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Nuclear power industry is profitable only because Government picks up so much of the costs.

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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 04:07 PM
Original message
Nuclear power industry is profitable only because Government picks up so much of the costs.
Edited on Wed Dec-27-06 04:22 PM by JohnWxy
The nuclear power industry has still to build a successful commercial demonstration nuclear power plant because this power source would not be profitable without generous government subsidies.

This is supposed to be a mature industry (they've been trying to make it work for 40 yrs) yet they still need billions of dollars of public funds to prop them up. Without the supportof public moneys the cost of nuclear energy would be beyond what anybody would be willing to pay. Even WITH public support it is still more expensive than other sources of electric power.

Here are a few notes on the latest energy bill which included liberal public help for nuclear power industry.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nuclear Giveaways in the Energy Bill Conference Report

For a PDF version of this document, click here:
http://www.citizen.org/cmep/energy_enviro_nuclear/electricity/energybill/2005/articles.cfm?ID=13779

The energy bill conference report (H.R.6, “The Energy Policy Act of 2005”) negotiated between House and Senate conferees contains more than $13 billion in cradle-to-grave subsidies and tax breaks, as well as unlimited taxpayer-backed loan guarantees, limited liability in the case of an accident, and other incentives to the mature nuclear industry to build new nuclear reactors.
~~
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Construction subsidies = $3.25 billion +

Authorization of $2 billion in “risk insurance” to pay the industry for any delays in construction and operation licensing for 6 new reactors, including delays due to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission or litigation. The payments would include interest on loans and the difference between the market price and the contractual price of power


Authorization of more than $1.25 billion from FY2006 to FY2015 and “such sums as are necessary” from FY2016 to FY2021 for a nuclear plant in Idaho to generate hydrogen fuel, a boondoggle that would make a mockery of clean energy goals


Exemption of construction and operation license applications for new nuclear reactors from an NRC antitrust review


Unlimited taxpayer-backed loan guarantees for up to 80% of the cost of a project, including building new nuclear power plants. Authorizes “such sums as are necessary,” but if Congress were to appropriate funding for loan guarantees covering six nuclear reactors, this subsidy could potentially cost taxpayers approximately $6 billion (assuming a 50% default rate and construction cost per plant of $2.5 billion, as Congressional Budget Office has estimated)
Operating subsidies = $5.7 billion +


Reauthorization of the Price-Anderson Act, extending the industry’s liability cap to cover new nuclear power plants built in the next 20 years

Incentives for “modular” reactor designs (such as the pebble bed reactor, which has never been built anywhere in the world) by allowing a combination of smaller reactors to be considered one unit, thus lowering the amount that the nuclear operator is responsible to pay under Price-Anderson


Weakens constraints on U.S. exports of bomb-grade uranium


Production tax credits of 1.8-cent for each kilowatt-hour of nuclear-generated electricity from new reactors during the first 8 years of operation for the nuclear industry, costing $5.7 billion in revenue losses to the U.S. Treasury through 2025. Considered one of the most important subsidies by the nuclear industry


Shut-down subsidies = $1.3 billion

Changes the rules for nuclear decommissioning funds that are to be used to clean up closed nuclear plant sites by repealing the cost of service requirement for contributions to a fund and allowing the transfer of pre-1984 decommissioning costs to a qualified fund, costing taxpayers $1.3 billion
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This of course is only looking at cost issues. This does not even address the serious question of whether it's possible to store nuclear waste for tens of thusands of years and can we actually find places to store all the waste generated by hundreds or thousands of new nukes.

As I said they still haven't had a commercial demonstration nuclear power plant. What the nuclear industry does is transfer much of the costs to the Government (you and me) and then say it's profitable (by excluding millions of dollars of costs from the calculation).

For a realistic evaluation of nuclear power costs we need to consider ALL the costs involved including the costs picked up by the Government.


from Diane Faistein's statement opposing subsidies to nuclear power:
http://feinstein.senate.gov/03Releases/r-nuclear.htm

"In the past 50 years, California has licensed five nuclear power plants and one experimental reactor. Today, just two of these nuclear power plants are still operating in the State. The plant at San Onofre (operating at diminished capacity) and Diablo Canyon nuclear power plants provide 4,400 megawatts of power in California - close to a fifth of California's energy supply.

Impressive as these numbers may be in terms of the power-generating capacity of nuclear energy, they tell only part of the story of California's experiment with nuclear power. Of six nuclear power plants built in California, four have been decommissioned due to high operating costs and excessive risk:

In the late 1950s, an experimental reactor at the Rocketdyne site in Ventura County was shut down after a severe meltdown.

In 1967, the Vallecitos plant closed its doors after 10 years of operating because its owner, General Electric, was unable to obtain accident insurance due to the high risk of operating a nuclear power plant.

In 1976, the plant at Humboldt Bay shut its doors after 13 years of operation as a result of the discovery of a fault line near the plant that would have required millions of dollars in seismic retrofits.

And in 1989, the Rancho Seco plant near Sacramento was closed by public referendum after 14 years of operation plagued by mismanagement that resulted in cost overruns.

Nuclear power is expensive and risky, yet I believe that if private investors are not willing to put their own money on the line to support new nuclear plants, then the Federal government should not put taxpayers' money at risk either. However, under the nuclear subsidy provision in this Energy Bill, taxpayers would be required to subsidize up to 50 percent of construction costs of new nuclear plants - costs that the Congressional Research Service (CRS) estimates to be in the range of $14-16 billion dollars. CRS also estimates that the risk of default on these loan guarantees to be "very high - well above 50 percent."

I strongly believe it is NOT in the public interest for our nation to subsidize costly nuclear plants. Instead we should devote more resources to the development of renewable energy.

Mr. President, I strongly believe that we should be doing more to encourage the development of renewable power like solar, wind, geothermal, and biomass, instead of providing subsidies to an industry that has not built a new power plant since the 1970s. Unfortunately this energy bill currently has an over-reliance on promoting traditional energy resources, such as nuclear power.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. So I'm guessing...
..You are also opposed to government funded R&D and subsidies for solar, hydro, ethanol and wind, right? Oh, and "clean" coal and sequestration, naturally.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Subsidies to establish worthwhile (GHG reduction) new, untried technologies
is entirely different than subsidies for a mature industry which already enjoys market share(because of 40+ years of subsidies). We have been through this before. IT's basic economics. We are in a situation where we do not have time for the market to develop new techologies. also, its' not a revolutionary insight to observe that established industries can keep new technologies from gaining enough market share so as to become profitable and self-sustaining.

Investment in REnewable fuels/energy technologies is a perfect example of subsidies well invested. We should have been supporting these technologies more than we have been. Teh fossi fuel industries have loyal friends in the GOP. OF course millions of dollars bouoght that friendship.http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.asp?Ind=E01




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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Have you heard about the new solar technology, CPV?
40% efficient at $4 a watt installed. Out of R&D and shipping soon!



23 feet across, 6.6 kW! 1 acre per Mw instead of 5 acres per MW. Changes all the economics of solar.

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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Only a little bit - as an R&D item.
jPak posted something about this a while back. Your info is about a manufactured unit ready for sale. NOw I didnt' know it had gotten that far! HEre is some more:

http://www.technewsworld.com/story/54375.html

Former NASA Chief Architect Brad Hines on Solar Power's Comeback
Print Version
By Jennifer LeClaire
TechNewsWorld
11/24/06 4:00 AM PT

Solar investment veterans RockPort Capital Partners and Nth Power recently led a US$8 million Series A round for Practical Instruments. The company plans to use the funds to launch a product that it hopes will give it the market lead over competitors Greenvolt and Solofocus. Investors believe the company has the technology and the leadership to make it happen.

After more than 14 years designing and implementing NASA-grade opto-mechanical systems, Practical Instruments CEO and CTO Brad Hines, along with an experienced team, decided to focus on a solar solution designed with the key market demands in mind.

Hines believes that the company's flagship product, Heliotube, will reduce installation and materials costs while supporting the corporate mantra: reduce the cost, not the power.

~~

(more)
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Pyron leaves Heliotube in the gigawatt dust...
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 06:10 PM
Original message
can you provide a link? NOt doubting you, just interested enough to want to read more.
Edited on Thu Dec-28-06 06:35 PM by JohnWxy
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Mankind has been making ethanol for at least 5,000 years
-and using it as fuel since the early 19th century: I don't think it can be classed as new and untried by any stretch.

Just be honest and admit that your definition of "worthwhile" doesn't include nuclear because, although it generates shitloads of GHG-free power, you simply don't like it.
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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Ethanol was eliminated as a fuel in the US...
by prohibition. Now it is still (no pun intended) illegal for an individual to make on his own. Just sayin'.

Bill
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Indeed...
and if the damn stupid laws against distillation (in most countries) are lifted we might see a lot coming back into use: Although I'm not as vocal as John on the subject, I'm actually quite a fan of ethanol (even wasted as fuel :D).

But it's hardly a "new, untried" technology - we're already pretty good at it, and it a cheap, easy way to make small amounts of fuel, at least on an individual level: Scaling it up shouldn't be a problem, at least from a chemical processing point of view. That it therefore qualifies for a subsidy in Wxy's mind as opposed to, say, an Integral Fast Reactor (invented in '84, eats nuclear waste, but hasn't been built yet) is simply bizarre.

Unless you think being anti-nuclear is more important than saving the biosphere, that is.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Jesus! i am for support for true R&D efforts for nuclear power technology
Edited on Thu Dec-28-06 06:55 PM by JohnWxy
But if you would read my original post (and moreso the link) those subsidies are to support supposedly commercial plants - supporting construction costs and decommmissioning costs. I'm saying if it's not a commercially self supporting industry lets not say that it is. Without government subsidies it wouldn't exist. Private capital alone would not support it.

But as an R&D project, it is very large and has been going on for about 40 years. Generally you do the R&D until you think you are ready for a demo plant. You the build a demo plant to run it for a few years to see if you are ready to go fully commercial.

BTW the 50 cent subsidy per gallon of ethanol blended is paid to the oil refinery for blending a gallon of ethanol with gasoline.


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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. My apologies...
I was getting your post and the article mixed up. :dunce:

Although in that case, how do you feel about home PV subsidies? :evilgrin:
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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Personally...
I believe in taxation and subsidies to promote policy. I disagree with the policies being promoted at present with my tax dollars. I too am anti-nukular.

>Unless you think being anti-nuclear is more important than saving the biosphere, that is.
This is called a straw-man argument. Please accept that there are more than those two choices.

Bill
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Ethanol has been made as a beverage for thousands of years. As a fuel, on a large scale, about
50 years. The oil companies used to market it as an Ethyl gas in the 50's.

"its' not a revolutionary insight to observe that established industries can keep new technologies from gaining enough market share so as to become profitable and self-sustaining."

Ethanol only became economically practical when oil passed about $45 to $50 a barrel. Oil companies are again putting ethanol into gasoline to replace MTBE. But other than that they are not too inclined to see ethanol grow in supply as they can't control the price and it has the potential to cut into their business. Oak Ridge National Laboratory - bio-fuels can meet 1/3rd gasoline demand.

Using subsidies to help ethanol get up to a volume of production where it is cheap enough to compete on its own makes perfect economic (and national security sense - less vulnerability to oil supply disruption). ANy commodity needs to achieve a high volume to achieve economies of scale. But ethanol can't get up to those volumes unless it can be found by consumers. the oil companies while they are willing to use it as an additive to replace MBTE, are not interested in providing a potential competing fuel, so government action in the interest of the country is appropriate. As ethanol is more available to the consumer and volume of production increases greater economies of scale can be achieved and subsidies won't need to be continued.

NOw oil industry is a mature industry and operates at huge scale so one may wonder why do they enjoy such massive subsidies. the answer to that is political: Oil and Gas contributions to GOP)

If all the subsidies to oil were stopped various estimates place the unsupported price of gas at various points north of $5.00 per gallon. so you see, ethanol could compete right now WITHOUT subsidies if gasoline didnt get it's subsidies.




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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I think your history is a little off...
...you might find wiki's Timeline_of_alcohol_fuel informative, but that's a side issue. You're right that subsidies can be used either to give a new technology a leg-up, or to keep an existing technology on top: As you'll see on the time-line, it was our old friends at the API that stuffed biofuel in the '30s by blocking a subsidy (hosing the American people to make a fast buck - nothing new under the sun) even though they had enjoyed tax breaks since 1916: Coal has been subsidised in the US since 1932, FWIW.

All of which is a side issue. What I'm trying to find out is why you think nuclear power deserves to be singled out for your attention. You are notably not ranting about the billions subsidising oil and coal in the same bill, even though they are the technologies that are permanently fucking our planet.

The only reason I can think of, is that you think climate change is some distant threat that will be met by technologies that are not yet ready. In which case I'd suggest you put your money where your mouth is and move to Ghoramara.

Take a snorkel.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. so instead we are supposed to fight oil wars???
:shrug:
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
9. The nuclear industry collected more than 56 billion revenues per year.
I know that you have real, real, real bad difficulty with the numbers that require arithmetic, and your "subsidies" don't represent real payouts, but if you're dreaming that anyone is going to take you seriously, you should be able to account for government spending of $65 billion dollars a year.

You can't.

Nobody gives a fuck what you say, not in Japan, not in France, not in the Netherlands, not in China, not in South Africa, not in Finland, not in Belgium, not in Romania, not in Argentina and not in the United States.

More than 30 new exajoules of primary nuclear energy are on the way, representing between 0.5 to 1.0 trillion dollars. Nobody is investing trillion dollar sums based on data that JohnnyWxy could understand. On the contrary, in making this investment, they have relied wholly on serious, clear thinking people.

I personally believe that governments around the world should invest 9 trillion dollars in nuclear infrastructure to ban coal within the next 15 years. It is certainly technically feasible. The Governments could then either sell the reactors or use them to collect revenues.

In the United States, in 2005, the revenues for power delivery amounted to almost 300 billion dollars. I estimate that we could generate 100% of US electricity with about 350 reactors. If each were built at a cost of $4 billion dollars, the US cost would be about 1.4 trillion dollars. In return our electrical energy supply would be clean, safe and readily available for sixty years. The costs for the plants amortized over 60 years (neglecting interest since they would be paid directly with tax money) would be about $23 billion per year. This is a tiny investment for the infrastructure that could eliminate the bulk of US climate change impact, shut most of the US coal mines, clean our air, stop poisoning our rivers with mercury and other heavy metals (including uranium), etc. etc.

Moreover, since the O&M costs of nuclear plants are trivial in comparison to the capital costs, and the fuel costs are trivial as well, the US gov't if it purchased and owned outright 350 nuclear plants would be realizing hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue each year.

I support a nationally owned nuclear industry. If we want to privatize it, we could of course, but what a cash cow!!!! Think of the universities we could build, the health care we could offer, the public transport we could build with all that revenue!!!!!

The United States spends $23 billion in a few weeks on oil. Note that for $23 billion the biofuels industry could do almost doodly squat, no matter what they tell you over at the corn lobby.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/esr/table3.xls

Oh and by the way, you Johnnyboy don't pay for the health bills for people who choked to death by coal waste indiscriminately dumped into the atmosphere and water. That's a big fucking subsidy coal boy.
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