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MIT engineers a modified yeast which produces 50% MORE ethanol in LESS time!

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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 03:28 PM
Original message
MIT engineers a modified yeast which produces 50% MORE ethanol in LESS time!
Intelligent minds, motivated people - equals progress. Yes, it can and does happen (in spite of arm-chair "scientists"(self-styled) who preach progress is impossible!)

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2006/biofuels.html

MIT scientists have engineered yeast that can improve the speed and efficiency of ethanol production, a key component to making biofuels a significant part of the U.S. energy supply.
~~

By manipulating the yeast genome, the researchers have engineered a new strain of yeast that can tolerate elevated levels of both ethanol and glucose, while producing ethanol faster than un-engineered yeast. The work is reported in the Dec. 8 issue of Science.
~~
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The high-ethanol-tolerance yeast also proved to be more rapid fermenters: The new strain produced 50 percent more ethanol during a 21-hour period than normal yeast.

(MORE)
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. damn NE yankees. nt
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. Three words
Really big bread!

I'm not sure genetically modifying yeast is such a good idea, since it's a living organism that can easily escape into the wild and start fermenting all kinds of unwanted liquids.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. You don't want your wife/girlfriend to get a yeast infection with this stuff!
I, too, question the sanity of doing a gen mod on yeast. Living organisms have a way of "misbehaving."

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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. two more words...
barley wine!

:beer:

:cheers:
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. Any Manufacturing Plant Manager Knows
that efficiency curves go down enormously over time. The fifth year should be about five times as efficient as the first year. But you have to start doing it. R&D advances only help the process along.

I have not given up on ethanol being an effiicent source of energy. Brazil can do it.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. The Efficiency curve you speak of applies to tasks with significant manual inputs.
This does not apply to industrial scale chemical processing.

"R&D advances ONLY help the process along"? R&D advances are often what transforms an inefficient, uprofitable process into one that is efficient and economically viable. A 50% improvement in efficiency is a "HELP" anybody would be thrilled to get.

Glad to hear you "have not given up on ethanol being an efficient source of energy." - since all the science shows it is, and that it keeps getting more efficient almost with every new ethanol plant built. Given the lack of any cost-effective, green renewable fuel alternative to gasoline this is a good thing indeed.

HEre is another development affecting ethanol efficiency: Iowa State University has filed for patent protection for a process their researchers deveoped applying ultra-sound to the ethanol process which boosts alcohol yield by 30%.






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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. Oh, Oh. Genetic Engineering. Somebody call Greenpeace.
Edited on Wed Dec-20-06 04:37 PM by NNadir
We will hear all kinds of people who know zero science interpret this lab result as a "breakthrough," and carry on with the usual corn lobby mysticism. At the same time we have the Luddites over at Greenpeace - who also know zero science - in a tizzy over how purely evil genetic engineering is.

This would of course be fun to watch, like co-ed mud wrestling maybe, but the most likely outcome of this deal will be the usual nothing at all.

Of course, I'm not familiar with the particulars of Greenpeace stupidity with respect to their gene related paranoia, but I'm sure it's of similar quality to their anti-nuclear paranoia. Also I don't happen to know all that much about genetic engineering. The technique used to "engineer" this strain is called "Global Transcription Machinery Engineering" which works by interfering, via PCR, with the transcription of genes, creating a library of mutants, but I'm certainly not familiar with what the details might mean.

To me it looks like an interesting case of directed evolution, and I have no problem with it, but I'm certainly not stupid enough to understand what Greenpeace might think of it.

From the paper (Science 8 December 2006 314: 1565-1568):

...To evaluate the approach of gTME in a eukaryotic system, two gTME mutant libraries were created from either SPT15 (which encodes the TATA-binding protein) or one of the TATA binding protein–associated factors, in this case, TAF25 (15). The yeast screening and selection was performed in the background of the standard haploid Saccharomyces cerevisiae strain BY4741, which contains the endogenous, unmutated chromosomal copy of SPT15 and TAF25. As such, this genetic screen uses a strain that expresses both the wild-type and mutated versions of the protein and, thus, permits the identification of dominant mutations that lead to novel functions in the presence of the unaltered chromosomal gene. These libraries were transformed into yeast and were selected in the presence of elevated levels of ethanol and glucose. The spt15 mutant library showed modest growth in the presence of 5% ethanol and 100 g/liter of glucose, so the stress was increased in the subsequent
serial subculturing to 6% ethanol and 120 g/liter of glucose. After the subculturing, strains were isolated from plates, and plasmids containing mutant genes were isolated and retransformed into a fresh background, then tested for their capacity to grow in the presence of elevated glucose and ethanol levels. The best mutant obtained from each of these two libraries was assayed in further detail and sequenced. The sequence characteristics of these altered genes conferring the best properties (one Spt15p and one Taf25p) are shown in Fig. 1A.

Each of these mutated genes contained three mutations,with those of spt15 localized to the second repeat element, which consists of a set of b sheets (5, 16). These specific triple mutations in the taf25 and spt15mutant genes are thus referred to as the taf25-300 and spt15-300 mutations. The spt15-300 mutant outperformed the control at all concentrations tested, with the strain harboring the mutant protein providing up to 13-fold improvement in growth yield at some glucose concentrations (Fig. 1B and fig. S1). The taf25-300 mutant was unable to grow in the presence of 6% ethanol, consistent with the observations seen during the enrichment and selection phase. Despite these increases in tolerance, the basal growth rate of these mutants in the absence of ethanol and glucose stress was similar to that of the control. Furthermore, the differences in behavior between the spt15-300 mutant and taf25-300 mutant suggest that mutations in genes encoding different members of the eukaryotic transcription machinery are likely to elicit different (and unanticipated) phenotypic responses.


There is an interesting note in the paper that the mutant is superior since it is able to convert 2 grams per liter per hour. If the result were linear - and probably it's not - this suggests that a reactor filled with a liter of a glucose solution, would be able to produce 48 grams of ethanol in a period of 24 hours. This should give an idea of the economics of the process and the amount of water required for ethanol production since this laboratory result is superior to the existing industrial fermentation scheme. No wonder people question whether ethanol is "worth it."

As it happens talk about research is somewhat nonsensical in connection with global climate change, since climate change is happening now and not in some distant future. Thus, all of the options that will be useful in the approach to energy and climate change are already operating at an exajoule scale. If they are not operating an exajoule scale, they are just talk.

In spite of this "breakthrough," and let's be clear that it has to be the greatest thing since the invention of beer, since it comes from "MIT," and not from the "South Dakota School of Mines," or from "Franklin Pierce College" or from "Orange County Community College," I predict that ethanol will still not come close to displacing a significant amount of oil consumption in the lifetime of anyone now living. This will not stop the corn lobby from spectacularly misinterpreting the results however and demanding further obeisance to their decades of wishful thinking. I would love to be proved wrong, of course, but I won't be. If one allows the corn lobby to transcribe scientific results, one will end up with mutant impressions, and not necessarily the "best mutant," either.

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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. translated to 'merican. "yeah, so what?"
Or to put it more clearly. We cannot convert enough of the biomass in the US to liquid fuels to make up the projected shortfalls of geologic petroleum ever. Never ever. It would leave the US a desert.

OTOH if NNadir gets his way and we build hundreds of thorium fueled molten-salt-reactors that crack water into hydrogen and then hydrolyze that biomass we probably could go on driving SUV's and paving our streets with fuel.

Then we would promptly run into some other limit to growth as we are destroying the environment that supports us. The only long term solution is population reduction and resource conservation programs i.e. NO SUV's.

Your choice.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I'm talking about survival, not SUV's
Grow up.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. I think it's worse than that
I predict that ethanol will still not come close to displacing a significant amount of oil consumption in the lifetime of anyone now living.

Given the nature of the global economy and its appetite for liquid fuels, I predict that ethanol will never displace any fossil fuel consumption whatsoever. We'll still burn all the oil, natural gas and coal, we'll just burn the ethanol and biodiesel in addition to it. Just the thing to keep the consumptive economy expanding.

We're lucky we live on a sphere, otherwise we might eventually start running out of stuff.:sarcasm:
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. I saw this on an I Love Lucy episode. Nyuk. Nyuk. nt
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
11. what a waste
If we talk about 4 billion gallons of ethanol that is currenlty being produced, the net is only 1 billion gallons(EROEI) and that is less than 0.5% of our gasoline usage displaced. Thus redering statements like " a key component to making biofuels a significant part of the U.S. energy supply.{/b] moot!!


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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. People always forget to do the math.
Qualitative statements like "significant" put people back to sleep much better than quantitative ones like ".5%"

On another board a Russian expat was beating me up over my Peak Oil concerns. As evidence that there was lots of oil still to be discovered, he cited a recent discovery by Lukoil in Russia of 600 million barrels of oil! Pointing out that this amounted to less than 8 days of global use, and that since it would would probably be produced over 20 years would add just 1% to the world's oil production seemed to quiet the room.

TPTB depend on some degree of innumeracy in the population to keep things under control.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. don't listen to Oak Ridge National Laboratory's estimate: biofuels could replace>33% of gasoline
(of course with the MIT developed yeast that Could go to 48%)

FORGET about developing biofuels to replace gasoline. It's a waste of time. don't worry about reducing CO2 now. You can wait 20 to 30 years when you develop the fuel cell car. It won't be too late then. You can trust me:





Yes, Keep buying that oil, infidels. I NEED your money.

ha-ha-ha-ha! What's a few thousand lives (your lives!) and $400 Billion for Iraq. Ha-ha-ha!

Send me your young men and women, husbands and wives, sons and daughters. I'll send them back to you, in pieces. Ha-ah-ha-ha. YES, just keep on buying that oil, INFIDELS.
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. coulda, shoulda and woulda
I have a better idea, lets quit listening to our little ethanol corporate hack here..
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Just give me an alternative as good that is available right now.
Coulda? Ethanol is being used right now. The oil companies are replacing MTBE with it now.

Got a better alternative to use until the perfect solution comes along?

HEre's a suggestion for you. Since you want to protect EXXON MOBIL's revenue stream (you must work for them) why don't you go to Iraq and fight for it like so many others are doing , and dieing for it.

How committed to oil are you? Our guys need all the help they can get over there. Want go over and dodge IEDs for Exxon-Mobil? President Cheney will thank you, I'm sure.

I didnt' think so.
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-23-06 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Can you say CONSERVATION!!!
I'm sure you can johnnie.. Its been stated that conservation would save more gasoline than all the ethanol produced!! Just having every automobile's tire pressure at recommended rates would save the American driver 4 billion gallons of gasoline a year. That's fat more than all the ethanol being produced..

And if we would lower all highway speed limits to 55 to 60, we would billions more.. Imagine what that would do to the price of gas??

Or how about rationing??? That would sure drop the price fast..

That's just TWO of the alternatives, although far from perfect as you seem to want but good enough for this example, that we could imcorporate into the American way of life..

That way corn wouldn't be WASTED making ethanol..
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Expanding ethanol doesn't mean you can't be for increased efficiency and other methods of
conservation. I am for conservation and efficiency improvements. That is not an argument for not expanding ethanol, a GHG reducer (relative to gasoline) and more efficient than gasoline (using engines which take advantage of the higher octane of ethanol).

Unforunately conservation will not, by itself, solve the fossil fuel dependency problem. It's going to take finding better fuels than gasoline. In a couple of decades fuel cell vehicles will provide the strongest technology to reduce fossil fuel use in transportation. Free hydrogen in fuel cells will never be employed for general transportation. various hydrocarbos will supply the hydrogen tothe fuel cells. One of hte most promising of these happens to be ethanol (www.acta.com). But if another fuel source comes along that is better than ethanol I will support it. But right now the best bet we have to reduce gasoline usage in the near term is ethanol. This does NOT mean we forget about developing other tehcnologies and techniques to help with glogal warming and energy dependence.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Why not get a little racist while informing people "you can trust me?"
Thanks for the pictures of the "dirty Arab."

Let me get this straight corn boy, wasn't Jimmy Carter making ethanol a big part of his administration's energy plan? Hasn't every Presidential candidate since Jimmy Carter passed through Iowa and kneeled at the altar of ethanol?

What right do you have to come here and criticize any scheme that will take 30 years. The ethanol scheme is more than 30 years old and it has failed to reduce US imports of oil.

You continue to drop the names of institutions suggesting that this gives you credibility. Now you're going racist. No one who is rational should trust you with anything. You're fucking long list of "could" statements are nonsense.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Racist? You really like to employ all the conservative's tools of attack rhetoric to distract and
Edited on Fri Dec-22-06 05:50 PM by JohnWxy

disgust, don't you? Accusing me of being racist is not only repugnant and outrageous but most importantly, without basis.


There really is no difference racially, between me and the United Arab Emirates Supreme Council President Sheik Zayed bin Sultan Al Nahyan (as shown in this Nov. 13, 2001 file photo, at the Presidential Palace in Abu Dhabi).

Arabs just happen to be the ones sitting on the oil - which we lust over. It wouldn't make much sense to show an Eskimo telling me to forget about developing alternatives to gasoline, would it?? - since Eskimos aren't the ones who have the oil. Europeans, Asians, Africans - nobody has a corner on the ability to treat each other badly. We supported tyrants in the Middle East which hasn't won us any friends in many circles there.

When I hear someone proclaim "I'm a good Christian." I think: "give this person a wide birth." HE is capable of doing anything to you, and justifying it neatly to himself. Perfidy (or bad behavior of any kind) is not the personal province of any one ethnic group or nationality. All people show a disconcerting ability to slip into bad behavior.


Your attempt to label me as racist is rediculous, but your use of the conservative's attack rhetoric is only meant to confuse, disrupt and sabotage effective communication. It's easier than coming up with logical arguments for your own positions.

You are just trying to confuse the issue. THe fact is we are paying for oil with lives. Using a replacement we have now for gasoline is desirable.

Of course, I am not criticising any technology that will take time to develop (that is your area). I am, rather obviously, making the point that to do nothing while we wait for another technology to be developed is not an option. Since we have a technology that will help, we should use it while we work on other technologies which will, hopefully, improve on the situation even more (e.g. fuel cells).

No racism, no criticism of technologies which I have promoted on this site (while you have repeatedly said any technology that needs to be developed is waste of time).

As with all conservatives you inspire me to ask: "How LOW can you go?".







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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I find the quote "Send me your young men and women, husbands and wives, sons and daughters...
I'll send them back to you, in pieces. Ha-ah-ha-ha. YES, just keep on buying that oil, INFIDELS," racist.

I don't give a shit what you think about me pointing that out is.



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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-23-06 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. THat was my effort to convey the feelings of Osama Bin Laden and AL Kaeda terrorists in general.
Edited on Sat Dec-23-06 03:46 PM by JohnWxy
I think it's a good representation of his feelings - since he has called on all Moslems to kill Americans. MOst moslems (or Arabs) DO NOT share this attitude, but there are those (Al Kaeda in particular) who do. And as long as we are invading the Middle East to get control of their oil we will be targets of their wrath.

the 'quote' is made up but I think it's an accurate representation of Al Kaeda's view of Americans. I also said, which you didn't mention, that America has supported tyrants in the mid-East and it shouldn't be surprising that there are people there who do not like us. By invading Iraq, you can be sure some people over there are going to develop a resentment of the U.S. -particularly if we stay over-long and they begin to suspect we really want to establish our own influence (using no small amount of military might) there for who know's how long.

The fact remains that Al Kaeda wants to kill AMericans and our continued presence in Iraq (possessed of dubious intentions as far as many Iraqis suspect) only puts us in harms way. Using Ossama bin Laden to represent the AL Kaida isn't racial, it's merely factual.

NOte that I know MOST muslims DO NOT want to kill Americans, but as long as we are so dependent on oil we will be asserting our influence in the mid-East to an extent which will be resented by many in the mid-East and certainly will give the Al Kaeda and (by the way) growing nationalists argument to organize campaigns against us. The pictures are of Arabs because they are the ones with the oil - and it is there land we have invaded. There is no racism involved.

As I said, also, there is no difference racially between me and the people of the mid-east anyway. YOu continue to relish the use of Conservative attack rhetoric rather than sticking to the point. JOe McCarthy used to wave papers and say "I have proof" - ostensibly of Communist sympathizer activity on the part of his victims. But he never showed his "proof" - because there was none. Anyway your attacks are just an attempt to talk about anything rather than staying on the subject. ONe of the hallmarks of the Conservative disinformation strategy.


The point is - we are losing lives to secure oil. We need to develop alternatives to gasoliine as quickly as possible. Ethanol is an alternative that works right now. While we develop any and all other promising technologies (the most important being fuel cells) it would be idiotic to NOT use/develop further, what we have right now. Ethanol, given the current status of the technology, acccording to the Oak Ridge National Laboratory scientists can meet at least one third of the nations demand for transportation fuel. Arguing against developing this resource makes no sense.



...... but getting back to the point of this post!:

as pointed out in the original post (remember the original folks?) the development at MIT could advance that technology dramatically. A 50% increase in yield would turn >33%(ORNL) to >48%.

"The high-ethanol-tolerance yeast also proved to be more rapid fermenters: The new strain produced 50 percent more ethanol during a 21-hour period than normal yeast."




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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-23-06 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Your "effort" was stated in racist terms.
Edited on Sat Dec-23-06 04:22 PM by NNadir
There was no mention of Al "Kaeda" (sic), but there was the evocation of "taking our women," the sort of thing that racists everywhere evoke.

Of course you want to change the subject, but you will certainly not be the first racist who tries to wiggle away from what he or she has said. You will also not be the first racist to claim that his or her racist remarks are not "racial, it's merely factual." Even Goebbels said that kind of stuff, but of course he was not taking about Arabs, but Jews. It's always the same - just the names are changed to injure the innocent.

Personally, I was always against the war in Iraq - going back to the day it started. I oppose all wars, but one reason was that I thought this war particularly odious was that I felt it would be a particularly racist war, which of course, it has proved to be. The Americans who are killed count much, much, much, much more than the Arabs are killed. There is an exact count of the number of dead Americans in Iraq, but the number of Arabs is a sort of vague guesstimate. Note that very few of the Arabs killed in this war had anything to do with killing Americans, your racist implications aside.

I don't need to evoke any racist feelings whatsoever to be against the use of oil and all other fossil fuels. The body of my work here has consistently viewed all fossil fuels as unacceptable. Unlike you for instance, I am against the use of coal and it has nothing to do with the quality or origins of the people who live in West Virginia. I am against the use of oil, and I would be against it if the world supply were in Kansas. I am against natural gas and it's not because I hate Canadians.

It is really surprising to me that I can manage to think less of you and your ideas than I did, say, a month ago but in fact, I do. I find you appalling.

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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-23-06 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. My bad, I thought everyone would recognize Osama and knew he was a leader of al Kaeda.
Edited on Sat Dec-23-06 05:52 PM by JohnWxy
Goebbels or Hitler had nothing on you. They clearly inspire your attack rhetoric as you continue to keep accusing me of something you want others to believe. This will not make it a true - except of course for you in your own personal reality.

Again, as I said, there is no difference racially between me and any Arab so that makes the racist slur nonsensical.


The real point here is:

We are paying for our dependence on gas with lives. Arguing against any viable energy option which reduces our dependence on oil (right now) is absurd and may I say, immoral.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-23-06 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. The real point, to my mind, is that you are making a racist appeal.
Edited on Sat Dec-23-06 10:19 PM by NNadir
I must have touched a nerve, since you are now inclined to argue that I must be inspired by Hitler, on the grounds that I think that you are a racist. This logic is no less curious than any of the other logic you have applied here, and as always, it does nothing to dissuade me from any of my contentions, including my contention that you are apparently an anti-Arab racist.

I do not believe that anything you have ever proposed on this website in either your racist posts or your racially neutral posts is "viable." Thus a discussion about my views on ethanol are not really relevant. I do not believe you are familiar enough with either technological, scientific, economic or moral concepts to make a responsible or worthwhile judgment about any of them. With the exception of one comment on population, I cannot recall a single thing that you have said here that has any merit.

Your appeal on behalf of the corn lobby has done almost nothing over four decades to eliminate dependence on oil and your representation to the contrary is entirely gratuitous and without merit. I am, of course, not really interested in what is done about ethanol, since its contribution both to oil depletion and to climate change is in the best case, trivial. I have argued here that I believe that however little it actually does, it probably does not consume more oil than it produces. But since it has yet to produce a single exajoule of energy, the matter is of almost no importance. I'm actually agnostic on the subject of ethanol, except when it crosses the border into the type of magical thinking that suggests that it is enough. We have been talking about ethanol since Jimmy Carter was President. If it really worked oil imports would be going down, not up.

That to which I have consistently objected the most in your posts is your very poorly thought out anti-nuclear bias, which I regard as a form of ignorance. In addressing this ignorance - which is astounding in its magnitude - I have come to dislike you as a person as well as an advocate, but that is of no real consequence. In less dangerous times, one could probably let ignorance slide, but these times are not ordinary. The earth's atmosphere is collapsing.

Again, I don't care about your corn liquor. It is the nuclear issue that is my bailiwick, and the subject of my passion. Nuclear energy is important, since it is, by far, the largest greenhouse gas free form of primary energy readily available on this planet, producing almost 30 exajoule of primary energy. (The amount is set to double in the next 10 to 20 years - although it will hardly be enough.)

The myths of the anti-nuclear industry are so incredibly wrong-headed and at odds with the facts that in a rational world they would have never gained any traction whatsoever. However the world has been irrational and incredibly nonsense such as you spout continuously here has been entered into broad currency with a subset of the world's population. It has lead to environmental disasters like the now over turned "nuclear phase outs" in Sweden, the Netherlands, and Belgium. I note though that such a "phase out" has not (yet) been overturned in Germany - leading to the further expansion of coal use there - an environmental disaster of the first order. Happily all of the anti-nuclear arguments have now been rejected by the world at large, and the nuclear industry is experiencing serious growth, even though it is probably too late. Thus the damage done to the environment by anti-nuclear ignorance in the past has been enormous, and with this in mind, I am not inclined to let it pass.

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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. HItler enuciated the principle of the Big Lie, which you now undertake to use.
If you must lie make it a big one and keep repeating it. To distract attention from the subject at hand. That's what you are doing. This is widely used by Conservatives to much success in recent politics. I don't like those who use techniques of disinformation.

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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. I am sickened by your desire to see Americans die to protect Exxon-Mobil's profits.
Edited on Wed Dec-27-06 05:35 PM by JohnWxy
Ethanol is the best technology we have to reduce our imports of oil and thereby increase our energy security and our national security. Even just achieving a 10% reduction if oil imports will strengthen our position by making us less vulnerable to an oil supply disruption. Thus protected from up to a 10% supply interuption we will be less likely to commit troops so readily to secure oil supplies - reducing the risk to our men and women in uniform.

But you don't want that. You argue against ethanol and thus help to put our troops in greater jeopardy. As I say, I am sickened by your desire to see Americans die for Exxon-Mobils bottom line.

I prefer to reduce the risk to our troops by reducing our vulnerability to an oil supply disruption. The quickest way to do that (along with conservation - good luck getting people to agree to that) is with ethanol. While others debate conservation measures we can be building ethanol production and we will be that much better off for it.

Stop arguing for our troops to die for Exxon-Mobil, et al, I find it sickening, and immoral.

I realize you like to say things just to get a reaction out of people who ordinarily would not notice you were there. Such is your life. THat of an internet stalker. It allows you to enjoy forcing an interchange between yourself and those who would ordinarily ignore you (except perhaps to laugh at you). So be it.

Just stop your arguing to kill more Americans for oil. Ethanol can reduce our vulnerability to an oil supply reduction and increase our energy security and our national security - and thereby reduce the likelihood that more Americans will die for oil in the future.







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suziedemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-24-06 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. That's not racist - xenophobic maybe - but not racist. Get a life!
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hankthecrank Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-23-06 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
25. Ruminating animals like it as feed and so do non ruminating
Bacteria like food that been worked over by other bacteria.

Non ruminate benif because the food is broken down some already

I really the Christmas cheer on this board. Just makes you feel all warm inside.
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