GM: Hybrid cars make no sense (from 2004)

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"GM executive Lutz argues critically acclaimed hybrid compacts like Toyota Prius are bad business.

DETROIT (CNN/Money) - General Motors Corp. has no plans to try to answer the success of the Toyota Prius, the critically-acclaimed gas/electric hybrid car, said Robert Lutz, GM's vice chairman of product development.

It just doesn't make environmental or economic sense to try to put an expensive dual-powertrain system into less expensive cars which already get good mileage, Lutz said at the North American International Auto Show.

The Toyota Prius, now in its second generation, can get 55 miles out of a gallon of gasoline. It has won several awards including North American car of the year at the auto show, Motor Trend's 2004 car of the year as well as making Car & Driver's top ten list. Toyota sold 24,627 of the vehicles in 2003, a 24 percent increase from 2002 sales."

http://money.cnn.com/2004/01/06/pf/autos/detroit_gm_hybrids/

And global warming is a myth. Got it.

[mdmc]

1. political cartoon idea

ten hybrids are parked between a bUMMER and an escalade. The caption reads, "How did Toyota beat out GM for worlds biggest auto manufacturer.

[chelsea0011]

2. GM=Bad Business

[Dr.Phool]

3. I just watched,"Who killed the Electric Car" yesterday.

More of GMs great decision making.

[SlipperySlope]

4. GM was both right and wrong...

If you look at small hybrids from an engineering, economic, or environmental point of view, they really don't make much sense. There are less expensive, more effective ways of conserving fuel.

But if you look at them from a political point of view, they make a lot of sense. They are subsidized by the US government through tax incentives, and give people who drive them an opportunity to show they are "doing something" by their choice of vehicles.

I think GM approached this purely from a engineering point of view, and didn't consider the people factor.

In the long run, gas-electric hybrids might not have a long market life. They seem like an interim solution until we can effectively make all electric or alternative fueled vehicles.

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6. ?

Cars that get 50mpg, cost far less than other compacts when fuel costs are factored in, and cut environmental pollutants in half don't make much sense?

From an engineering point of view Toyota is doing just fine. If GM is incapable of engineering successful hybrids, that's another issue.

onedit: GM's Saturn Vue is coming out in 2007. An example of a car which makes no sense, but GM is producing anyway. :crazy:

[SlipperySlope]

8. !

Well, let's think about this, and take care to compare apples to apples.

"Cars that get 50mpg"


Compact hybrids get good mileage, but so do compact cars in general.

While I don't doubt that hybrids get *better* mileage, there has been plenty of reporting about how the EPA numbers for hybrids are particularly overstated. On other words, hybrids don't have as big of an advantage as people have been led to believe.

For 2008 the EPA will be adjusting their mileage numbers. Most cars are expected to drop 12%, while hybrids will drop 20% to 30%.

It's hard to directly compare the top two hybrids, the Insight and the Prius, directly to any other cars. Neither of these has a traditionally powered version, and Honda and Toyota have thrown almost every mileage increasing trick into these vehicles (wheel skirts, lightweight materials, CVT). In short, there is no "apples to apples" vehicle we can compare them to.

For the number three hybrid, the Honda Civic Hybrid, we do have a good comparison since Honda makes a traditional version as well. Here are their EPA City/Highway mileage numbers:

Civic Hybrid = 48/47
Civic Gasoline = 36/44

So there is a difference there, although we know it is exaggerated.

Question: Is the total cost (including cost of ownership) with this difference?


"cost far less than other compacts when fuel costs are factored in"

I don't think the data backs up this assertion.

Edmunds.com found that gas would have to cost $5.60 per gallon for a person who drove 15,000 miles a year for five years to break even.

Forbes.com calculated the break-even for a Hybrid Accord at 100,000 miles.

Msn.com calculated the break-even for a Hybrid Accord at 120,000 miles.


"cut environmental pollutants in half"

Not necessarily, especially if you consider the entire impact from mining the resources to disposing of the car at the end of life. This article claims that a Jeep Wrangler has lower environmental impact than the Prius:

http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=3528666&fSectionId=1645&fSetId=381

If we focus only on tailpipe emissions, yes, most Hybrids are low-emission SULEV vehicles that produce 90% lower than average emissions. But so are the BMW 325i, Chrysler Sebring, and Buick LaCrosse. SULEV isn't a unique characteristic of Hybrids.

"From an engineering point of view Toyota is doing just fine. If GM is incapable of engineering successful hybrids, that's another issue."

We are all entitled to our opinions. When I see a Prius I see a clever piece of engineering, that still burns gasoline, is overpriced by a few thousand dollars, and that is no better to the environment than a traditional compact.

"onedit: GM's Saturn Vue is coming out in 2007. An example of a car which makes no sense, but GM is producing anyway. :crazy:"

I agree with you on this one 100%. The Vue Hybrid makes no technical sense. If GM wants to copy something, I'd love to see them copy the Volkswagon TDI.

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11. Well you're right about one thing

The Prius is more expensive--about $7G--than a comparable Civic--and gets about 10 mpg more (based on real-world driving tests).

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef7f897

and it would take a long time to pay it off. Longer, most likely, than the life of the car.

Now about the environment -- I see you found a South African site which proposes the preposterous idea that a Jeep Wrangler is better for the environment than a Prius. You've also bridged a formidable leap of logic to suggest that somehow a BMW 325i (7.7 tons of CO₂ added to the atmosphere every year), Chrysler Sebring (7.4 tons) or a Buick LaCrosse (7.9 tons)--just because they're labeled by the DOE as "SULEVs"--belong in the same sentence as the Prius, which produces 3.2 tons. Matter of fact, over the life of the car (assuming 100,000mi) that BMW dumps about 28 tons more CO₂ into the air--or pound for pound, about 15 Jeep Wranglers of CO₂.

Into the air.

Hybrids are better for the environment than a traditional compact, and (outside of electrics and the elusive FCVs) far better than anything else.

[skids]

13. .

On other words, hybrids don't have as big of an advantage as people have been led to believe.

Led by who? By the EPA. Toyota has been very forthright -- they don't want to put those numbers on the sticker, they are forced to by law.

For 2008 the EPA will be adjusting their mileage numbers. Most cars are expected to drop 12%, while hybrids will drop 20% to 30%.

No actually they won't, because the 2008 Prius will feature improved technology, offsetting the sticker decline. Probably not as drastic as this article speculates:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/04/rumors_rampant_.html

...but Toyota has stated they are dedicated to halving the cost of the Synergy drive. Cost is also usually correlated with total energy used in manufacturing.

Edmunds.com found that gas would have to cost $5.60 per gallon for a person who drove 15,000 miles a year for five years to break even.

It's about a breakeven right now, all factors considered (Most comparisons you find in news media really don't compare equivalent trim/models, and most have had to issue retractions and correction to their original article.) The next generation will begin to bring a real cost savings. For now, those buying hybrids are helping push the technology forward, and getting about the same value for their buck.

This article claims that a Jeep Wrangler has lower environmental impact than the Prius

That research frontloaded the costs of the Synergy Drive development into the cost model, and is thus invalid. Research is a cumulative asset that will be applied forward to future models. So it's more bullcrap from wannabe skeptics.

When I see a Prius I see a clever piece of engineering, that still burns gasoline

Funny, when I see my new 07 in the driveway, I see a clever peice of technology that I just can't wait to drive off the warranty so I have an excuse to buy the post-factory PHEV kit and at that point stop burning 90% of the gasoline I currently do. Only financial discipline holds me back from going out and getting the kit now.


If you want to complain about hybrids, complain about the fact that you cannot buy a hybrid drivetrain without also buying almost all of the luxury extras, thus keeping them out of reach of the median comsumer. Except for the ones like whoever buys my old `02 on the used market, of course.

(I would have kept the 02, I loved it, but there's no PHEV kit available for it.)

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14. Which kit are you getting? nt

[skids]

16. Haven't decided...

...since I am going to take advantage of the warranty while it's valid I'm holding off shopping to see what the prices are by then. There are three that I know of -- the ecars one, one from a comapny in Canada, both of which I think use Valence Tech cells, and the new one with the A123 Cells.

[wtmusic]

18. need advice

I will be buying a 2007 Prius soon and plan to have it converted ASAP to a plugin (IMO the Edrive makes the most sense, at least at this point).

Did you use your warranty at all?

[LSK]

15. Ford Escape 4WD = 22mpg, Ford Escape Hybrid 4WD= 32mpg CITY

Toyota Hylander 4x4 = 21 mpg , Toyota Hylander Hybrid 4x4 = 31 mpg

These #s are from yahoo autos using 4cyl non-hybrid models. 6 cylinder models get less than 20 mpg.

Yes a Civic might get 31 mpg, but Americans like their SUVs and want room for families and life in general.

Hybrids are a solution. They make a difference. They allow people to drive a roomy SUV while having similar mileage to a smaller Civic.

Better battery technology and plug in modifications and improve the mileage further.

It is OUTRAGEOUS to suggest that Hybrids do not work. They are a STEP in the right direction.

[Kolesar]

10. Why does not a Vue hybrid make sense?

A wagon that gets 27/32 instead of the comparable 22/27 (FWD automatic) for $23,000? That's not much more cost than a Prius and a lot more useful if you want to transport 31 or 63 cubic feet of cargo. If motorists bought 27 mpg hybrid VUEs instead of 22mpg and worse vehicles it would make a bigger difference than buying ultra-thrifty compact cars to replace already-thrifty compact cars.

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12. It does -- I was pointing out the hypocrisy of GMs assertion

Anything that makes the air cleaner, and does it affordably, makes sense.

[Kolesar]

17. Oops. I missed the smilie icon at the end of your message :silly:

Yesterday, I should have been using ;sarcasm; more often. I was confusing people.

Now, for the :banghead:. To make room for the battery, Saturn removed the spare tire. You get a long air hose instead...maybe a can of fix-a-flat, too.

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19. Hadn't heard about that one

I doubt if many will get bought because of stupid engineering oversights like that, plus only a marginal increase in mileage.

With the EV1 they were dragged in kicking and screaming to the table by the California's Zero Emission Vehicle mandate, and they made a hell of a car. I go back and forth about this, but IMO one of the main factors the EV1 disappeared wasn't the petroleum industry or even nefarious intent by GM--it was an marketing oversight, namely the charger. GM incorrectly assumed EV1 lessees would demand being able to recharge the car in under an hour, so they developed a high-voltage inductive charging system which cost owners up to $5,000 (sometimes including electrical work to their home!) to install.

As interest in the PHEVs (soon-to-come plugin hybrids) is bearing out, most electric car owners would be more than happy to plug the car into an ordinary wall socket and leave it overnight. Easier, simpler, cheaper. Of course the Petroleum Institute was only too happy to tamp moist earth over the EV1's grave.

[Kolesar]

5. Hybrids make sense to solve air pollution problems in grid-locked cities

Like in Japan.

[Javaman]

7. GM = Gassoaked Morons...

I just want an electric car that will take me 100 miles round trip to and from work.

Is that so damn much to ask for?

Oh that's right, they made one that was very successful but launched a negative marketing campaign to kill it, then lobbied the california legislature to turn back the pollution laws.

Just what was I thinking???

When we can no longer see the stars at night nor the sun at day, our place on this earth will go away.

[redqueen]

9. Pretty much spells out why Japan smacked us down in that market.

Idiots. If it wears a suit and makes too much money - it's probably a f$#&in' short-sighted, greedy piggy idiot.