More quality discourse on the gun issue.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

What if any laws or regulations would you propose to reduce the number of firearm deaths in the United States? Please provide data to support your proposal if possible. Since everyone is playing nice let's keep it civil.

David

[thunder rising]

1. I'm keeping my guns, you keep yours and we'll be just fine.

[onehandle]

2. Forced sterilization for willing owners of firearms legal or illegal.

Too much?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

3. I think it's too much but maybe if you posted your research then people might better understand.

[onehandle]

4. You called my bluff!

My bad.

[jmg257]

10. Not if they're willing, but then - would it be "forced"???

[ogsbee]

5. Return to a FDR jobs economy

Not a serf economy with an impoverished and demoralized lumpen proletariat. Reagan created the homeless class to keep the rest of us in line. I would also reopen the mental hospitals for the many patients who belong there (most are victims, some are victimizers on their own in the cities).

[piedmont]

6. Legalize marijuana. How many billions of dollars does that failed policy...

pump into criminals' pockets?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

7. I'm not sure on the money issue you may want to research it and get back to us.

[Indy Lurker]

8. a couple of things

and neither one impacts the law abiding.



1. Prosecute prohibited buyers who try to purchase guns.

Despite 536,000 prohibited buyers caught by the National Instant Background Check,
only 6,700 people (1.25%) have been charged for these firearms violations. This includes 71%
of the violations coming from convicted or indicted felons.

---Bureau of Justice Statistics, Federal Firearm Offenders and Background Checks for Firearm Transfers, June 4, 2000





2. Increase jail time for violent offenders.

Half of all murders are committed by people on “conditional release” (i.e., parole or
probation).

---Robyn Cohen, “Probation and Parole Violators in State Prison, 1991: Survey of State Prison Inmates”, Bureau of Justice Statistics


81% of all homicide defendants had an arrest record; 67% had a felony arrest record; 70% had a conviction record; and 54% had a felony conviction.

---Brian Reaves, "Felony Defendants in Large Urban Counties, 1998", Bureau of Justice Statistics, November 2001

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

9. Thank you for your quality response.

It was concise, well researched and would obviously be very effective.

David

[facepalm]

12. got bad news for you here too

Every federal prosecutor I have ever asked about it has laughed and dismissed offhand the idea of prosecuting straw purchasers.

It's just too much of a hassle compared to prosecuting people for simple possession of something they aren't allowed to have (drugs, felon in possession of a firearm, etc). To get a straw purchaser (a relatively mild crime) you have to either catch them red handed or put on a lot of witnesses.

[gatts]

13. Suspected does not equal convicted

Despite 536,000 prohibited buyers caught by the National Instant Background Check,
only 6,700 people (1.25%) have been charged for these firearms violations. This includes 71%
of the violations coming from convicted or indicted felons.

There were 536,600 'rejected' NICS results. That does not necessarily indicate a prohibited buyer on its own. More than 5.3% of federal NCIS rejections are reversed on appeal, and state-information-based rejections are successfully reversed on appeal even more commonly.

Even those who actually are prohibited buyers may not be committing a crime. The specific law about improperly filling out the NICS form specifies knowing falsehoods; demonstrating that an individual knew his or her actions were or were not a felony conviction rather than a misdemeanor is surprisingly difficult, thanks to how clueless a lot of modern society is.

As for a real solution, your other quotes are on the money. Deal with the bad people, and don't let them out early just because you're sick of seeing them.

[facepalm]

11. laws?

It isn't a law problem, it's an enforcement and sentencing problem.

In my legal endeavors I've had the opportunity to talk with a few cops, many local, state and federal prosecutors and many defense attorneys about violent crime and the people that do it. The vast majority of people committing violent crimes already have criminal records, often for serious crimes. Every person in the criminal justice system I have ever met knew that certain criminals would continue to commit crimes so long as they were free. In a way, giving a criminal a light sentence is almost worse than not catching them, because now they know the consequences are light.

Make criminals do real time and they won't be able to get guns and commit crimes with them. And beleive me, no matter what gun law you pass, criminals will get guns. They can get drugs here, can't they? The UK is a small island that has had a complete ban on handguns for over 10 years but handgun crimes are now actually HIGHER than before the ban. Sources, UK Home Office crime victimization survey from 2006. Attempting to uninvent weapons or passing feel-good laws that ban them have zero effect on the criminals. Criminals don't obey laws about registering weapons or not carrying them any more than they obey the laws forbidding them from robbing, raping or murdering innocent people.

There are three causes to the underlying problem of insufficient punishment and enforcement:
-overcrowded jails. Jails are always packed to capacity, everywhere in the country I have checked. Not full of jaywalkers either.
-overworked prosecutors. If you've got 20 murderers and you can only try afford to try 10 of them, you're going to be pleading a lot of them down to manslaughter or letting them walk. We're talking about 17 year old murderers that will be back on the streets by the time they are 20, with a full education in how to be a criminal.
-the war on drugs. This diverts enforcement, court and prosecutorial time from catching violent criminals. Worse, the drug trade provides an excellent reason for criminals to begin packing weapons and using them on one another. This further increases the size of the crime sandwich that the criminal justice system has to bite into.

[spin]

14. I'd like to mention high school graduation rates first...

"Whereas the conventional wisdom had long placed the graduation rate around 85 percent, a growing consensus has emerged that only about seven in 10 students are actually successfully finishing high school. Graduation rates are even lower among certain student populations, particularly racial and ethnic minorities and males."
http://greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080419/OPINION/804190308/1004/NEWS01

Our analysis finds that graduating from high school in the America’s largest cities amounts, essentially, to a coin toss. Only about one-half (52 percent) of students in the principal school systems of the 50 largest cities complete high school with a diploma. That rate is well below the national graduation rate of 70 percent, and even falls short of the average for urban districts across the country (60 percent). Only six of these 50 principal districts reach or exceed the national average. In the most extreme cases (Baltimore, Cleveland, Detroit, and Indianapolis), fewer than 35 percent of students graduate with a diploma.
http://www.americaspromise.org/uploadedFiles/AmericasPromiseAlliance/Dropout_Crisis/SWANSONCitiesInCrisis040108.pdf

How can a young individual without a high school education find a well paying meaningful job? Many choose to pursue criminal activities rather than compete for low paying "hamburger flipping jobs". Criminals often find a firearm as essential to their occupation as a carpenter finds a hammer essential to his.

Criminals use their weapons to intimidate victims. Potential victims purchase weapons to protect themselves and their family. If we find a way to interest students in our frankly outdated system of education, we may reduced crime and in turn reduce the number of weapons owned by both honest and dishonest citizens in our society.

[facepalm]

16. chicken and egg

They are caused by the same thing. The same family atmosphere and cultural attitudes that cause someone to turn to crime at an early age will also cause someone to drop out of school.

Bad attitudes that I encountered commonly included:
-hard work is for suckers
-studying or behaving is "acting white"
-doing what you are told by your superiors is "being a bitch"

These attitudes were commonly associated with failure in my urban experience. My black classmates whose parents encouraged (or threatened) their children to study hard, behave themselves and put in the long hours with the books did just as well as the white and asian students.

I went to crappy urban public schools and had to cope with hoodlum classmates for years but because of a stable and encouraging home environment and my good work ethic, I did well on my SATs and got in to an elite undergrad via loans/scholarships. There is a lot of opportunity out there for anyone willing to work for it. Especially if you are a member of a "disadvantaged" minority. Universities are hungry for hardworking an intelligent minorities (especially blacks) for their diversity programs. If you have one iota of intelligence and a decent work ethic, there is a college out there looking for you.

In conclusion, it's your parents. Not how much money they make, but the type of people they are and the values they impart to you as they raise you. There are no easy solutions to this problem.

[spin]

17. Parents are definitely a contributing factor...

As you say there are no easy solutions to the educational problem.

We can't change the parents. Somehow we need to get the students interested in education.

I find my grandchildren are absolutely fascinated by computer games. They will spend hours and hours mastering a game. And they do learn some lessons from the time and effort they spend. Some games do a really great job of teaching. The new Grand Theft Auto does a really great job of teaching criminal behavior. Perhaps we could push for computer programmers to develop educational games and programs for use in our school systems and at home that incorporate a similar design but without all the gratuitous violence. Properly designed games could make the educational experience fun for students.

Some educational games exist. For example the Sim City and Civilization series of games.

However, two bestselling video games, Civilization and SimCity, are already being used in college classrooms to teach history and urban planning respectively and the entire field of video gaming is beginning to gain academic credibility.
http://campustechnology.com/articles/38441_2/


Students find the typical classroom setting in school to be boring, boring, boring. I feel we need to move education into the 21st century. Classroom teaching could be supplemented by computer games. In order to advance to higher levels, the basic skills learned from the teacher would have to be used.

Looking at the high school dropout rates, I doubt if we could do much worse than we are today.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

19. I appreciate the input.

I'll have to agree with spin though. I've worked in the poor black and white communities my entire career and education is looked down on. Crime is the easy way out and most often the examples that they see of how to be successful. Some of the brightest kids I've seen have been in those communities and their parents were drug addicts or alcoholics. I don't know where the answer is but, when you started talking about changing schools you are going to run head long into the NEA and be called lots of bad names.

David

[spin]

20. Reforming education will be a big challenge...

But I believe that if we force change it can be accomplished.

Bill Gates thinks it's possible: Following are excerpts form remarks he made at the National Education Summit on High Schools on February 26, 2005:

America’s high schools are obsolete.

By obsolete, I don’t just mean that our high schools are broken, flawed, and under-funded – though a case could be made for every one of those points.

By obsolete, I mean that our high schools – even when they’re working exactly as designed – cannot teach our kids what they need to know today.

Training the workforce of tomorrow with the high schools of today is like trying to teach kids about today’s computers on a 50-year-old mainframe. It’s the wrong tool for the times.

Our high schools were designed fifty years ago to meet the needs of another age. Until we design them to meet the needs of the 21st century, we will keep limiting – even ruining – the lives of millions of Americans every year.

****************************************

Students who graduate from high school, but never go on to college, will earn – on average – about twenty-five thousand dollars a year. For a family of five, that’s close to the poverty line. But if you're Hispanic, you earn less. If you’re black, you earn even less – about 14 percent less than a white high school graduate.

Those who drop out have it even worse. Only 40 percent have jobs. They are nearly four times more likely to be arrested than their friends who stayed in high school. They are far more likely to have children in their teens. One in four turn to welfare or other kinds of government assistance.

Everyone agrees this is tragic. But these are our high schools that keep letting these kids fall through the cracks, and we act as if it can’t be helped.

********************************************

Our foundation has invested nearly one billion dollars so far to help redesign the American high school. We are supporting more than fifteen hundred high schools – about half are totally new, and the other half are existing schools that have been redesigned. Four hundred fifty of these schools, both new and redesigned, are already open and operating. Chicago plans to open 100 new schools. New York City is opening 200. Exciting redesign work is under way in Oakland, Milwaukee, Cleveland, and Boston.

*********************************************



If we keep the system as it is, millions of children will never get a chance to fulfill their promise because of their zip code, their skin color, or the income of their parents.

That is offensive to our values, and it’s an insult to who we are.

Every kid can graduate ready for college. Every kid should have the chance.

Let’s redesign our schools to make it happen.



http://www.gatesfoundation.org/MediaCenter/Speeches/Co-ChairSpeeches/BillgSpeeches/BGSpeechNGA-050226.htm

[enfield collector]

15. end the war on (some) drugs. I thought we'd learned that lesson

during the prohibition era, but apparantly that period of history isn't taught at the law schools that most of our pols attend. I don't have any data to support my view, however I will point out that the Budweiseer and Miller beer delivery guys don't get involved in shootouts over "turf" now like bootleggers did during prohibition. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine that if pot was available for $5/pack at circle K then their would not be much incentive for drug peddlers to shoot it out on street corners to protect their "turf". I'm sure we could use the existing resources at BATFE to collect the tax on a pack of pot smokes, since the resulting drop in gun crime would probably leave them with time on their hands. the only losers here would be the prison-industrial complex who would be short on a lot of low-risk customers who are probably their profit center.

[spin]

18. I agree with you...some statistics...

The "War on Drugs" has proved a bigger failure than the war in Iraq.

A lot of people have made big bucks on both sides of the law and a lot of people have died or had their lives ruined.

One in four prisoners in the United States is serving time for a drug law violation. In the federal system, these people make up 55% of the prison population. http://www.november.org/thewall/wall/wall.html

And drug enforcement is expensive:

The requested drug control budget amount for FY 2004 is $11.7 billion

http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/publications/factsht/drugdata/index.html

Some drugs are extremely dangerous and should be outlawed. Some, however, are no more dangerous than alcohol. Marijuana is an example.

The most common illicit drugs used by current users over the age of 12 were marijuana (12.1 million users, or 5.4% of the population), cocaine (1.7 million users, or 0.7% of the population), and hallucinogens, which include LSD, PCP, and MDMA (1.3 million users, or 0.6% of the population). Approximately 37% of those over the age of 12 reported lifetime use of marijuana, 12.3% reported lifetime use of cocaine, and 12.5% reported lifetime use of hallucinogens.

And a lot of people get arrested for marijuana use...

Since 1992, approximately six million Americans have been arrested on marijuana charges, a greater number than the entire populations of Alaska, Delaware, the District of Columbia, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Vermont and Wyoming combined. Annual marijuana arrests have more than doubled in that time.

YEAR MARIJUANA ARRESTS

2001 723,627
2000 734,498
1999 704,812
1998 682,885
1997 695,200
1996 641,642
1995 588,963
1994 499,122
1993 380,689
1992 342,314



Since 1992, approximately six million Americans have been arrested on marijuana charges, a greater number than the entire populations of Alaska, Delaware, the District of Columbia, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Vermont and Wyoming combined. Annual marijuana arrests have more than doubled in that time.

http://skeptically.org/recdrugs/id8.html

Drug dealing is big business. The criminal organizations that supply the drugs use weapons as "tools of the trade".

Taking away some of the profit motive by legalizing less dangerous drugs would save the government money and the expense of the law enforcement, the criminal justice system and the prison system. These savings could be used to provide treatment for drug users, education to reduce the use of extremely dangerous drugs and more funds to break up the dealers who distribute those dangerous drugs.

Fewer drug dealers would result in fewer drug related crimes and fewer guns both legal and illegal in our society.