I need some enlightenment on Hydrogen Tech

[WLKjr]

I would like to be 'edumacated'(okay okay educated) on Hydrogen Tech. as an alternative fuel. I get into arguments all the time with people on why hydrogen would be such a better way to power vehicles and to produce power for homes. The biggest thing I hear from them is "Yeah, what will you do with all that 'heavy' water? and "Hydrogen fuel cells are not safe. if your in an accident you will explode and it will be like a mini h-bomb." I have read some science sites and it contradicts everything they tell me.

Could anyone set me straight so I feel better and more informed when I discuss this with them next?

[Richardo]

1. Hydrogen fuel cells are not nuclear....

...no heavy water, no h-bombs. :eyes:

Hydrogen IS highly flammable (see the Hindenberg below).



The biggest problem is that to produce hydrogen in any quantity you have to collect it from other chemical processes, like burning natural gas or oil refining.

Therefore, hydrogen fuel cells do eliminate pollution from internal combustion engines (the by product is ordinary water), but they do NOT eliminate the burning of fossil fuels.

Bottom line: You're still burning fossil fuels, only moved 'upstream' from your car.

[smiley_glad_hands]

2. people already could die from an explosion

with gasoline. The real problem is how you get all that hydrogen without creating any greenhouse gases. Burning it is not a problem.

[ret5hd]

3. i'd search for some educateder friends...

if they think heavy water and nuclear explosions are the problem with hydrogen power.

more of a problem (from what i have read) is the fact that:

1) if hydrocarbons (oil) is used as a hydrogen source, you are still tied to a non-renewable fuel source

2) if water is used as a fuel source, cracking the hydrogen atom from the oxygen atom uses more energy than it produces

[Richardo]

5. "educateder" HA!

thank you, Mr President! :D

[immoderate]

10. Freeing hydrogen will always use more energy than it produces,

unless you can get greater than 100% efficiency.

The problem is to find cheap, non-polluting, renewable sources of energy to produce the hydrogen, which is not an energy source but a way of conveniently storing and transporting energy. The likes of solar, tidal, geo-thermal, and wind would have to be the real sources of the energy.

I once roughly calculated that the area of solar panel needed to equal our national energy requirement is the same as the area of rooftop in the US. Coincidence?

--IMM

[ChemEng]

13. A real coincidence is

that there are 24 beers in a case and 24 hours in a day. That is a very eerie coincidence.

[Wilber_Stool]

4. One of the biggest problems

is that it would require a completely new infrastructure. Unlike propane, liquid hydrogen has to be kept cold in a Dewar flask (thermos bottle)to be stored efficiently.

[greenman3610]

6. one good site

is Amory Lovins Rocky Mountain Institute

www.rmi.org


leading advocate of hydrogen economy.
also
wired magazine has done a lot on this

http://search.wired.com/wnews/default.asp?query=hydrogen%20cars

[jpak]

7. Check out these links...

Hydrogen fuel cell animation...

http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/animation.html

http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/fc.html

More PEM fuel cell info...

http://www.bmwworld.com/hydrogen/pem_fuel_cell.htm

The solar-hydrogen cycle...

http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/solarh2cycle.html

THE SCHATZ SOLAR HYDROGEN PROJECT (check it out)

http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/trinidad.html

Here's some links to Ballard Corp. (leading manufacturer of hydrogen fuel cells)

http://www.ballard.com/tD.asp?pgid=755

http://www.ballard.com/tD.asp?pgid=700&dbid=0

BTW: the "heavy water" and "mini H-bomb" arguements are bullshit...

[immoderate]

8. Hydrogen is not nuclear

Gasoline is hydrogen combined with carbon. Remove the carbon, which is less efficient and combines with oxygen to create carbon dioxide, the most prominent greenhouse gas. That leaves just the Hydrogen which when burnt in an internal combustion engine, or used as a source for fuel cell, only produces water.

Hydrogen is mostly produced from natural gas by a steam-reforming process. In the future, it will have to be replaced by a renewable process, wind or solar as a source of energy for electrolysis.

The Hindenberg fire originated in the cotton fabric of the ship. If you keep your hydrogen in a metal tank, there is no more danger than from a gas barbecue.

I recommend The Hydrogen Economy by Jeremy Rifkin.

--IMM

[Sinistrous]

9. Check out the May, 2004 Scientific American.

Pretty much skewers the whole scam.

[earthside]

15. Indeed

I was just going to suggest the Scientific American article. Sorry to say ... but hydrogen is not going to be the technology that saves us.

[WLKjr]

11. Thanks for all th3 info!

n/t

[Viking12]

12. National Academy of Sciences

Hydrogen Economy Offers Major Opportunities
But Faces Considerable Hurdles


WASHINGTON -- A transition to hydrogen as a major fuel in the next 50 years could significantly change the U.S. energy economy, reducing air emissions and expanding domestic energy resources, but technical, economic, and infrastructure barriers need to be overcome, says a new report from the National Academies' National Academy of Engineering and National Research Council. In the best case scenario, the transition to a hydrogen economy would take many decades, and any reductions in oil imports and carbon dioxide emissions are likely to be minor during the next 25 years, said the committee that wrote the report.

"Our study suggests that while hydrogen is a potential long-term energy approach for the nation, the government should keep a balanced portfolio of research and development efforts to enhance U.S. energy efficiency and develop alternative energy sources," said committee chair Michael Ramage, retired executive vice president at ExxonMobil Research and Engineering, Moorestown, N.J.

In last year's State of the Union address, President Bush announced a $1.2 billion hydrogen fuel initiative which, combined with the existing FreedomCAR (Cooperative Automotive Research) initiative at the U.S. Department of Energy, aims to make it practical and cost-effective to use clean, hydrogen-powered vehicles by 2020. But the new initiative has technological and economic challenges to overcome, and concerns about cost, environmental impact, and safety need to be addressed, the committee said.

Hydrogen can be produced using fossil fuels such as natural gas and coal; renewable energy sources such as wind, organic matter, and sun; or nuclear energy. Currently hydrogen is produced in large quantities at reasonable cost for industrial purposes by breaking down natural gas into hydrogen and carbon dioxide. But to achieve widespread use of hydrogen, especially as a fuel for automobiles, it must be produced cost-effectively either in large plants or in smaller facilities at or near vehicle fueling stations. If the hydrogen is produced in large plants, infrastructure must be put in place to distribute it to fueling stations. And hydrogen storage technologies must be developed for vehicles that will give consumers the range between refuelings that they expect, the committee said


http://www4.nationalacademies.org/news.nsf/isbn/0309091632?OpenDocument

[ChemEng]

14. Hydrogen is not cheap....

compared to its source feedstock; i.e. natural gas. First, natural gas is reacted with water in a process called steam-methane reforming to produce a mixture of hydrogen, carbon monoxide, and carbon dioxide. The CO is further reacted with water in the water gas shift reaction to produce hydrogen and carbon dioxide. Then pure hydrogen is recovered from the carbon dioxide by use of an adsorbent. It takes energy to make hydrogen, and it isn't 100% efficient.

When one includes recovery for the capital costs, hydrogen production from natural gas costs 1.4 to 1.6 times the fuel value of natural gas. And that is for producing hydrogen in its vapor form. If you want liquid hydrogen, refrigeration costs are additional, and they will eat you alive! And then you need to add distribution costs in to get to a final product price.

My question is why in the world would you degrade a valuable resource like natural gas to produce hydrogen for a car? The only way to make hydrogen for a car is to use a renewable resource such as solar power to electrolyze water into hydrogen.