Anyone here have solar panels on home?

[rockyandmax]

I'm in AZ now and have been investigating having 4 - 5 KW worth of panels installed on my home. The local utility has a pretty good program and pays $3 per watt and this works out to be roughly half the system price. It actually seems like a pretty good deal to me, but it bothers me that I do not see panels on many homes around here. Anyone else have any insight?

[Lex1775]

1. Welcome...

To the seventh layer of hell! Kidding. B-)

My wife and I are currently saving up for solar panels right now (we are also in AZ). She doesn't really care about it but I would very much like to be able to live "off the grid". I think you don't see a whole lot of people out here using them because the startup costs are pretty high. Between panels, installtion, battery banks, etc I'm looking at around 12-14 grand. And that is for a midrange power output. Some of the higher output systems are up towards the 20 grand mark.

[rockyandmax]

4. We will be on grid

but I certainly know all about hell as I lived here some years back and have lived through many of the summers!!

I admit I'm not looking at it so much to carbon emissions or save the planet but more an investment. Electricity costs are much higher here than they used to be (and I suppose I have more stuff than before too) and we will probably retire here, so this is a way to limit our future utility costs.

Since we are on-grid, I'm wanting to stay away from energy storage and batteries which makes everything a little cheaper.

Here are the type of systems I am looking at

http://www.americanpv.com/pdf/res_on/prices.pdf

Just trying to do some calculations and it appears the amount we would save today on electrical costs would more or less equal what we would pay to borrow the banks money. And in the future, electrical prices are going no place but up, which makes it a better deal for me.

[peacebird]

2. we have solar panels on our roof and solar hot water heater too in Virginia

The solar hot water heater will pay for itself in about 3 or 4 years - it took a HUGE chunk off our power bill. The panels are a long term investment looking at making our retirement energy bills more affordable. We considered the upfront cost as pricey but worth it because the utility deregulation means next year our electric rates could go up 75% like they did in Maryland. Our electric bills are generally about $60 in the winter (wood heat helps there) and about $75 in the summer for a 2600 sq foot home.
We are looking at adding in a battery backup system, and adding a little wind power and maybe a microhydro in the river. Each of those could supplement the system in inclement weather.

Perhaps the reason you haven't seen more panels is the upfront cost?

[rockyandmax]

5. Yep

>he panels are a long term investment looking at making our retirement energy bills more affordable<

Exactly what we have in mind!

[wundermaus]

9. High efficiency, low head Hydro electric power

Scots inventor cracks centuries-old puzzle
PAT HURST

IT IS a mechanical problem that has troubled scientists since Archimedes and the ancient Greeks, but now a Scottish electrician has come up with the answer - and it could help consumers save thousands of pounds in energy bills.

Ian Gilmartin, 60, has invented a mini water wheel capable of supplying enough electricity to power a house - for free...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/6221073.stm

Cheap energy hope from waterwheel
Two Cumbrian friends have come up with an invention they claim could help consumers save thousands of pounds in energy bills.

Ian Gilmartin, 60, and Bob Cattley, 58, both from Kendal, say their mini-waterwheel could supply enough free electricity to power a house.

The device is designed to be used in homes close to small rivers or streams.

They secured a £15,000 grant from the Lake District National Park to build a working prototype near Windermere.

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=5492007

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bgoodsel/solar/blog.htm

Solar shingles sound interesting...

http://www.uni-solar.com/interior.asp?id=74

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bgoodsel/solar/blog.htm

[johnnypneumatic]

3. also in az, I was looking into it

it looked to be a good thing, the utility pays for about half of it, and there are also $3000 in first year tax credits between state and federal. Still it would be expensive, so I havent gone for it yet, may wait 2 more years and get an equity loan, hoping the newer technologies lower the price in that time.
There are reports of more efficient panels that can use infrared and are 30% efficient, compared to the current 8 to 12%, and also something about new materials that could even be painted on.
If it pays for summer afternoon air conditioning bills it would be worth it, and if you are on grid you can sell extra power back to the utility and negate your power draw from the utility at night.
Going off grid cost more because you have to have a big battery to store power for nights.

[rockyandmax]

11. Hi johnny

As far as the summer A/C bill... we are on the same wavelength. Heat did not bother me 20 years ago but as I'm getting older, I like my AC!!

I will not repeat what I said in other message but I don't see using batteries at this point anyway.

Calculating the payback has been the bugaboo for me and it does not look like such a great deal, until you start looking at the amount of money you save today versus the cost of the money... and then it starts looking like a good deal.

I don't know... I guess I'm still thinking and just wanted input from the people here. Glad I have run into some locals dealing with exactly the same issues I have.

[Gregorian]

6. I'm getting close.

But I still have to find my next place. That should happen shortly. And when it does, I'm going photovoltaic, and an electric car.


Having said that, the typical American household is 100-200 amps at the service entrance. To do what a "normal" household does requires a 10kW system. That's not inexpensive.

But efficiencies are going up. And consumers are starting to see the new energy economy, and investing. So I expect efficiencies to go up, and prices to go down.

Hot tubs, and three kids taking hot showers, and heating a house all add up. Of course I'm being facetious to an extent.

I'll be blabbing all over this forum ad nauseum, if and when I actually find my next place.

The bottom line is, in America it's still 1960, in terms of energy. But it's shortly coming to an end. Too bad we gave Bush a trillion dollars. We had it all. But this is where we start anew.

[TreasonousBastard]

7. Up here on Long Island, NY, where...

we don't get nearly the sun you do, I have friends who installed panels and by 10 AM on a sunny day the meter runs backwards more often than not.

Most of the people I know who looked into it and haven't bought into it are convinced there is no payback up here, but apparantly they just never bothered to talk to anyone who installed the panels.

Or, they refuse to make some adjustments in their own lives, like replacing inefficient lights and appliances, getting rid of the dryer... An important part of the savings you get from these schemes is re-examining your overall energy use.

[msongs]

8. we looked into it - not even close to being cost effective in so cal nt

[rockyandmax]

10. How did you reach that decision?

The cost analysis is pretty complex but I'm convincing myself that it is a good deal.

Yes, the up front costs are high, but the systems should be good for 40 years or so. I'm convinced the way to look at it is to look at how much it will reduce your utility bill today versus the cost of the money you would have to borrow today. For giggles, assume $20,000 for 20 years and at today's rates, that is ~$150 a month. In my case, I should average a savings of $150 a month from the start, thus making the entire deal a break even one from the start. As utility rates will go up, the deal gets better and better.

I moved back here (AZ) after living near Sacramento and so I'm pretty aware of electrical rates there and they are even higher than here... Of course you may not have the loads we do here in the summer... Anyway, I'm certainly interested in your thought process. Ops... the other part of the picture which I only recently thought of is that this sort of thing instantly increases your home value by more or less the cost of the system. Thus even if I were to change my mind and want to sell in x years, it would not be money lost.

[oldhippie]

18. ...increases your home value ...

I wouldn't be so sure of that. I'm afraid most buyers will not see the value we do in a PV installation. I have not run into that many that are "atuned" to the savings. I'm a great fan of PV, and have had a small system running my ham radio equipment for 15 years, but I've not run into that many folks who would pay any extra for a "bunch of ugly looking pannels on the roof."

[roody]

20. The panels are not ugly.

Asphalt shingles could be called ugly. My pv array added more to the value of my house than it cost. I also have NO electric bill. I accumulate a large negative balance spring, summer, and fall, and I spend it in winter.

[oldhippie]

22. Eye of the beholder........

I don't think they're ugly, either, but a lot of people do.

Just curious, what state are you in? Must be one that allows net metering? I wish they all did that.

[roody]

25. California, and the electric company is my city.

[roody]

12. I've had grid tie for 8 years.

With tax credits and utility rebate, it cost less than 10,000, done by a contractor. If you are handy, you could do it yourself and just bring in an electrician to hook everything up. Getting my electricity from the sun is priceless.

[NMDemDist2]

13. I had them on a home i built with my ex

we used them for hot water and passive heating/cooling by incorporating 500sf of tile with pipes running underneath. Hot water in the winter (with help from the Franklin stove) and cold water in summer ran under the tiles in the center of the house. the franklin stove kept the downstairs toasty along with the warm floor. we had a 200 gal water tank in the garage.

the house was 3000sf and we never did get around to installing the HVAC units. This was in the central valley of California.

worked like a dream. but we didn't have them generate electricity

[roody]

14. That's what I need to complement the pv and get off natural gas.

[Kolesar]

15. There is more bang for the buck if you replace inefficient products in your home first

Attack the lighting, refrigerator, furnace blower, and consumer products with high standby power first. Then your PV requirements will be much smaller.

[4dsc]

16. Here, here

Yes there are many things you can do around the house to reduce you electic use, I suggest unplugging all unused appliances as we all should know that electicity "leaks".

[suziedemocrat]

17. Tell me more about efficient furnace blowers.

Even though we have a gas furnace, our electric bills plumented this spring when we stopped using the furnace. It must have been the furnace blower that is electric that was eating up all that electricity.

[Kolesar]

24. A blower with a variable-speed, permanent magnet motor would use 1/2 the energy of an induction moto

The product literature for the Carrier/Bryant furnace I was buying only had relative bar charts expressing that the variable speed motor was more efficient. Years later, I found a study published by a California university that proposed permanent magnet motors with an improved blower design as an energy efficiency improvement. I think the savings were about 200 kW*hour/year. I cannot seem to find the study in my bookmarks or emails now. I recall that these positive results were only counting heating season--a consumer could save much more in the cooling season.

Apparently, there is an attribute of induction motors that they draw the same current regardless of the mechanical load on the shaft. Don't quote me on that, though. The permanent magnet rotor motor with semiconductor electronics driving the motor windings is a much more efficient design.

You live in a state where the economics of buying a high-efficiency "condensing" 91% efficient furnace are a toss up compared to a normal 80% furnace. But the only way for you to get the efficient motor is to buy a condensing furnace and then pay a few hundred dollars more for the variable speed motor.

I am sure that if we have more winters like 2006 when the price of natural gas peaked at $17/million cubic feet, the economics of the efficient furnace will be more compelling.

Does this make sense?

[suziedemocrat]

26. So I can't just replace the motor and keep my existing furnance?

Bummer. I don't understand a lot of what you said, but I will show it to my brother who understands this kind of stuff. Thanks a lot!

[Kolesar]

27. I googled up a link to a study that says "actual field results" are not-so-advantageous

http://ees.ead.lbl.gov/bibliography/bpm_motors_in_residential

Conference Paper, 2006 ACEEE Summer Study on Energy Efficiency in Buildings, August 13-18, 2006
2006-05-12

LBNL-59866

Abstract:
Residential gas furnaces contain blowers to distribute warm air. Currently, furnace blowers use either a Permanent Split Capacitor (PSC) or a Brushless Permanent Magnet (BPM) motor. Blowers account for the majority of furnace electricity consumption. Therefore, accurate determination of the blower electricity consumption is important for understanding electricity consumption of furnaces. The electricity consumption of blower motors depends on the static pressure across the blower. This paper examines both types of blower motors in non-condensing non-weatherized gas furnaces at a range of static pressures. Fan performance data is based on manufacturer product literature and laboratory tests. We use field-measured static pressure in ducts to get typical system curves to calculate how furnaces would operate in the field. We contrast this with the electricity consumption of a furnace blower operating under the DOE test procedure and manufacturer rated conditions. Furnace electricity use is also affected by operating modes that happen at the beginning and end of each furnace firing cycle. These operating modes are the pre-purge and post-purge by the draft inducer, the on-delay and off-delay of the blower, and the hot surface ignitor operation. To accurately calculate this effect, we use the number of firing cycles in a typical California house in the Central Valley of California. Cooling hours are not considered in the DOE test procedure. We also account for furnace blower use by the air conditioner and stand-by power. Overall BPM motors outperform PSC motors, but the total electricity savings are significantly less than projected using the DOE test procedure conditions. The performance gains depend on the static pressure of the household ducts, which are typically much higher than in the test procedures.

http://www-library.lbl.gov/docs/LBNL/598/66/PDF/LBNL-59866.pdf

Conclusions

The results indicate furnaces with BPM motors outperform furnaces with PSC motors,
but the gains depend greatly on the static pressure. For the climate conditions studied, our results
show the field electricity consumption by furnaces with BPM motors is much higher than
projected under DOE test procedure and manufacturer rating operating conditions. Although
BPM furnaces show electricity savings compared to PSC furnaces, the savings are significantly
smaller under field operating conditions. To show significant savings a BPM furnace needs to be
installed in a house with low-pressure-loss duct systems.
In addition, standby power consumption in BPM furnaces is significantly higher than for
PSC furnaces and accounts for about one-fifth to one-quarter of the total electricity consumption
by BPM furnaces. This is not currently accounted for in the EAE parameter in the DOE test
procedure. Review of the EAE procedure is warranted if further analysis in other (heatingdominated)
climates confirms our results, because furnace electricity consumption is significant.
Overall, it appears the BPM motors used in furnaces offer electricity savings, but under
the field conditions analyzed the savings are much smaller than estimated under DOE test
procedure and manufacturer rated operating conditions.

[rockyandmax]

19. Already have done this.

All kitchen applicances are energy star. All lighting is CPF. Heat pump is an effiency rating of 12 (min now is 13 I believe) so that will be updated at some point.

[roody]

21. Absolutely!

I read your message "There is more brag for the buck..." True for efficiency and pv panels. Also put all your remote things on a power strip and turn it off when not in use.

[Name removed]

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