffic Violations

Flowers and a teddy bear mark the scene of a crash Tuesday off Route 1 between Gatewood Drive and Patuxent Range Road in Jessup.
When a Laurel woman and her three daughters piled into Andrew Ray Sturgill's car one morning this week, they had known him only a few days. A drywall worker, he had a habit of bouncing from one relative's house to another, and he was new to the area.

Back in Indiana, a cousin said, Sturgill, 31, was known as a driver who would mess with the radio and pay attention to everything except the road. Court records show that in recent years he was convicted of several traffic violations, including speeding, in Virginia.

Relatives said he arrived in the Washington region two weeks ago to visit family in Baltimore and collect from a life insurance policy. That's how he met and befriended Stephanie Ann Dorsey, 24....

Yet another repeat car offender.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/23/AR2008042303604.html?hpid=sec-metro

[slackmaster]

119. Doctor jailed in fatal crash

He could serve as little as 1 year in deal with family of victim of DUI

A former Johns Hopkins Hospital pathologist could serve as little as one year in prison for his role in a head-on crash on the Jones Falls Expressway that left a 22-year-old woman with injuries that later killed her.

Dr. Todd B. Sheridan, 32, was sentenced yesterday after pleading guilty in January to automobile manslaughter and driving under the influence of alcohol when he crashed into Letrice Nicole Smith's car while driving the wrong way on the expressway in the early hours of July 8, 2006.

Before the sentence was imposed, the doctor, tears running down his face, begged for the Smith family's forgiveness.

"I'm so sorry that this ever happened," he said, turning from the defense table to the rows of Smith's equally tearful relatives behind him. "If I could put myself in her place, I would do it in a second."...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_city/bal-md.ci.sheridan22apr22,0,5116753.story

[slackmaster]

120. State to pay $850,000 for fatal crash involving convict

The state Department of Corrections will pay $850,000 to settle a case claiming the agency failed to closely supervise an offender who killed a woman in a drunken driving accident while under the department's watch. The case led to changes in the agency's practices, said Maria Peterson, a spokeswoman for the corrections department.

Gloria Daquep, 55, was killed in 2004 when a car driven by Charles Roberson III collided head on with her vehicle on Martin Luther King Jr. Way South. Roberson had a blood-alcohol level of 0.16 percent, twice the legal limit for driving.

At the time, Roberson, 33, was under a low level of supervision by the corrections department after a misdemeanor drug conviction.

However, he has a long record of drunken driving, illegal possession of drugs and weapons, and vehicular assault. He should have been under a maximum amount of supervision, attorneys for the family argued....

I can't see any possible justification for letting a known repeat offender have access to a car. And this time the state sanctioned it!

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/359115_crash16.html?source=mypi

[slackmaster]

121. Man Sentenced To Prison For Fatal Crash

OMAHA, Neb. -- A man convicted of his role in a fatal crash on Highway 275 last summer was sentenced on Friday.

Joshua Zazueta, 19, was escorted from court after getting a five-year prison sentence for motor vehicle homicide. Prosecutors said Zazueta was driving 112 mph when he crashed head-on into a car driven by John Peterson, 76, of Valley.

Peterson was killed. His 15-year-old grandson, who was riding with him, survived....

Real people, really killed by people who criminally misused cars.

http://www.ketv.com/newsarchive/16139509/detail.html

[slackmaster]

122. Man sentenced in last summer's double fatal crash

BATAVIA - Brian Vance will serve five years for the crash that killed Amanda Pille of Union Township and Rachael Reed of Miami Township last year.

Vance, Ronlee Drive in Miami Township, was convicted of two counts of aggravated vehicular homicide for the July 7 crash.

Clermont County Court of Common Pleas Judge Victor Haddad sentenced Vance to five years for each count, but specified they be served at the same time.

Vance also will have his license suspended for 25 years and will pay a $5,000 fine.

More kids with easy access to cars.

http://news.communitypress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080501/NEWS01/805010491/1078/RSS10

[slackmaster]

123. Driver had history with drugs

Physician charged in fatal crash; complaint says he had taken prescription pills
By MIKE JOHNSON and AMY RINARD
[e-mail]
Posted: April 28, 2008

Waukesha - A former physician charged Monday with homicide in the deaths of a pregnant school administrator and her daughter in a traffic crash has a history of drug and alcohol convictions and was under the influence of three drugs when his SUV slammed into the woman's stopped car, according to court records.

Mark M. Benson, 55, enters a Waukesha County courtroom Monday where he was charged in the deaths of a pregnant school administrator and her daughter. Bail for Benson, who has a history of substance abuse, was set at $1 million.

In support of their late administrator, more than 50 students from Oconomowoc High School were excused from classes Monday so they could witness Mark M. Benson's initial appearance in court.

Visitation and funeral services for 10-year-old Courtney Bella will be held in conjunction with the ceremonies for her mother and unborn half-sister that were announced Sunday, Pagenkopf Funeral Home officials said. Visitation for students and their parents is from 4 to 7 p.m. Wednesday at Pagenkopf Funeral Home, 1165 Summit Ave. Visitation for friends and family is planned from 2 to 7 p.m. Thursday at the funeral home. The funeral service is at 10 a.m. Friday at St. Jerome's Catholic Church, 211 S. Main St. The families suggest donations in lieu of flowers to Mothers Against Drunk Driving, P.O. Box 51159, Milwaukee, WI 53203....

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=744613

[slackmaster]

124. Driver of snowmobile in fatal crash pleads not guilty

Driver of snowmobile in fatal crash pleads not guilty
Authorities say man was drunk in wreck that killed Randy Salerno

Scott Hirschey, charged in the Jan. 24 death of Chicago television newsman Randy Salerno, pleaded not guilty Thursday in Wisconsin. Hirschey was charged with homicide by intoxicated use of a vehicle after he allegedly crashed a snowmobile on which Salerno, an anchor for WBBM-Ch. 2, was riding.

The two had been on a winter getaway in northern Wisconsin.

Authorities said Hirschey, 44, of Crystal Lake had a blood-alcohol level more than twice the state's legal threshold of 0.08 percent when he drove a , one-person snowmobile into an embankment, flew 46 feet through the air and smashed into a pine tree....

Car, snowmobile, what difference does it make? All vehicles are deadly in the hands of criminals.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-salerno-plea-both_18apr18,1,6415940.story

[slackmaster]

125. Little Egg Harbor high school student, 17, charged in fatal crash

TOMS RIVER - Pinelands Regional High School senior Danielle Manzoni, 17, of Little Egg Harbor Township, has been charged with vehicular homicide in the Nov. 16 parkway crash that killed her friend Amanda Policastro.
Lisa Grabowski, Policastro's mother, said she was pleased.

"But this is just the tip of the iceberg in the judicial process. We have a long way to go," Grabowski said.

The charges were filed Wednesday and announced Friday, Ocean County Prosecutor Marlene Lynch Ford said. Manzoni is being charged as a juvenile, according to the prosecutor. She was arrested Wednesday and later released into the custody of her parents.

Manzoni appeared in court Wednesday with her attorney Steve Secare and entered a plea of not guilty. No further court dates have been set....

Kids and cars...

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/185/story/148875.html

[slackmaster]

126. DA adds felony DUI charge in fatal crash

FREMONT — Prosecutors have tacked on an additional felony charge to a complaint that already alleges that a 22-year-old woman drove drunk last weekend and caused a crash that killed a 33-year-old mother of three.

In addition to gross vehicular manslaughter, Fremont resident Teresa Ann Martinez now faces a felony count of driving a vehicle while under the influence of alcohol. Authorities have not released the results of the test because they are awaiting the results of a more conclusive blood test.

Prosecutors originally charged her with a single count of vehicular manslaughter because it includes an element of DUI, but on Thursday added the other charge because it carries a stiffer sentence should Martinez be convicted.

Martinez was arrested early Saturday after police said she drove the wrong way on southbound Interstate 680 and caused a two-vehicle crash near the North Mission Boulevard exit....

Where is the outrage?

http://www.insidebayarea.com/argus/localnews/ci_9124483

[slackmaster]

127. Dump truck driver facing charges from fatal crash

The driver of a dump truck involved in a fatal accident July 17 in Louisa County has been indicted on involuntary manslaughter charges.

Jerome J. Booker Jr., 38, was charged with three felony counts of involuntary manslaughter and one misdemeanor count of reckless driving in indictments handed down in March by a grand jury. Thomas A. Garrett Jr., Louisa commonwealth’s attorney, said Thursday that Booker is scheduled for a jury trial in August.
According to the Virginia State Police, Booker was driving a dump truck July 17 north on U.S. 15. The dump truck swerved to avoid a pickup stopped to make a turn, police said, but hit a 1994 GMC van head-on in the southbound lane.

Keezletown residents Gary Allan Dovel, 51, and Martha Street Dovel, 50, were in the front seats of the van, authorities said. They were pronounced dead at the scene.
Police said their son, 19-year-old Scott Frederick Dovel, and his girlfriend, 17-year-old Brielle Nicole Nelson, also were in the van. Both were taken to the University of Virginia Medical Center, where Nelson died the next day.

Authorities said everyone in the van was wearing seat belts.
Julie Paul, one of the Dovels’ children, declined to comment Thursday on Booker’s indictments....

Keezletown?

http://www.dailyprogress.com/cdp/news/local/louisa/article/dump_truck_driver_facing_charges_from_fatal_crash/21248/

[slackmaster]

128. Parents criticise fatal crash extradition ruling

They let this bastard off with a fine!

The parents of a Carlisle teenager killed in a motorcycle crash in Greece have reacted furiously after the man convicted over the death paid a fine to avoid extradition.
Pillion passenger Jonathan Trueman, 18, from Carlisle, was killed in an accident on the Greek island of Zakynthos in 1997.

Paul Pettinger, from Banbury, Oxfordshire, who was 25 at the time of the accident, was convicted in a Greek court in 2001 oADVERTISEMENTf negligent manslaughter and abandoning a victim.

He failed to return for the trial and under Greek law was able to pay a fine as an alternative punishment....

http://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/latest-north-west-news/Parents-criticise-fatal-crash-extradition.3980568.jp

[iverglas]

135. I don't actually plan to read the whole list

For one thing, I expect many of them will look like this:

Pillion passenger Jonathan Trueman ... was killed in an accident ....

Paul Pettinger ... who was 25 at the time of the accident, was convicted ... of negligent manslaughter ... .

Now, I would think it plain to a garden slug that this is an apple in a basket of oranges.

Was someone talking about accidents and negligent manslaughter?

Not moi, but chatter among yourself if you like.

[iverglas]

136. just to help you out a bit

This is the topic:

slackmaster
Fri May-09-08 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I think killing random people with a car is just as easy if not easier

"Accidentally" hit the gas instead of the brake, your arms suddenly decide all by themselves to swerve into a crowd of people. Or let a bad case of road rage propel you into an out-of-control situation.



I thought it rather obvious that your use of quotation marks around the word "accidentally", your plainly sarcastic reference to someone's arms doing something all by themselves, and your reference to road rage indicated that you were aware that accidents and negligent manslaughter were not the topic of discussion.

[slackmaster]

137. People who die from negligent manslaughter are just as dead as people who are willfully murdered

And not all "negligent manslaughter" is the result of bona fide negligence.

Someone who willfully gets drunk, drives, and kills someone has not committed a genuine act of negligence. It's way beyond a failure to exercise reasonable care.

[iverglas]

139. I'm really sure you're too smart to play this game

and think you can get away with it, anyhow.

[slackmaster]

131. BTW - A comment on how statistics for fatal and non-fatal injuries are reported

Nearly all vehicle-related injuries and deaths are classified in government reports as "Transportation-Related" regardless of what events led up to them, or the state of mind of the driver or drivers who caused the incident. The term "accident" in common usage covers a whole range of things from truly unintenced mishaps through cases in which someone in a state of rage speeds recklessly into a fatal crash, or when someone who has lost the capacity to drive safely does so anyway resulting in injuries or deaths.

Firearm-related deaths are always called homicides even when the shooter merely intended to cause injury, or when the shooter was brandishing a weapon and unintentionally fired it.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars/

[dmiller]

175. Fatal Injuries

They have a category called justifiable homicide as well.

[rdenney]

191. They dont nor do they care. As long as they have their guns nothing matters. nt

[maxidivine]

192. Got another post to answer Rdenney

And yes, I will not be giving up my guns any time in the foreseeable future.

[maxidivine]

142. "I am about as even-tempered a guy as you could meet."

No you aren't. If you wouldn't have made it to thirty just because of owning a gun, then you can not try to claim in the next sentence that you are anything approaching even-tempered.

If even-tempered people were likely to shoot at others just because they have a tool which can emit projectiles, than the murder rate in the U.S. would be astronomically high, especially at gun ranges and NRA meetings. But it isn't. Maybe that is because there are a hundred million gun owners in America and almost all of them are actually even-tempered and understand the potential for harm if their guns are misused.

If you don't think people should have the "power of instant death" at their fingertips than maybe you should go to a range and rent a gun sometime, see what your groups look like. You will understand that shooting is a very focused exercise, and not particularly easy. It's basically yoga with a loud boom.

[dmiller]

152. Ludicrous

Death from a well placed blow from a bat or other blunt weapon or knife can be and has been just as fast so your argument is ludicrous. On many occasions a firearm in the custody of a citizen seeking to protect themselves and family has resulted in causing the bad guy to change his mind as well. It happens often but it is rarely covered by the media. Many times the mere sight of a weapon has caused a miscreant to run away. That is always the best outcome but sometimes it becomes necessary to stop them with force. Some of us are born to be victims and some are not. I do not intend to be a victim of some social experiment that gives people I don't know and who don't know me the power to decide if I have the right to defend my own life or that of my family, I will not live under that yoke. In short I don't live in a gated community with armed guards or a private police force. If you truly believe you are better off unarmed, safe and no harm can come to you as a result of not owning
a firearm it is ok by me. However, I invite you to post a sign in front of your house stating that there are no weapons in your house, because "Human beings need to evolve a lot more before they have the power of instant death at their fingertips". The outcome will not be pleasant I can assure you.

[TPaine7]

36. Where is the courage of her convictions?

Why didn't she express this "reasoning" directly?

I think some people on here always make their "points" obliquely because they know they are too weak for even casual scrutiny.

[TomInTib]

6. It's those "car" nuts who scare the Hell outta me.

No telling how many people they kill every year.

[zanne]

9. So that's why you have to carry a gun!

To shoot at those devious cars!

[slackmaster]

11. I've concluded that zanne is incapable of carrying on a rational discussion in this forum

:shrug:

[TomInTib]

16. I think that was some humor on zanne's part.

Meanwhile, I am taking no chances.

[pipoman]

29. Yea, you're probably right, she is known for her humor in these parts...n/t

[zanne]

32. Aw shucks. You make a girl blush. nt

[maxidivine]

145. +5

[mitchleary]

38. Are you for real?

Read that response again. WTF?

[slackmaster]

10. Your thinking is realistic on that

Statistically, most of us are about 100 times more likely to be injured or killed in transportation-related injuries than we are to get shot.

Over the course of a lifetime, far more people die of heart disease or cancer or stroke or respiratory disease than by unintentional injury (including motor vehicle accidents and the very rare fatal firearm accidents).

Homicide and suicide by ANY means (including firearms) aren't even in the top 10 leading causes of death.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/WISQARS/

[iverglas]

20. it must be awful to live in such fear

I suppose that's why people feel they must festoon themselves in firearms before setting foot out the front door ... there could be a car nut just waiting to run them down or run them over, eh?

My, homicide by motor vehicle must be one of the leading causes of death in the US!


History is interesting.

http://iier.isciii.es/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00023655.htm

Deaths Resulting from Firearm- and Motor-Vehicle-Related Injuries - - United States, 1968-1991

Injury is the leading cause of death for persons aged 1-44 years in the United States. More than half (55%) of all injury-related deaths are caused by motor vehicles and firearms. Although the number of deaths from motor-vehicle crashes has exceeded those from firearms, since 1968, differences in the number of deaths have declined: from 1968 through 1991, motor-vehicle- related deaths decreased by 21% (from 54,862 to 43,536) while firearm-related deaths increased by 60% (from 23,875 to 38,317). Based on these trends, by the year 2003, the number of firearm-related deaths will surpass the number of motor-vehicle crashes, and firearms will become the leading cause of injury-related death.

I wonder?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year

2006 motor vehicle-related deaths in the US: 42,642

... Well, I'm not seeing up to date stats; this for 2000 for firearms-related deaths: 28,663.


So, are there 15,000 homicides by motor vehicle a year? We aren't talking negligence here; we're talking genuine, intentional / in the course of a crime homicide.

Just what are the odds of somebody trying to kill you with a car?

It's so fucking EASY you would really think there would be husbands killing wives and muggers killing old ladies by running them down and running them over, multiple times a day, wouldn't you??


I wonder whether some people have any clue how utterly moronic they are in the habit of making themsleves look.

[TomInTib]

24. "Fear" doesn't even enter the picture.

Actually, I see the whole thing as one big goddamned joke.

Kinda like Life.

Most of us spend waaay too much time worrying about inconsequential chaff.

Worry too much, you'll never even see the bus that runs you over.

Tom

[dmiller]

153. Moronic

You forgot to mention there was a substantial popultion increase, and that many of these are gang on gang member deaths,which would happen no matter what.

"I wonder whether some people have any clue how utterly moronic they are in the habit of making themsleves look."

[iverglas]

155. you said it

You forgot to mention there was a substantial popultion increase

If you're referring to the earlier period mentioned in my post, I guess that substantial population increase would explain the HUGE DECREASE in motor vehicle deaths.

Maybe you're forgetting to mention the substantial increase in the number of vehicles on the road throughout the period, which doesn't seem to have been reflected in any increase in motor vehicle deaths.

Who knows, eh?

many of these are gang on gang member deaths,which would happen no matter what.

Yes, that's a fine and silly theory.

But you forgot to mention how those deaths don't matter anyhow. Nobody actually cares about African-American youths killing one another, right?

[dmiller]

160. Auto

"If you're referring to the earlier period mentioned in my post, I guess that substantial population increase would explain the HUGE DECREASE in motor vehicle deaths".

Maybe better built cars drivers ed and seatbelts have something to do with it.

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

170. one more for the ages

And by the way, have you ever MET any gang members before? if they kill each other off, good riddance, nothing good comes from them, they do nothing but kill each other, terrorize the honest people in their communities, spread highly addicitive life-destroying drugs, get convicted of crimes, go to jail for a while, and are EVEN WORSE after they get out!

It's in their genes.


You are a jackass.

Must be something in yours too. Ya just don't seem to have that impulse-control allele.

[dmiller]

162. Gangs

many of these are gang on gang member deaths,which would happen no matter what.

Yes, that's a fine and silly theory.

But you forgot to mention how those deaths don't matter anyhow. Nobody actually cares about African-American youths killing one another, right?

Do you really believe that if gangs didn't have guns they would all get together and sing songs around the campfire? Fact: Some gangs have resorted to using baseball bats because it doesn't carry as much time.



"Nobody actually cares about African-American youths killing one another, right?"
Now that's a fine and silly theory.

Who doesn't care? You? Since when are all gangs black or all youths any way?

Where have you been?

[iverglas]

171. me?

Do you really believe that if gangs didn't have guns they would all get together and sing songs around the campfire?

Do I really believe that, as compared to was I just pretending to believe that?

Where did I pretend to believe that?

Maybe you believe it, and you've got us mixed up.

Ew.

[dmiller]

178. You!

Double talk to evade a counter point does not impress me.

[gorfle]

12. Virginia CCW statistics

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/4.2/GunFacts4-2-Screen.pdf

From October 1997 through January 1999, Virginia issued 50,000 CCW permits with zero revocations.

Fact: People with concealed
carry permits are:

• 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public
• 13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the general public

In 2007, 44,000 people applied for CCW permits in Virginia.

Currently 2.11% of adults in Virginia have CCW permits.

If you had a nickel for every CCW permit holder who committed a crime, you probably couldn't buy a Happy Meal at McDonald's

[iverglas]

13. If that doesn't just beat all

A mass murder.

Committed by a holder of a concealed firearm permit.

Committed, in part, with an AK-47 RIFLE
(and if it turns out not to have been a genuine AK-47, it sure as hell would still be a rifle).


Just another one of the tales of women and children killed by the men who claim to love them ... who very commonly kill themselves, hence the need for a firearm to finish the entire job neatly and not get caught before it's done.

[maxidivine]

146. This is what you mean

"Just another one of the tales of women and children killed by the men who claim to love them ... who very commonly kill themselves, hence the need for men to be eliminated from my magic dreamland"


Isn't it?

[iverglas]

14. more

http://www.insidenova.com/isn/news/crime/article/alleged_girlfriend_speaks_out_about_murder/15015/

Price (girlfriend) said she spent the past weekend with Jackson. She said the two stayed in a hotel on U.S. 17 in south Stafford, drank and snorted more than two grams of cocaine.

... According to a sheriff’s report, the department seized a number of guns from the home, including handguns, rifles and a machete, as well as multiple knives.

“He carries a gun with a holster underneath him, but he has a concealed-weapons permit,” Price said.

Price said Jackson always felt the need to protect himself in case he was ever attacked in public.

And so he should! Eh?

He may have been a violent drug and alcohol abuser, but he was damn well entitled to protect himself if he was ever attacked in public.

Price said Jackson had been drinking that day and that the last thing he told her was that he was going to jail by the end of the night.

Guess that seemed like a bad idea after all.

[slackmaster]

58. So he was a known violent criminal after all

Just one who had managed to avoid getting convicted of anything.

[bbinacan]

15. What does a CCW permit have

to do with this? He could have done it without a CCW. Does a CCW allow one to carry a concealed AK-47?

[slackmaster]

61. Nothing - this is a Domestic Violence case that slipped through the cracks

See the source article at http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2008/052008/05062008/0506st1/

The victim could probably have gotten a DV restraining order based on the perpetrator's past activity. That would have made it illegal for him to have any kind of firearm in his possession. It kind of looks like law enforcement people weren't doing the best possible job either.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

17. Wow you finally found one.

After two years here posting about criminals shooting people, you finally found a criminal (see cocaine) who got a concealed carry permit, undoubtedly lying on his application committing a felony, who went on a cocaine binge and shot his family. Then you decide to exploit this tragedy to make a political point. Congratulations you are today's worst person in the world to quote KO. That's the last time I listen to one of you hypocrites tell us that we are exploiting people.


David

[russ1943]

41. There's been many others

If by "Wow you finally found one" you are implying there haven't been any CCW holders before this one who have committed serious felonies including murders, you are kidding right?

The folks who favored the issuance of must issue concealed licenses are the ones who have been saying that CCW license holders are upstanding citizens who hardly ever commit serious crimes.

First the fact that they are thoroughly screened in the licensing process should mean that they seldom commit serious crimes a given. But to say "Wow you finally found one" ignores the fact that there are CCW holders routinely committing serious crimes.

Some incidents from when the legislation was still being discussed;

On July 6, 2001, an unnamed man fatally shot 17-year-old Jacob W. Walton during a road rage altercation in Spokane, WA. Walton was a passenger in a car that got into an altercation with the shooter. According to police, the shooter had a concealed-weapons permit.

During the summer of 2000, Austin, TX, taxi driver Wayne Franklin Lambert Jr. shot and killed two unarmed men, both high-tech professionals, who had been his passengers. According to police, Lambert, a gun enthusiast with a Texas concealed-handgun license shot one of the men three times in the back. The other victim gave a deathbed statement, saying that the taxi driver became angry over something his friend had said and challenged him to a fight. Other cab drivers gave police sworn statements saying Lambert was "very short-tempered" and "always angry at just about everything." One cab driver claimed Lambert once said, "I would shoot someone over a dollar." According to state records, Lambert was charged with assault after beating, choking and threatening to kill another taxi driver in August 1994. Lambert was charged with capital murder, representing the second multiple murder case brought against a Texas concealed-gun licensee in the last three years

On May 30, 2000, a fistfight turned into a gun battle outside the home of Dale Cramm, 44, of Everett, WA, resulting in the death of two teens. Cramm's son was later charged in the deaths, and Cramm himself was charged with witness tampering, tampering with physical evidence, and three drug-related felonies. Police also confiscated an arsenal of weapons, including five shotguns, three SKS assault rifles, 3 other rifles, bayonets and high-capacity magazines. Within days after the weapons were confiscated, Cramm, who was out on bail, allegedly went to a local gun show and purchased more firearms. According to police, Cramm used his CCW permit as identification to purchase guns at the gun show.

On January 27, 2000, Louis Mockewich, 34, of Philadelphia, PA, shot and killed a neighbor who was shoveling snow behind his rowhouse. The two neighbors had been arguing over where the victim was placing the snow, and Mockewich's solution was to pull out his gun, for which he had a CCW permit, and kill the 31-year-old man. The victim, too had a CCW permit.

In early December of 1999, William Manies, 52, of Fountain City, TN, returned to his former office to avenge the 45-year-old woman who fired him a month before. Manies, a CCW permit holder, walked into the office and pointed a .38-caliber pistol at the victim and executed her while she sat in her chair, talking on the telephone. Manies's wife, who also worked for the firm was present when her husband killed the co-worker
On November 8, 1999, Shirley Henson, 40 of Alabaster, AL, ended a battle for position in heavy rush-hour traffic by pulling out her .38 revolver and shooting the 34-year-old woman with whom she had played cat-and-mouse on I-65. The two women cut each other off, tailgated, lane-changed, and slammed on brakes for about 4 miles along the southbound highway from Birmingham, until they both exited. As the victim, who was on her way to pick up her 4-year-old daughter, got out and approached Henson's vehicle. Henson reached into the console, pulled out the gun for which she had a CCW permit, rolled down her window, and shot the woman in the face, killing her. Henson was later convicted of manslaughter.

In August 1999, James H. Miller, 53, of Bald Knob, AR, a permit holder, was convicted of manslaughter in the shooting death of Charles Starks Jr., 31, of Georgetown. Miller shot Starks and Starks' father, Charles Starks Sr., also of Georgetown, in their chests during a confrontation in a parking lot of a convenience store Nov. 25, 1998. Miller's weapon was not one of several for which he had a concealed-handgun license. He maintained during the trial that he acted in self-defense out of fear of being beaten. The elder Starks said he and his son were angry because Miller had accused them of trespassing. The prosecutor argued that the shootings were unjustified because neither of the Starks' had weapons.


Just a few of the documented incidences from;
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/research/?page=incident&menu=gvr


More recently it should be noted that some states do not divulge whether or not criminals including murderers have CCW licenses.

[ildemo]

56. 7 cases = 35 cents

Are we rich like Bill Gates yet?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

64. Cha-ching

I'm rich biotch!! That's pretty good, what can you buy with 35 cents?

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

62. You are more likely to be murdered by a cop.

You are also more likely to be accidently shot by a cop. So I'm not sure what point you want to make here. If it's that some people who have access to guns shouldn't, guess what we all agree. If it's that people do bad things, again we all agree. What's incredibly amazing to me is that after the issuance of millions of permits you have a miniscule amount of violent crime committed by CCW permit holders.


David

[iverglas]

71. but they'll just keep saying it

First the fact that they are thoroughly screened in the licensing process should mean that they seldom commit serious crimes a given.

A point that has been made and explained at length on this very board over the last couple of weeks.

If I may quote me:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=167881&mesg_id=167892

Should you be surprised that a population in which there were obviously large numbers of criminals was more likely to commit crimes than a population in which there were BY DEFINITION no criminals???

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=167881&mesg_id=167935

What kind of a dunderhead would compare the crime rate among a group of people who were certified crime-free at a point not long before the beginning of the study period to a group of people in which a significant proportion has already committed a crime or crimes?

What factor is most predictive of the commission of a crime?

Why, having committed a crime in the past.

So who would be surprised to find that a group of people who had never committed a crime in the past (of which they ahd been convicted, anyway) was less likely to commit crimes in future than a population that include numerous people who had committed crimes in the past?

A really good actor, I'd say.

Somebody get back to me when we have a study comparing holders of permits to non-holders of permits with similar demographic characteristics, specifically including age, sex, economic status and previous criminal history.

No answer to either of those posts, btw.


More recently it should be noted that some states do not divulge whether or not criminals including murderers have CCW licenses.

Ah yes. Perpetuating the situation referred to in the remark so oft misrepresented hereabouts:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

Evidence was insufficient to determine the effectiveness of any of these laws ... .

Perhaps this will assist someone in understanding the true meaning of that statement ...

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

92. The same kind of dunderhead that would propose taking weapons away from them.

We have had this discussion of criminals before, we are all for punishing them. It is taking rights away from the people who haven't been convicted as a criminal that we aren't to keen on.


David

[iverglas]

95. big fucking WHUP for you, pal

We have had this discussion of criminals before, we are all for punishing them.

Yes, I know all about that. I know all about the Jerry Springer, Dr. Laura, finger-pointing, blame-laying, hang-em-high mentality that prevails where you're at.

I also know that people who say things like that DO NOT GIVE A SHIT about the victims.

Because you can lock somebody up for the next 500 years, you can skin them alive, you can cut off their body parts one by one until they're dead -- and the victims will still have been harmed or killed.

[iverglas]

96. but just out of curiosity

What remote, imaginable connection did this gratuitous announcement have to do with anything in my post?

You seem to have chosen to follow me around typing inanely irrelevant burble in response to things I say.

Feel free to stop anytime.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

98. You complained that nobody had responded to them, so I responded.

I'm sorry you didn't like it.


David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

99. It should also be noted that you responded to me.

There was no following you around as you accuse me of doing, an apology would be appreciated.

David

[iverglas]

100. okay, explain how this even began to be rational

The question you were apparently purporting to answer:

What kind of a dunderhead would compare the crime rate among a group of people who were certified crime-free at a point not long before the beginning of the study period to a group of people in which a significant proportion has already committed a crime or crimes?

(Hint: we're talking about all the people hereabouts who keep parroting the "statistics" about low crime rates among holders of concealed weapons permits.)


The "answer":

The same kind of dunderhead that would propose taking weapons away from them.



On that note, I wander off in confusion to make squash pancakes.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

104. They do have low crime rates.

That fact is indisputable. Look at the revocation rates for permits.


David

[maxidivine]

147. Comparative studies

Would have to show everybody aged 21 and up, because that is the population that has and can get CC permits. How do you propose to make a study like this when old ladies, young women, young men, middle aged individuals, everybody is a part of the "demographic" of CCW holders?


"Somebody get back to me when we have a study comparing holders of permits to non-holders of permits with similar demographic characteristics, specifically including age, sex, economic status and previous criminal history."



Uh-oh, I mentioned that women have concealed carry permits too. Now I will be blasted for "using women to my advantage" or some other idiotic thing.

[dmiller]

158. Permits

So your argument is they would not have been able to murder someone if
they didn't have the permit. You gotta be kiddin! I have been in possesion
of a CCL from my home stae since 1994 and have not killed my wife any neighbors, my chidren,bosses
or anyone else nor have I ever felt the need. I have however had my life threatened by a convicted
felon out on parole who I gladly helped send back to prison. I will probably have to deal with him again when he once again makes parole I have also come way to close to walking in on a armed robbery in progress. These miscreant did not have concealed weapon permits but were armed to the teeth with guns, knives and tire tools. Even the Brady bunch can't label everyone killers because they have a permit. By the why Sarah's hubby was not shot by someone with a permit.

[iverglas]

168. where do you buy your spectacles?

I want some! Then I could make a spectacle of myself too.

You say:

So your argument is they would not have been able to murder someone if they didn't have the permit.

You say that in response to this:

If by "Wow you finally found one" you are implying there haven't been any CCW holders before this one who have committed serious felonies including murders, you are kidding right?

The folks who favored the issuance of must issue concealed licenses are the ones who have been saying that CCW license holders are upstanding citizens who hardly ever commit serious crimes.

Why do you say that in response to this?

Just to make a spectacle of yourself?


You gotta be kiddin!

Well, maybe you are.

[dmiller]

177. Your spectacles?

You of course don't need spectacles to make a spectacle of yourself. :)
I'm sorry did you make the post that I am commenting on? Sweetie!!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

18. This doesn't change the fact that women should have access to firearms to protect them from rapists.

Just wanted to make that point.


David

[iverglas]

21. yes, it's a fine point, and it needed to be made

It will need to be made many times a day for the next several years, I imagine.

Women need firearms with which to shoot the husbands, fathers, boyfriends, dates, uncles, neighbours, work colleagues and classmates who account for an overwhelming majority of the men who rape women.

A whole lot of dead men coming up. And I just know what the hoohah would be if *I* said I were looking forward to it, eh?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

25. It wouldn't surprise us at all if you were looking forward to it.

I'm all for the women defending themselves and if the rapists get killed so be it, they honestly have it coming.

David

[TPaine7]

34. Wow, you're exactly right!

Women need firearms with which to shoot the husbands, fathers, boyfriends, dates, uncles, neighbours, work colleagues and classmates who account for an overwhelming majority of the men who rape women.

Precisely.

Like you, I can't follow the logic of cretins who think that because a man is a womans father, for instance, he should get to rape her without the possibility of preventive deadly consequences. That is truly barbaric and primitive thinking isn't it? The very idea is repulsive and disrespectful of women, who should obviously have the option to prevent rape by any necessary means up to and including principled deadly force.

We might not agree on everything, but it's good to find common ground.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

154. one of those things that needs preserving for posterity

Because she clearly just hates men in general, was probably mentally damaged by some scumbag earlier in life

Yeah. Actually, it was the RC nun who ran the children's hospital ward where I was interned for three months at the age of 8.

and now has lost the ability to distinguish between her previous attacker and every man alive.

I don't actually have a lot of difficulty distinguishing between the middle-aged woman in a white burka-like garment and, well, most men. Do you?

She was being sarcastic, while you, I and FireMedicDave support the right of women to protect themselves from felonious assaults, sexual or otherwise, with deadly force.

And I, iverglas, support the right of anyone anywhere anytime to defend themselves against any kind of assault using the force that is reasonable in the circumstances, where no reasonable alternative is available.

Because that is what will actually help PREVENT incidents like rape from fully developing.

What actually will help prevent sexual assault is for all men everywhere to stop assaulting women, and do everything they can to prevent other men from assaulting women.

Telling women to carry firearms to protect themselves is just so fucking easy, isn't it?

"I SUPPORT WOMEN'S RIGHT TO KILL BAD GUYS" ... there, you're done. Phew, didn't even have to stand up, did you?

And then there will be less victimized women in the world, and while that SHOULD strike poor old iverglas as a good thing, she instead sees that as a threat because victimized women would be a smaller population.

Yes, there's my interest, declared. I have an interest in women being victimized. You haven't explained what that interest is, and I'm afraid I'm too dumb to figure it out. Oh well. One of life's little mysteries.

At least that is exactly what it looks like.

... to a blind pig in a shitstorm. Isn't that how that figure of speech goes?

[iverglas]

156. well, I guess all I can say is

me: Women need firearms with which to shoot the husbands, fathers, boyfriends, dates, uncles, neighbours, work colleagues and classmates who account for an overwhelming majority of the men who rape women.

you: Precisely.

me: :puke:

[maxidivine]

148. Now you will be bashed

For daring to abuse women to further your own sick agenda! how dare you try to claim you are interested in women's rights and wellbeing! All you care about is arming every first grade class with the heaviest weapons available! Admit it!



See I can be iverglas too!

[MadMaddie]

19. In the end the killers are all Cowards...

Let me guess the wife was going to leave him,

He got caught doing something and couldn't face the music..

Hey did you know that McCain is going to be at the huge NRA Convention in WV Next month?

[Wcross]

23. Concealed carry permit? According to whom?

“He carries a gun with a holster underneath him, but he has a concealed-weapons permit,” Price said.

Price said Jackson always felt the need to protect himself in case he was ever attacked in public.

So, the "proof" he actually has a permit to carry is his new girlfriend, Ms. Ashley Price? Has it been confirmed this individual HAD a permit issued by the State of Virginia or should we just take Ashley's word for it? :eyes: Could it be he just told her that? Until it is verified it is not fact. Wouldn't the news media do a "death dance" around the murder if he HAD a permit? Wouldn't the headline reads "Permit holder kills family & self"?

Sure zanne, keep pushing gun control. DEMAND tougher gun laws during an election this important, help your guy McCain! You & your ilk are shooting the Democratic party in the foot. (pun intended) You know, MrBenchley seemed to get really vocal around the presidential election cycle as well.

[pipoman]

27. Great point n/t

[zanne]

31. Well, I think you guys are doing more for McCain than Rush Limbaugh...

Putting down the Democrats who want stricter gun control is being a traitor to your party, WCross.
I'm sure you never looked at it that way; you're so sure of your "wisdom". WEll, you can criticize fellow Dems all you want; there's no law against it, but remember; you're not part of the majority of Dems. You're the minority so can the threatening talk about the election. You're running out of ammunition.

[Wcross]

37. Please provide proof or pull the post sweetheart.

It is called propaganda without proof. You would demand the same.

[iverglas]

80. "proof"

of an opinion?

Hell, if I had a nickel for every time someone spouted an opinion without "proof" around here ...

I'd be almost as rich as I would be if I had a nickel just for every time some gun-head spouted an opinion without "proof" around here.

[Wcross]

93. , I am asking for proof that the individual had a concealed carry permit.

Is that clear enough?

[mitchleary]

39. How many guns laws

do you know about. there are thousands in this country. Enforce the ones that we already before passing new ones.

Why do you hate guns so much, geez.

And you crack about helping mccain, that is you. ask the over 20 congresspeople that lost their seats in 94 and gave the repubs the majority. They voted for legislation pushed by people like you, ones that know little or nothing about guns. the 90's bill was mostly cosmetic changes that amounted to nothing but a whole lot of lost seats. Then you have the temerity to crow about it like it did something besides hand the house to gingrich and the boys. Does a pistol grip really make a gun more deadly? please do the gun owners of us a favor, ask questions and read a little bit about guns so you know things like assault rifles (aka automatic weapons, one where you hold the trigger and it keeps firing) have been illegal for citizens to own since the 1920s. Start there and educate yourself, if you keep up your tyrannical, ignorant gun grabbing, YOU are the one helping McCain, NOT the gun owners.

[rdenney]

44. Absolutely! Gun control laws have always been a core Democrat issue, and will be again too in 2009.

[krispos42]

47. Wrong.

I did some research about this.

Enjoy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=136200

[pipoman]

55. Yep a core issue which has arguably cost the party more

elections than any other single issue. How do you explain the repeated losses of rural and blue collar, traditional Democratic states since 1994? It is because the Dems who inhabit those states have been abandoned by their party with the party's catering to urban and self proclaimed intellectual Dems through their rabid support for gun control and their lockstep with pugs support of 'free trade agreements'.

The party can not win national elections without the support of rural and blue collar dems.

[bossy22]

86. it will most likely not be a big issue in the future

with DNC chairmean Howard Dean (A rated by the NRA) at the helm i doubt gun control will pushed come election time....the democrats learned finally to shut up about a wedge issue and win elections

we have entered a new era when it comes to gun politics- concealed carry more liberal then it has ever been, a supreme court about to affirm the 2A is an individual right....

[SteveM]

143. "core Democrat issue": maybe since you've been alive. Not since I've been.

[maxidivine]

151. Yes they will

but in a more low-key way than ever before. However, it will be more important to all interested parties than before as well. And that is why the two candidates we have are falling all over themselves to hide their true attitudes towards gunowners and their ideas about guns.

Neither will broadcast it, but neither one of them have anything but a crocodile smile for people who like to shoot.

And it will cost many votes this election.

[spin]

45. "A traitor to your party"? What the HELL are you insinuating...

While it is true that many Democrats oppose firearm ownership and concealed carry, many others are pro gun.

A 2006 Gallup Poll found that about one-third of Americans living in a household with a gun are Democrats, and that includes a lot of union members. Many believe that an anti-gun stance cost Al Gore his home state of Tennessee in 2000, and cost John Kerry West Virginia in 2004.

********

But some Democrats who support gun rights say Clinton and Obama can do even more to appeal to voters like them.

"Democrats have taken a beating over the past 14 years at the ballot box because their party is often perceived as being anti-Second Amendment," said Daniel Barnett, a Dallas resident who helped organize a group called Amendment II Democrats. "If Democrats on Capitol Hill want to effect real change in the economy, education, health care, Social Security and the environment, they cannot afford to let themselves be identified as 'gun-grabbers.'"
http://swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/04/clinton_obama_chase_elusive_gu.html

You might favor a "pure" Democratic Party that excludes pro gun voters. Let's say you get your way. The Democratic Party is composed only of anti-gun extremists.

Since most local and national elections are very close in today's world, the Republican Party uses gun ownership as a wedge issue and they win more tight elections than they lose. They gain the Presidency and total control of the house and senate. The Supreme Court becomes packed with ultra conservative judges selected and approved by the President and Congress.

* This country would continue to follow the path of the current Bush administration. Big corporations and the unregulated free traders would benefit. The rich would continue to get richer. The middle class and the poor would become their wage slave servants.

* The rich would be well educated, the middle class and the poor just above illiterate.

*The rich would get the best medical care in the world. The middle class would be stressed by the cost of health insurance. The poor would just have to pray for good health.

*The rich would live safely in fenced and guarded enclaves. The middle class and the poor would suffer in a crime filled environment. Drugs and drug gangs would be rampant. Violence would increase. More people would buy firearms for self protection because the police would be too busy to respond quickly.

*We would find ourselves involved in more unnecessary and costly wars.

*Privacy rights would be further eroded and the government more intrusive. People might suddenly be arrested and carted off to remote locations and denied the rights guaranteed by our Constitution. All for the war on terrorism.

Now lets say the Democratic Party becomes more pro gun and favors only reasonable and effective gun legislation. Pro gun voters are reassured that their rights to own guns for hunting, target shooting and self defense (including concealed carry) are safe.

The Democratic Party now regains gun owners who fled the flock. Disenchanted Republicans decide to vote for Democratic candidates. Many close elections are now won by Democrats. Democrats now win the Presidency and control Congress.

* Education improves for all classes.

* Universal heath care is implemented.

* Meaningful well paying jobs return. Free trade is regulated and fair to this country. Corporations no longer get tax breaks as they export jobs to foreign counties.

* The economy improves dramatically. People no longer live pay check to pay check or live in despair wondering how to pay for their mortgage, their food, gas for their car and their electric and fuel bills.

* Crime decreases. The improvements in education, the economy and jobs reduce the despair and hopelessness that many people feel.

* Further efforts to find and resolve the roots causes of violence are implemented.

* Wars only occur only when and if absolutely necessary. The money saved goes to further improve education, heath care, research and efforts to reduce global warming and gain energy independence.

* In the improved and less violence society that results, the demand for firearms decreases. Most people feel little need to possess weapons for self defense. Hunters, collectors and target shooters enjoy their weapons, others spend their hard earned cash on more useful possessions.

Guess what. You have accomplished your goal of reducing gun ownership. You also have glued this broken society together again.{/b}

Of course, this assumes we elect people who don't fall under the control of big corporations but instead serve the interests of the people who elected them.

[maxidivine]

150. That's right, how dare you!

How dare you question the infinite wisdom of the elitist section of the party!



And zanne, he isn't minority. if more of the people your side claims to have in its camp were informed about even basic firearms law and function, you wouldn't have anyone behind you but the moonbats who secretly think they are trying to legislate away death itself.

[TPaine7]

35. Are the actual fact relevant?

This seems to be about emotion, like the last horror story.

And no fair using logic and critical thinking. Shame on you!

[russ1943]

40. According to the Sheriff

The Fredricksburg Freelance Star reported that information without any "death dance".
If it's information you really want why wouldn't you determine that information yourself?


Thomas was shot with an AK-47 assault rifle, Sheriff Charles Jett said, while the others were shot with a .38-caliber handgun.
Thomas and Jackson were dead in the living room when police entered 7 Walt Way just south of Drew Middle School about 9:40 p.m.
The .38 was still in his hand, police said, and the AK-47 was lying nearby.
The children were lying in a crib in the bedroom they shared, Jett said. They were rushed out for emergency treatment, but pronounced dead a short time later.
Police later searched the trailer and seized at least seven guns, six knives, a machete, a sword and numerous boxes of ammunition, according to a search warrant filed yesterday in Stafford Circuit Court.
Jett said police at this point can only speculate as to why Jackson, who had a concealed handgun permit, had so much weaponry and what spurred his actions.
http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2008/052008/05072008/377460

[spin]

49. He had a fairly impressive arsenal but smaller than mine..

and my firearm and knife collection is tiny compared to that of many other shooters I know.

None of the weapons I own has ever been used to intimidate or injure another individual (with the exception of the revolver my daughter used to scare off an intruder who was breaking into our home).

I also have a concealed weapons permit.

It's not the number or type of a weapons that a person owns that's important. It all comes down to the responsibility and character of the person.


Every right implies a responsibility. Every opportunity, an obligation. Every possession, a duty.
John D Rockefeller

[zanne]

65. So, if I got the Concealed Carry permit issuer to come to DU and prove it...

You'd come up with another reason to discount the article. You guys are so predictable.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

66. Just some proof would be nice.

A clear statement from some official saying that in fact the shooter had legally obtained a concealed carry permit and currently possessed the guns and permit in compliance with the law. The statement in this story isn't clear. Is it the sheriff saying it officially? Is it the sheriff repeating what the woman said? Just a little clarification is all we ask.

David

[iverglas]

79. I was curious too

So, the "proof" he actually has a permit to carry is his new girlfriend, Ms. Ashley Price? Has it been confirmed this individual HAD a permit issued by the State of Virginia or should we just take Ashley's word for it? :eyes: Could it be he just told her that? Until it is verified it is not fact. Wouldn't the news media do a "death dance" around the murder if he HAD a permit? Wouldn't the headline reads "Permit holder kills family & self"?

Did you consider doing your own research, instead of asking all these questions? I did. I didn't find anything yesterday (although I didn't look too hard). Today I see:

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2008/052008/05072008/377460

Police later searched the trailer and seized at least seven guns, six knives, a machete, a sword and numerous boxes of ammunition, according to a search warrant filed yesterday in Stafford Circuit Court.

Jett said police at this point can only speculate as to why Jackson, who had a concealed handgun permit, had so much weaponry and what spurred his actions.

The report doesn't actually attribute the statement that he had a concealed handgun permit -- but allow me to ask what you would surely ask:

If he didn't have a concealed handgun permit and reports were circulating in the media that he did have a permit, wouldn't the police be at great pains to point out that the reports were false???

I guess we'll just have to wait and see whether the police or some other credible source makes a statement on the point.

Myself, I find it of more concern that a person like this could have access to ANY FIREARMS AT ALL, let alone the small armory he had possession of.

Linked from that article:

http://fredericksburg.com/video/pdfs/2008/0506triplemurder3.pdf

list of items seized from scene

[TPaine7]

28. Assuming that this story has some significance to public policy. . .

what is it?

When I ignore the steaming pile of excrement about the nickels and Donald Trump, the "good" gun owners jibe (without going through the effort to make an actual point like saying, for instance, that CCW permits should not be issued, or that they should be at the whim of a police chief--an actual solid point that could be debated), and the obvious sarcasm of the title (I'm assuming you don't actually think murder is responsible), I can't find any substance.

Is there an actual point? This horrific event happened, therefore what?

[Tejas]

33. Nope, no point,

just standard copy/paste from a gun-grabber website with a dab of hype by the OP.

Has gunguys.con endorsed a Presidential candidate?








.con = pun intended

[iverglas]

84. well ...

Let's look for some dots we might connect.

Virginia is a "shall issue" state, is that correct?

And it appears that this individual actually didn't have any criminal convictions, despite what seems to be a thoroughly criminal lifestyle.

So there would have been no grounds on which he could have been denied either

- legal access to firearms (i.e. he would have passed a NICS check, and it would not have been illegal for him to acquire a firearm otherwise, by private sale)

- a permit to carry a concealed firearm

Do these facts qualify as relevant to public policy?

Looks like, if this individual did indeed have a permit to carry a concealed firearm, John Lott and Mary Rosh are going to have to do some rewriting:

http://www.davekopel.org/2A/OpEds/License%20to%20Kill.htm

So far in Virginia, not a single Virginia permit holder has been involved in a violent crime.

Actually, that's from 1998, so I'd be surprised if some rewriting hadn't been called for before now.

[rdenney]

42. This is so sad and so unnecessary. Perhaps Obama will reinstate the assault weapon ban again...

..this insanity with firearms in America has to be stopped, one way or another.

You notice that almost all these gun-wielding murderers kill themselves, as well as
the innocent victims of their gun madness?

They know what will happen to them if they ever got arrested, the cowards, every one of them.

[krispos42]

46. Ah, so we could have 4 handgun victims?

Instead of 3 handgun victims and one rifle victim?

[maxidivine]

166. Why do you include the murderer?

As a victim? And why do you call it "handgun victims" or "rifle victims"?

[iverglas]

180. I love it when they fight among themselves

[TPaine7]

48. No disrespect, but

most gun-wielding murderers do not kill themselves, while all murder-suicides do. What makes you think otherwise?

[spin]

50. self delete

[rdenney]

53. What makes you think that I see the difference? A gun simply makes killing easier for these insane..

people to accomplish thier deadly deeds.

[slackmaster]

60. Insane people aren't supposed to have guns

How about fixing the mental health care system so we can identify and help those who need it, as well as stopping them from buying guns?

[rdenney]

68. The solution is to have people in the MH system now reported to the authorities until such time as..

they become mentally well and no longer need therapy or medictions. This would also apply to people with substance abuse issues including millions of alchoholics. A simple DUI should disallow gun ownership for a period of years or until they are cured of thier various mental illnesses.

[TPaine7]

90. A reasonable proposal.

A person who handles a rapidly moving ton of steel (and other stuff) in public while under the influence probably shouldn't be trusted with guns.

Good point.

[rdenney]

101. Thanks! n/t

[slackmaster]

129. People who are mentally ill have civil rights too

As I am sure you know.

[TPaine7]

82. Your statement. . .

You said:

You notice that almost all these gun-wielding murderers kill themselves, as well as
the innocent victims of their gun madness?

It is a fact that most "gun-wielding murderers" do not "kill themselves", so you are at least mistaken (unless I misunderstood you).

I hope you do see the difference between factually correct and factually incorrect. I hope you care about that difference, because I thought you might bring an interesting perspective to the conversation(s) here. People who literally don't care whether beliefs are based in reality or not usually don't contribute much of interest.

[spin]

51. Sorry, the assault weapons ban was a TOTAL failure..

It banned weapons based on their appearance. The manufacturers merely changed the way they looked and continued to sell basically the same weapons.

It banned high capacity magazines. Pre-ban magazines were not banned so magazine manufactures merely went to three shifts to produce enormous quantities of magazines before the deadline. They made a hell of a profit selling them when the ban went into effect.

More shooters decided to buy "assault" rifles because of the ban and the number of these weapons increased.

Democrats lost elections because of their anti-gun position. We ended up in the mess we find ourselves in today.

The fact is the assault weapons ban accomplished the opposite effect that it was intended to. Tell people they can't have something and suddenly thats exactly what they want.

Many people are already buying assault rifles in fear of the anti-gun Democrats taking control of the Presidency and the Congress. Just check out this current post in the DU Gungeon:

I did my best to stimulate the economy yesterday.

I purchased an AR-15 with 6 - 30 round magazines, 1 - 20 round magazine, 400 rounds of ammo and a gun case. All that and I still have $50 left out of my $600 stimulus check. Let's hear some opinions, I figured at that price I couldn't go wrong. If anyone pushes another assault weapons ban through, I figure I'll be able to get double what I paid for it. If not it was still a good deal and I can probably make a little cash off of selling it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[rdenney]

52. It was only a failure because it didnt outlaw existing assualt weapons. Had that been the case you.

would be singing an entirely different tune in this thread. In some states assualt weapons are still outlawed and banned, as well they should be.

[pipoman]

54. Why, exactly what do you believe the result would be?

Do you advocate the banning of chrome wheels and tail fins on cars because they make the car look fast? I don't own any so called assault weapons nor do I plan to. I do own a Remington Model 740 which was bought by my grandfather in the 1950's, he hunted deer with it. When he died my dad used it for his deer rifle, I shot my first deer with it when I was 13. When my dad died I took the rifle. A few years ago my son shot his first deer with it. The mechanism works exactly like that of many so called assault weapons, which is like the mechanism of some of the most popular hunting rifles sold for over 100 years.





What is your plan for outlawing these guns? How do you intend to compensate me for my property? Keep in mind there are millions of these 'assault weapons' in private hands with a minuscule percentage ever used for anything more than entertainment and hunting.

[rdenney]

102. That is NOT an assault weapon. No bayonet lug, no pistol grip, no large capacity magazines...

..but nice try at obfuscating the issue.

[pipoman]

105. The point is that it is identical in function

and we are back to outlawing chrome wheels and tail fins on cars because they look fast.

[bossy22]

130. it says nothing about a large capacity magazine

it says a detachable magazine

again- there is no true definition of an assault weapon- its basically anything some politician wants it to be

[bossy22]

133. hmm...it actually can be considerd an AW

it has a detachable mag and something that can act as a grip.....

see thats how badly the law is written...the new AWB defines AW on only one extra characteristic that is cosmetic

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

63. Do you believe that "assault weapons" were used in a lot of homicides?

or do you just believe they should be regulated because they look scary?

David

[bossy22]

69. that is called confiscation

and could not be done....The american public will not stand for police going door to door confiscating weapons

thats why there are grandfather clauses- Govt in Canada and US don't like confiscations cause it looks bad for the govt, so they just grandfather it in

It was a failure because it targetted a gun only used in a small percentage of gun crimes-

there is so such thing as an assault weapon- is is arbitrary- the "evil gun of the day"...

they banned semi-auto guns based on cosmetic features

the ruger mini-14 which can accept a 30 rd mag and fires a .223 round is okay

an AR-15 which can accept a 30rd mag and fires a .223 at the same rate of fire as the min-14 is banned

luckily Pelosi has enough sense not to bring the issue up and HArry reid is very adimently against the assault weapon ban so it wont be an issue for sometime...and not to mention they really don't have the votes to bring it to the floor in the senate

[spin]

73. A video on the Katrina gun confiscation...

A camera crew was filming as the police confiscated an old lady's revolver. It's heart breaking to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4

Another related video from ABC news:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm5PC7z79-8&feature=related

[bossy22]

78. and there was outcry in the govt

and the vitter amendment was placed and passed to make sure this doesnt happen again

[spin]

89. True, but rest assured that if a major catastrophe happens...

that impacts the area I live in, this old homeboy will hide some of his weapons and ammo where no one can find them.

(Unless of course our wonderful government decides to water board me.)

"You can always trust your government. They have your best interests at heart."
Spin

(I like quotes...sometimes I use my own.)

[rdenney]

103. I agree that door to door confiscations wont happen but we can capture many of these guns by using.

confiscation of firearms as part of the sentence, if the owner breaks any laws, thus ridding these weapons slowly, on a more long-term scale. We already do so now with people who commit domestic violence and/or molestation against family members and others.

There is no reason at all that we couldn't legally expand that to include drunk drivers, public drunks and drug-users and other people arrested for similar crimes.

Each gun off of the streets is one less gun that can be used to kill someone, particularly by someone with anger, sexual, alcohol or drug problems, thus putting them in a class of persons more likely to use a gun to harm someone.

[bossy22]

132. i think

you should read form 4473 cause many of those things probit you from purchasing a firearm

[rdenney]

183. We need only correct the law so that one AW is not allowed over another...

so that when the next ban starts it will include the Ruger mini-14 and other high capacity rifles.

Simple, huh?

[slackmaster]

186. Several million Mini-14 and Mini-30 rifles are owned by people

Most of them voters. How many votes are you willing to cast aside in order to achieve, what is it you were trying to achieve?

[slackmaster]

59. You of all people know that Presidents don't write laws, rdenney

I see you couldn't resist the temptation to come to the Gungeon. I am not surprised.

Welcome!

[rdenney]

67. The president sets the tone and signs gun control into law. nt

[bossy22]

77. it is true that presidents can help push legislation through

but i doubt a president obama would do such a thing

the reason the AWB got pa-ssed in the first place was that President Clinton and the democrats made gun control a top priority...now in 2008, it has been relegated to the back burner...and even taken off the stove in some cases

i doubt obama will push for it greatly...he will say he is in favor of it, but its not going to be a big issue

with pelosi afraid of losing the house again and reid who is very pro-gun leading the senate very little is going to happen

remember how much of a fight it was to pass a simple background check fix....just imagine what it will be like with a ban

[rdenney]

140. Thanks for the welcome. Yes, Presidents can influence gun laws like Bill Clinton did. n/t

[bossy22]

70. this would have been done with or without an AWB

just cause he used an AK-47 does not mean that if that weapon was not available they would be alive


remember that VT shooter used a standard 9mm pistol (the ones our police are issued)...in fact the VT panel said that the same carnage could have occured if the shooter used a 1900's era revolver

btw president obama will probably not touch the issue- the votes really arent there and there is no political will

gun control is dead at the federal level

[bossy22]

74. btw if you read the article

he shot himself with the AK- the others were with a handgun- very little an AWB would do to change the situation

[iverglas]

83. ?????

btw if you read the article
he shot himself with the AK

Okay, that's just bizarre.

According to the sheriff’s office, Thomas died of a shot to the head from an AK-47-type assault rifle. Aaron Poseidon Jackson died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head.

You may need to read the article again.

Thomas is the woman. Jackson is the man who murdered her and the two children, and then killed himself with the 38 that was found in his hand at the scene.

Just the facts. Me, as we know, I hold no brief for assault weaons bans in and of themselves.

[bossy22]

85. my bad

yeah you were right partly, thomas was shot with the AK, but the others were with a .38

so it stands that only one person was shot with the AK


"I hold no brief for assault weaons bans in and of themselves."
well that is the magic that is you

[bossy22]

81. seven recs?

who the hell gave this anecdote 7 recs

[bossy22]

87. 8 recs!!!!!

[bossy22]

88. 8 recs!!!!!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

134. I'm really surprised you think this man was a responsible citizen.

[radioburning]

138. Anti's just keep getting pwned.

It amazes me to no end how the anti's just get pummeled every day on this forum. Seriously, purely from a debate point of view-the anti's seldom measure up. Pro-gunners make a point; anti's start calling names and generally just start acting out. Anti-gunners make point; pro-gunners will point out, factually, what is fundamentally wrong with their assumptions/theories/arguments. I'm not saying pro-gunners don't call people names and unnecessarily flame people, or act hateful and close minded, but after reading tons of posts on here it just seems that the gunners have more "scientifically provable" stances, whereas the anti's have more "emotional" points of view. Just an observation.

[iverglas]

157. you seem to be reading some other thread

Anti's just keep getting pwned.

This thread is about:

Women and children just keep getting murdered by assholes with firearms.

[dmiller]

164. Anti's

No, it's about Permits,assault weapons and gun control too.
Whether your willing to admit it or not.

[dmiller]

173. Pummeled

It has always so. Some even believe you can't be a Democrat if you hunt or own firearms.
But wait,gun control issues are what caused many Dem's to leave the party. At least alot that I know.

[radioburning]

165. This post is also about $300 in nickels, if not less...

If we're talking about murders committed with legal guns, by their owners.

[dmiller]

167. Stats

Most of the government stats being quoted earlier don't differientiate between murders or suicides
or accidental deaths committed by legal guns or illegal guns nor do they separate the differeent catagories of deaths. This serves to inflate the numbers for obviuos reasons.

[radioburning]

172. Yeah, I know. You are way more likely to die from prescription medicine, but anti's think...

the anti's think there's some kind of bloodbath going on in America.

[iverglas]

174. and firearms save so many more lives

than prescription medications.

Why, they saved 385,000 lives in a single year, last time I looked!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=169547&mesg_id=170082

Still no replies ...

[dmiller]

176. Replies

You got replies now.

[iverglas]

179. well jeez

I had to throw a tantrum to get 'em.

[radioburning]

181. Well, at least you just sidestepped making a counterpoint by making a sorta related point.

...instead of just spewing some insults sarcastically.

[rdenney]

184. You cant expect replies for a survey which was meant to be flawed to begin with, can you?

I mean "385,000" people saved... yeah right! :puke:

[maxidivine]

190. Why is that so unbelievable for you?

If most defensive gun uses do not result in shots being fired, and most people do not want to deal with the police any more than they have to, then doesn't it stand to reason that if you are not at home when you use your pistol to successfully end or avert a crime, but nothing serious ends up taking place, why would you report it? waste hours of your time giving police a description of someone they probably won't find, when they would only have your word as evidence that a crime happened, when you could just go home and calll it a day?

[avenger64]

182. Looks like you just got a nickel to me ...

... 1 x 5 = 5 cents, right? Got anything else?

[class2068]

185. Bullshit.

The Dept. of Justice keeps very close tabs on shootings. Nationally, a CCW holder is 1/16 as likely to commit a gun crime as is someonje without a license. And that "you are 62 times more likely to kill a family member than a criminal" crap? It's a lie.

[iverglas]

187. that "you are 62 times more likely to kill a family member than a criminal" crap

And it's all yours!

The Dept. of Justice keeps very close tabs on shootings. Nationally, a CCW holder is 1/16 as likely to commit a gun crime as is someonje without a license.

Can you direct us to your references, please?

Can you tell us why you would find it interesting that a certified crime-free population (i.e. holders of permits to carry concealed firearms) would commit fewer crimes than a population that includes many violent criminals?

[kyle12]

188. this article

whats does this post say nothing, that a concealed carry owner shot and killed his family ...this proves...what..nothing the fact of the matter is its proven that concealed carry laws are ineffective at reducing crime because 1. most crime is done by repeat offenders 2. these repeat offenders obviously have no regard for the law(do you think a concealed carry ban will make them think to not carry?) 3. many states have got rid of there concealed carry laws and noticed a reduction in crime...hmmm another point being that most bills ran through congress advocating the control of guns outside of registration reform are made by people with little or no knowledge of the subject, for example the brady bill only band cosmetic pieces of so-called assault rifle for example under the brady bill a semi-automatic ak-47 is illegal but a romanian sks is not nor is a ar-15 not to mention that weapons make up less than 1% of gun crimes and the brady bill does not have any thing in it to curve black market firearms with are the most frequently used in violent crime

[maxidivine]

189. Concealed Carry Laws aren't about crime reduction

Although that is a nice side benefit. More criminals are less likely to attempt to victimize others when they know they could be killed in the process.

The purpose of concealed carry laws are to allow citizens the means to legally provide for their own protection, so that if they are victimized by someone, they will have the most effective means available to make sure they do not lose their life.

[iverglas]

193. and this

Concealed Carry Laws aren't about crime reduction
Although that is a nice side benefit. More criminals are less likely to attempt to victimize others when they know they could be killed in the process.

... will of course explain why violent crime rates in the US rose in both 2005 and 2006 ...



http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/06/12/crime.rate/

Monday, June 12, 2006; Posted: 10:24 p.m. EDT (02:24 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Murders in the United States jumped 4.8 percent last year, and overall violent crime was up 2.5 percent for the year, marking the largest annual increase in crime in the United States since 1991, according to figures released Monday by the FBI.

Robberies nationally increased 4.5 percent, and aggravated assaults increased 1.9 percent, while the number of rapes last year fell 1.9 percent, the report said.

Crime increased most noticeably in several categories in many mid-sized cities and in the Midwest.

Law enforcement authorities and criminologists reacted cautiously, uncertain whether the preliminary statistics for 2005 signal the end of a long downward trend in crime or simply a one-year anomaly.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/24/AR2007092400444.html

Tuesday, September 25, 2007; Page A07

Violent crime in the United States rose more than previously believed in 2006, continuing the most significant increase in more than a decade, according to an FBI report released yesterday.

The FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting Program found that robberies surged by 7.2 percent and homicides rose 1.8 percent from 2005 to 2006. Violent crime overall rose 1.9 percent, substantially more than an increase of 1.3 percent estimated in a preliminary FBI report in June.

The jump was the second in two years, following a 2.3 percent rise in 2005. Taken together, the two years represent the first steady increase in violent crime since 1993, FBI records show.

Not seeing final 2007 figures, but whatever they are, they won't negate the 2005 and 2006 figures.

[maxidivine]

194. How about broken down state by state

So we can see where this increase in violent crime is coming from? Because your post doesn't seem to indicate that the stats are for states that allow concealed carry, just the U.S. as a whole. That is very flawed because the places with the highest violent crime rates tend to be cities where guns are demonized and concealed carry is illegal.

[iverglas]

195. okay -- start with Florida

Step right up.


Meanwhile --

That is very flawed because the places with the highest violent crime rates tend to be cities where guns are demonized and concealed carry is illegal.

-- I'll repeat for you:

Crime increased most noticeably in several categories in many mid-sized cities and in the Midwest.

And we'll remember that you have made a claim: THAT IS VERY FLAWED; and be waiting for you to back it up.