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"With more people carrying guns, self-defense killings on increase" Memphis, TN

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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 05:11 PM
Original message
"With more people carrying guns, self-defense killings on increase" Memphis, TN
With more people carrying guns, self-defense killings on increase
"The thugs have started running into people who can protect themselves," said Tom Givens, owner and instructor at the firearms training school RangeMaster, 2611 S. Mendenhall in Memphis.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Tennessee law gives citizens the right to defend themselves if they have a reasonable and imminent fear of harm from a carjacker, rapist, burglar or other violent assailant. They can also employ deadly force to protect another person.

And while a diminishing number of states require citizens to try to avoid a confrontation before using deadly force, Tennessee does not have such a "retreat law."

When someone claims self-defense, it is the burden of the prosecutors to refute that claim. Tie goes to the shooter.

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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well, first of all there is no such thing....
as a carjacker, rapist, burglar,or other violent assailant until they have been convicted in a court of law. The reality is as it always was- IE:"tie goes to the shooter" which also means until convicted in a court of law......Hmmmm
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. So you support letting carjackers, rapists, burglars, etc. do their crime and hope LEO can catch
them to be prosecuted, hopefully convicted, and then sentenced?

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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yep, you're 100% right and I love your little cartoon and wish I had a neighbor like you...
Unfortunately I now have several like you...
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. SCOTUS says self-defense is a personal problem and government is not obligated to protect you unless
you are in custody.

I hope you are never a violent crime victim but if you are, I hope you have something with which to defend yourself.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Really? I don't know what my neighbors keep for self-defense...
Most people don't brag about what they have; makes them liable to a break-in. I think your "unfortunate" feelings about those who have guns is analogous to this incident I heard in a bar:

Barroom fuck-up: "I sure wouldn't hang around them damn queers!"
Sensible observer: "You already do. You just don't know it."
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Oddball Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. A Carjacker is..
...someone who hijacks a car by force. Period. But I see your point. If you shoot him before he jacks the car, he's just an assailant. So if I shoot someone who breaks into my home to steal, he's also an assailant.

Got it. Okay guys, from now on we only shoot assailants.
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lazer47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. not just an assailant, he is now a dead assailant and will not do it again
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. No, self-defense shootings are "guilty unless demonstrated otherwise"...
Edited on Sat Jan-05-08 06:31 PM by benEzra
The reality is as it always was- IE:"tie goes to the shooter" which also means until convicted in a court of law......Hmmmm


Actually, a claim of self-defense is what is known as an "affirmative defense"; unlike the regular innocent-until-proven-guilty standard applied to a criminal act, the onus in a self-defense shooting is on the shooter to demonstrate that the shooting WAS indeed justifiable, unless you were defending your home or (in some states) being carjacked, in which there may be a presumption of justifiability. In other words, in a self-defense case, the standard is "guilty unless shown innocent," and if the shooting is questionable, it is much more likely to swing against the person claiming self-defense than it is to swing in their favor.

The general criteria that must be met for a homicide to be ruled justifiable are very similar in every state. The best phrasing I have found so far is in Steve Johnson, Concealed Carry Handgun Training, North Carolina Justice Academy, 1995, pp. 3-4, but these criteria would apply in pretty much every state.

(1) Justified Self-Defense

A citizen is legally justified in using deadly force against another if and only if:

(a) The citizen actually believes deadly force is necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, AND

(b) The facts and circumstances prompting that belief would cause a person of ordinary firmness to believe deadly force WAS necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, AND

(c) The citizen using deadly force was not an instigator or aggressor who voluntarily provoked, entered, or continued the conflict leading to deadly force, AND

(d) Force used was not excessive -- greater than reasonably needed to overcome the threat posed by a hostile aggressor."


(Emphasis added.)

Note that ALL FOUR conditions must generally be met in order for a shooting to be ruled justifiable (there is an exception for someone kicking your door in, but we'll get to that in a minute). A handful of states used to add a FIFTH criterion to the list above, that of running away from the imminent lethal threat before turning to defend yourself (and hoping the attacker doesn't kill you while your back is turned). Florida was one of those states, and eliminated it with the new law; most states have never had such a provision to start with.

It should be clarified that reasonable belief does *NOT* mean merely "feeling threatened"; the phrase is a legal term, and its definition in the context of self-defense law is that in paragraph (b) above--i.e., that "the facts and circumstances prompting that belief would cause a person of ordinary firmness to believe deadly force WAS necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault." Merely "feeling threatened" isn't reasonable belief; the belief has to be objectively rational, i.e. there is in fact a guy standing in front of you holding what appears to be a knife in a threatening posture.

There are a few other conditions that may constitute justifiable self-defense; for example, there is a provision in U.S. legal tradition called the Castle Doctrine that says that if someone is making an illegal forced entry into your home (whether by door or window, whatever), you are authorized to use whatever force is necessary to stop them and it would ordinarily be ruled justified; the presumption is that if the guy is kicking your door down, he's not there to sell magazine subscriptions. A majority of states explicitly spell out the Castle Doctrine in their laws, I believe, but the principle is there in every state, even Massachusetts. Florida, and most other states, also allow the use of lethal force to stop a "forcible felony," i.e. rape, aggravated assault, armed robbery, etc.
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wow, who could have predicted
that that would happen?
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L1A1Rocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
5. Good Title
"With more people carrying guns, self-defense killings on increase"

I like the sound of that!!!! Time for us mere citizens to do what the justice systeme apparently cannot.
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east texas lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. Well...
Well I believe Texas has recently modified it's laws pertaining to "retreat before shooting"
making it legal to defend one's self or loved ones without retreating outside the "castle".
I.E., in public. A welcome modification, I might add. Citizens legally going about their
daily affairs should be able to protect themselves no matter where they happen to be.
The law should assist the survival of the law abiding, not hinder it.
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