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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 08:56 PM
Original message
Number crunching: Phasing out coal with carbon free sources.
The main function of coal power in the world is to provide base load electricity. A small amount is connected with steel manufacture and similar processes, but most of it is used to produce electricity.

Currently the world releases 27.0 billion tons of carbon dioxide per year, of which coal is the source for 10.6 billion tons, or roughly 39.2% is attributable to coal burning.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tableh4co2.xls

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tableh1co2.xls

From EIA tables, we can calculate how much energy coal produces per unit mass on average.

The EIA states that the world used 6,098.7 million short tons of coal in 2004:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/table14.xls

Converting to metric units, this is the same as 5532.8 metric tons of coal.

The EIA also tells us that the energy value of this coal was 105.6 quads.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tablee4.xls

Converting to metric units this is 120.8 exajoules.

It is easy therefore to show that the average energy of content of coal used on earth was 21 GJ/MT.

Converting the energy unit above to average continuous power by dividing by the number of seconds in a year 31.6 million roughly, we see that the continuous thermal power of coal is about 3.83 trillion watts. This is a useful unit in this case because that is actually how coal is mostly used, for continuous energy production.

Without appeal to expensive storage systems which in any case do not exist on sufficient industrial scale, there are only three existent non-fossil fuel technologies that can do what coal does, provide continuous (base load) power 24/7, 365.25 days per year. They are: Geothermal, biomass burning and nuclear energy.

I think we all can agree that geothermal energy, where available is an excellent tool in the battle against global climate change. I think most of us support it, just as most of us support wind - an intermittent energy source that is not suitable for discussions about coal. Geothermal sources have not reached their full potential, but even in countries like Iceland, there is an upper limit to how much they can produce. This means there are only two technologies that could replace all the coal: Biomass burning and nuclear power.

There is one country on earth that has essentially eliminated coal use in particular and fossil fuel use in general for electricity use by use of nuclear power: France.

The latest French technology for producing nuclear energy is the EPR which is described here:

http://www.areva-np.com/us/liblocal/docs/Regional%20Solutions/Plants/ANP-U-207-V2-05-ENG.pdf#search=%22EPR%20thermal%20power%20pressurized%22

These reactors have a thermal output of 4300 MW. Thus it is straight forward from the power number above to see how many EPR's would be required if we wanted to eliminate coal and thus 10.6 billion tons of carbon dioxide: We would need about 1230 reactors. The current total, worldwide, of operating nuclear reactors is 440. We would therefore need a reactor fleet of about 1670 nuclear reactors, or slightly less than 4 times larger than what we have right now.

I will come back later to discuss biofuels, the other option.




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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Before all the no-nukes people jump down your throat ...
... that would be low-carbon-load power, right?

At some point, we should give consideration to how increasing low-carbon energy sources will cumulatively reduce the carbon footprints of all energy sources that don't depend on burning organic material.

Of course, we have to get busy replacing fossil fuels first.

--p!
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. How sure of an assumption is it that all of the energy produced by
coal must be continuous energy? While I agree that there is a certain amount of irreplaceable baseload need, I'd bet that at least some of coal's current contribution could be replaced by wind/solar/hydro...
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Hydro sources are more or less tapped out first of all.
Edited on Wed Aug-30-06 03:09 AM by NNadir
Since hydro is already cheaper than coal, coal is not built where hydro is available.

A coal plant takes quite some time to heat the water in the boiler, even in fluidized bed combustors. Thus like nuclear plants, one cannot economically shut them off whenever the wind isn't blowing.

The best evidence that coal runs continuously is the capacity factor, which I have calculated for coal plants: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x65830

Gas, petroleum, wind and solar plants all run at overall capacity of less than 50%. The highest capcity factors for industrial powerplants belong to nuclear 89.4% and coal 71.2%. Nuclear plants run at higher capacity than coal because of economic reasons. It is cheaper to run a nuclear plant that is fully amortized flat out than it is to use any other form of energy. It is safer and cleaner than coal. One of the big reasons is a physics effect relating to fuel burn up.

For the record, nuclear energy is safer and cleaner than solar power and biomass, contrary to widely held opinions. Solar power is a completely trivial form of energy in any case. It does not supply even a minor fraction of renewable energy and renewable energy provides a fraction of our energy supply. ("Other renewables in the graph below, refers to wood, black liquor, other wood waste, municipal solid waste, landfill gas, sludge waste, tires, agriculture byproducts, other biomass, geothermal, solar thermal, photovoltaic energy and wind.) The best form of greenhouse gas energy for renewables to replace, should they ever get their act together on scale, is natural gas. They have a long way to go before they can even do that.



http://journals.democraticunderground.com/NNadir/19

The relative safety of various forms of energy can be shown by clicking around on this website: www.externe.info.

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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Your continuous use assumption is probably a bit high.
The Base Load usage for California is about 10,000 megawatts, 20% of peak, less than half of typical/daily peak. for 2-3hrs a day. There is another 10,000 megawatts that are needed for about 21hrs a day. With the remaining 30,000+ megawatts providing the load following and additional shorter usage loading.

The point being that the true baseload energy rerquirement is probably less than 50%, the proportion of energy obtained from coal and certainly less than 70% the proportion provided by coal and nuclear combined.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Your source of data?
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Here is the real time power requirement of California, today, right now..
You seem to be off by a factor of at least 2, if today is a typical day in California.

http://currentenergy.lbl.gov/ca/

This morning at 4 am, California hit a low demand of around 24,000e MW. As I write right now, demand seems to be close to 30,000MWe. It seems they expect a peak this afternoon at around 40,000MWe.
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Aug is peak load month for CA ISO
But the data I gave was based on my memory of the last time I researched the minimum load some years ago. While it would be nice to analyse a full years worth of time/load data. Your point can probably be made without it.

That is assuming your point is that wind/solar energy will not displace the burning of coal.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. The base load on New Year's Day of this year was about 20,000MW
You can adjust the date on that device using the date scrolls on the top.

My point is exactly what you say it is.

It gets tiresome hearing all the time about how wind power is an alternative to coal or how solar power is an alternative to coal. Neither of these forms of energy are coal alternatives, although both are excellent alternatives for gas and - to the limited extent it is used in power generation - petroleum.

Even if California were provide 10,000 MWe, that would create restrictions on what forms of primary energy could be used to generate electricity.

In the last decade the easy answer - but not the envirnomentally ]sensible answer - has been natural gas.

Natural gas is still a fossil fuel.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. About 75% of California's power. Does not include Sacramento or LA.
The interesting thing about this graph is the 16,000 MW daily cycle, and what it might look like if you put 16,000 MW of solar capacity in there.



The Luz solar project in California covers several square kilometers and has a peak capacity of 350 MW. The builders went bankrupt mostly because their financing rested on elaborate tax and rate support structures, but ultimately natural gas fired plants were easier to install and maintain, and produced electricity at less cost to the utilities.

Schemes for similar sorts of systems are currently being revived in California, Nevada, and Arizona.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/news/news_detail.cfm/news_id=10199
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. This is a good point. Solar plants of the Luz type are excellent peak
generators.

The use of such plants would go a long way toward reducing the profile of natural gas in California.

The same would be true of a brazillion solar roofs, should any California legislation on that score actually result in a brazillion roofs covered with solar PV cells.

Nuclear plants are lousy as meeting peak demand, by the way. They are best run flat out at maximum capacity.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Thats a nifty little website.
:D
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. It is very cool indeed.
Especially if you're into something known generally as "reality."
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
5. Thinking about wood replacing coal: Crunching more numbers.
Wood and wood products right now produces about 1% of the electrical energy of the United States.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/NNadir/19

A more detailed description of how wood energy is derived in actual current practice is available from the data found on this page from the EIA:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/solar.renewables/page/wood/wood.html

From this we are able to glean that in 2004, the energy output associated with wood, landfill gas, and (because the EIA includes it under this heading) sludge and municiple was was about 4394.71 trillion BTU or 4.63 exajoules.

Note that this is energy that is produced now from this industry.

Of course this industry depends almost entirely on wood waste products. To replace the 120.8 exajoules provided by coal - see the OP - we would need to generate, through scale up, 26 times as much waste wood products, throwing in 26 times as many tires and truckloads of municiple waste on the side.

This of course means using 26 times as much lumber as we use, 26 times as much paper and so on if we insist on talking waste products only. I don't think that's going to happen.

What about virgin biomass, as in the ethanol industry or simply chopping down trees and burning them directly with no futher processing?

There are no readily available figures for this but there is this interesting note on a type of tree that is being grown in plantations to provide biomass for energy purposes and no other products. Here is the website for the the State of Oregon's renewable energy website:

http://www.oregon.gov/ENERGY/RENEW/Biomass/resource.shtml#Poplar

They write:

Hybrid Poplar Plantations

There are more than 34,000 acres of hybrid poplar (cottonwood) trees growing on plantations in Oregon. The trees were originally planted to be a source of wood fiber for the pulp and paper industry, but some of the plantations will be harvested for lumber.

Although commonly called "hybrid poplar," the plantation trees grown in Oregon are a cross between black cottonwood and Eastern cottonwood. The hybrid is a fast-growing tree that thrives in the Pacific Northwest. Properly managed hybrid cottonwood plantations are ready for harvest six to eight years after cuttings are planted. At harvest, 70 to 80 percent of the biomass in each tree is suitable for pulp.

The U.S. Department of Energy anticipates that dedicated feedstock supply systems, including cultivation of short-rotation woody crops such as hybrid poplar, will be a major fuel source for the biomass power industry in the future. Harvest of these trees for pulp chips produces a biomass residue of bark, leaves and stumps that are usable for fuel. Residue yield varies depending on the hybrid variety, management practices and the age of the stand at the time of harvest as well as weather and other environmental factors. Residue yield ranges from 7 to 15 bone dry tons of fuel per acre. Thus, the gross energy value of the residue per 1,000 acres of harvested hybrid poplar ranges from 0.12 to 0.26 trillion Btu.



Let's take the intermediate value and say that the poplar plantations produce 0.19 trillion btus per 1000 acres. This, converted to metric units is the equivalent of 2.00 X 1014 J of thermal energy per 1000 acres or 2.00 X 1011 per acre.

To provide the 120.8 X 1018 J now provided by coal acknowledging that we need on average of 6 years to produce this yield of energy, we would require 3.5 billion acres of poplar plantations.

The total land surface area of Oregon is 96003 square miles.

http://www.50states.com/oregon.htm

There are 640 acres in a square mile. The land area of Oregon is therefore 61 million acres.

Thus to provide all the energy provided by coal from poplar plantations we would need 58 Oregons covered entirely with poplar plantations.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Crunching a ridiculous strawman
Edited on Wed Aug-30-06 06:10 PM by jpak
No one has ever suggested that we use hybrid poplars to replace global coal consumption.

You could, however, eliminate all US coal consumption without cutting down a single tree.

The Electric Power Institute estimates that the use of efficient home appliances and industrial electric motors could reduce US electrical demand by 25-44%.

The US uses ~0.9 billion short tons of coal per year to generate 50% of the nation's electricity.

Which means that improvements in electrical efficiency **alone** could be used to reduce US coal consumption by 50-88%.

Here is mystical solar home in Maine (a state that we all know is single-handedly killing the planet with its ridiculous renewable energy schemes) that generates all of its heat, hot water and electricity with dithering solar energy...

http://www.solarhouse.com/

21 states have Renewable Portfolio Standards with goals to produce 10-30% of their electricity from renewable sources by 2015-2025. These are very modest goals and eminently "doable".

Using solar energy (or wind or tidal or geothermal or wave power) to produce 25% of US electricity combined with conservation/efficiency could easily eliminate the need to burn coal to produce electricity in the US.......

.....without cutting down one widdle iddy biddy twee.....

But wait, there's more!

A recent DOE study concluded that US could produce 1 billion short tons of dry biomass feedstock per year by 2030 without impacting US food and fiber production.

http://www.nirs.org/alternatives/factoid1.htm

A billion tons of dry biomass feedstock could replace all US coal production by 2030.

so there.

:P















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Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Aww, come on jpak...where's your adventuresome spirit
Stomping on strawmen is so much fun and easy too. You don't even need to think, just punch numbers into a calculator and ignore all of the significant, complex, social, economic, and geopolitical questions of our day. It's fun. You should try it.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. This week's issue of Science has a policy forum article that claims...
Edited on Thu Aug-31-06 05:14 PM by jpak
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/313/5791/1243

Enhanced: A Road Map to U.S. Decarbonization
Reuel Shinnar1* and Francesco Citro1

Alternative energy sources could replace 70% of fossil fuels in America within 30 years at a cost of $200 billion per year.

<need a subscription to see the rest>

Dreamers and fools...

on edit: found some more tidbits...

In this paper we present a plan for the gradual replacement of 98% of our total fossil fuel needs with available and affordable technology (which would also reduce 97% of present total CO2 emissions). We show that the direct use of electricity produced from alternative sources can replace 72% of the fossil fuel we consume. Another 26% can be replaced by hydrocarbons produced from syngas, a mixture of carbon oxides produced by gasifying biomass and hydrogen generated by electrolysis powered by alternative energy sources. 50% of this goal could be achieved over thirty years, and 80-90% over about 50 years.
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Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Here's some excerpts from the article
Paragraph 1:
Today, 85% of the United States' energy mix comes from carbon-rich fossil fuels: oil, natural gas, and coal (1). With demand increasing worldwide, existing oil reserves could peak within 20 years (2), followed by natural gas and coal. Growing fuel use is increasing CO2 and CH4 emissions and the risk of global warming. The United States has responded by sponsoring research into alternative energy (3). However, because research success is not predictable, an effective plan must be based on proven technologies. We propose to switch our economy slowly (over 30 to 50 or more years) to nonfossil energy sources by using proven technologies and available, expandable distribution systems.

-snip-

Conclusions:

Except for H2, all the technologies we consider could become competitive with crude oil at $70 per barrel. Our main objective, however, should be to implement the best technology for eliminating dependency on fossil fuels rather than to compete with coal or cheap oil. Investment in demonstration plants and in large-scale implementations will be required.

Approximate cost estimates (4, 7) to replace 70% of our fossil fuel use (including most coal) are about $170 to $200 billion per year over 30 years. At current levels of CO2 emission, a tax of $45 to $50 per ton of CO2 would pay for the whole investment and provide incentives for implementing renewable technologies (5).

We must start now, as our country does not have the resources to complete this switch within a few years. The United States must create long-range incentives (such as a CO2 tax or tax credits) large enough to induce companies and utilities to implement proven technologies and to provide the required infrastructure. A successful U.S. program can set an example for the rest of the world, as many of the key technologies are well suited to developing countries. Once the technologies are established on a large scale and are mass-produced, these costs should go down by a factor of 2, making them competitive and reducing the need for subsidies. The required increase in the electric distribution system poses problems, such as obtaining rights of way for new distribution lines, that only the federal government can handle. There are political hurdles, but we believe they can be overcome.

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Thanks (I let my subscription lapse)
Just posted a whole thread on this too.
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ItsTheMediaStupid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. What do you think about conservation?
We're energy pigs in the US. I bet we can life comfortably on less than half the energy we currently use.

If peak oil happens soon, we will be forced to live on a lot less energy.

What does that do to your calculations?

Everything I've read about biomass is that it is one piece of the puzzle to use in replacing fossil fuels.

As for nuclear, I have concerns about the waste, but I'm much more concerned about global warming at this point.

Is there enough fuel for nuclear to be a coal replacement?
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. No environmentalist opposes conservation.
Edited on Wed Aug-30-06 04:39 PM by NNadir
I believe that it is the individual responsibility of each person to conserve as much as he or she can.

I have a caveat though: The advisability of conservation only applies to those who have a decent standard of living. It is rather crazy to inform an African who lives on less than one light bulb's worth of energy that he or she must conserve even if everyone in the United States is driving a Prius or Honda Insight.

Just as people overestimate what renewables can do, the overestimate what conservation can do.

Renewables and conservation are excellent pieces of the puzzle, but we will not likely survive without nuclear energy.

I note that this thread is partially about waste, specifically coal waste. It is arbitrary to decide that so called "nuclear waste" is a problem while coal waste is not. Coal waste kills, so called "nuclear waste," has not killed anyone at all thus far. I regard spent fuel as an important resource for the future.

I have argued before in many different posts that nuclear resources can be for practical purposes infinite. However, such a state of affairs can only be obtained through the use of advanced fuel cycles. It will also require an increase in the price of nuclear fuel by a factor of 5 or 10. However, nuclear energy is not particularly sensitive to the cost of fuel. Uranium fuel is the equivalent of gasoline at a fraction of a cent a gallon. Almost all of the cost derives from the cost of the device that converts that fuel, specifically the reactor itself.

The use of advanced fuel cycles will result in decreased radioactivity for the planet as a whole in about 1000 years.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. No, there isn't enough in the US to support our current reactors
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/ptb0903.html

Globally, there is a serious shortfall in uranium mine production relative to demand.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9069-1735134,00.html

<snip>

However, a recent report by the Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada said that there was likely to be a 45,000-tonne shortage of uranium in the next decade, largely because of growing Chinese demand for the metal. Prices for uranium have almost tripled, to about $26/lb between March 2003 and May 2005, after being stable for years.

According to the Organisation for Economic Co- operation and Development’s Nuclear Agency’s “red book” — its statistical study of world uranium resources and demand — the world consumed 67,000 tonnes of uranium in 2002. Only 36,000 tonnes of this was produced from primary sources, with the balance coming from secondary sources, in particular ex- military sources as nuclear weapons are decommissioned.

<snip>
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Are new uranium discoveries increasing, steady, or decreasing?
That's the first question I would ask. The same situation in oil discoveries -- they are not just decreasing, they have just about stopped entirely -- is driving the "oil peak".

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about nuclear material production for the USA only, but for the world. EIA table 9.3 doesn't tell us about much except trade in the USA's nuclear materials, and doesn't really relate to the uranium shortage that the Times reports (but I assume they are reporting accurately). And of course, if the nuclear industry decides that it's cheaper to buy uranium from other countries than to mine it, it doesn't mean we're running out.

The second one: is nuclear reactor technology becoming more efficient -- or less, or holding steady?

I don't know the answer to the first (I think discoveries are increasing slightly), but the second is clearly getting better.

The Big Question is how nuclear safety technology is progressing. That, too, seems to be improving. As far as I've been able to find out, most of the trouble with nuclear energy appears to be from greedheaded business practices such as cheaping out on engineering and construction. (But I may be wrong, from either side of the issue.)

Similar problems of operational competency affect all energy industries. We ought to address this problem ASAP and hold industry to accountably higher standards, no matter what favorite form of energy we support.

--p!

ObDisclaimer: Layperson. Corrections to inaccurate statements of fact welcomed. Cited sources appreciated, but not demanded.
ObEsperanto: Multaj Dankoj!

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Uranium discoveries are not really being pursued.
Edited on Thu Aug-31-06 09:00 AM by NNadir
In the period between the 1950's and 1970's considerable discoveries were made and vast amounts of uranium were mined, much of it for weapons work. In those times it was expected that nuclear power would grow rapidly.

Reactor technology was complex and untested, the infrastructure new, and in a effort that can only be considered noble, at least in an ethical respect, if not an economic sense, nuclear energy was the only energy industry that attempted to consider the whole impact of it's fuel cycle - including the question of dealing with its waste. Of course every energy industry has wastes and/or impacts, but many of them - notably fossil fuels - simply ignored these issues - public be damned.

Since the issue of waste was discussed by the nuclear industry itself - this allowed certain slick hysterics - Ralph Nader being the most famous, but certainly not the only example - to make rather extreme statements about the impact of nuclear technology that were actually not justified by experiment.

In the meantime, there was a great deal of confusion about the types of reactors that should be built. No one had ever used uranium before except as pottery glaze and staining glass. It was thought to be a rare element, and it was also thought that it would be necessary to obtain the full energy potential of the fuel, including the U-238, through the use of breeder reactors. Many reactors of this type were explored, with mixed success. However uranium proved to be a much more common element that previous supposed, about as common as tin. Thus breeding became economically unjustifiable.

In the meantime a major market for uranium, that of the weapons industry, disappeared. Happily, treaties between the United States and Russia lead to the creation of a surplus of enriched uranium because the only effective way to permanently destroy weapons grade material is to fission it in a nuclear reactor. For more than a decade the world has been living off this surplus, much of it imported from Russia.

Thus uranium prices have been depressed for quite some time and no one has been bothering with uranium prospecting. Some old previously discovered mines have been reopening however or are being developed for the first time. The price of uranium is beginning to rise to the point where these operations become economic.

Because uranium (and thorium) resources can be used in so many ways, there is considerable confusion on the part of the general public about uranium reserves. You hear - especially from poorly educated people - that "uranium resources will only last for 40 years," and nonsense of this type. This is true only if we do things exactly the way we have always done them in the United States, and use the once through low enriched uranium fuel cycle. However, the once through cycle has already been rejected by several countries with major commitments to nuclear power, notably France and Japan. While uranium is very cheap - and it still is - as the price of uranium rises many opportunities for the improvement in fuel utilization and recovery become available. When the price reaches $200-400/kg, recovery from seawater becomes economic. When the price reaches $1000/kg, recovery of plutonium becomes economic. (Improvements in actinide chemistry - a major area of research will actually reduce this price level considerably.)

Moreover thorium reserves vastly exceed land based uranium resources. Since thorium was removed from gas mantles, mostly it is dumped as a waste product from the lanthanide mining industry.

In the case of ocean, it is saturated with respect to uranium. It has dissolved all that it can. Thus if one removes uranium from the ocean using the Japanese amidoxime resin technology that has run all the way through pilot, new uranium is charged to the ocean from the weathering of rocks.

Also reactor burn-ups are rising. In the old days it was considered good to get 20,000-30,000 MW-day/MT from uranium charged into a reactor. Now numbers approaching 50,000 MW-day/MT are more typical. Using thorium cycles, it is expected that current burn-ups can be tripled. With continuous plutonium recycling, plutonium burnups as high as 575,000 MW-day/MT are possible.

http://www.iaea.org/inis/aws/htgr/fulltext/htr2002_205.pdf#search=%22corail%20plutonium%22

I have discussed some implications briefly elsewhere: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=115&topic_id=65597#65599

When we move to full fuel recycling, we will have vast resources that have already been mined. For instance, the energy content of the much maligned "DU," depleted uranium, is roughly 5400 exajoules in the DOE stockpiles alone (around 700,000 MT). Transmuted into plutonium, this is enough to supply every single joule of energy on earth at current consumption levels, around 450 exajoules per year, for well over a century without operating a single mine. Taking advantage of this possibility will involve more expense than simply mining virgin uranium, but should virgin uranium become less readily available, it is clearly an option.

Finally many types of mining that were previously not used have been technically proved. In situ leach mining of uranium is now industrial. Many different technologies have been employed, the best of which is through the injection of oxygen and sodium carbonate into uranium bearing rocks which removes uranium as a carbonate complex, leaving the radioactive decay daughters like radium in the original formation. This technology is used in the US. These "mines" do not disturb the ground much, they are rather like natural gas wells - they have some impact, but most of it is minor.

Maybe someday we can use that technology here in New Jersey. We have lots of uranium in our bedrock around here, and it makes for problems with radon in our basements.

My gut feeling is that uranium resources can be considered almost infinite. This should not be read as a call to forget about conservation and population control however. No one should construe that I have said that nuclear energy is risk free. Rather it is risk minimized with respect to the other options.

I do believe that we should employ - for ethical reasons - one of the more expensive supply options - continuous fuel recycling. There is no reason why we should consume the cheap stuff so that everything future generations use will be expensive. This will minimize the number of mines necessary, as well as maximize the prospect for peace, by changing the isotopic nature of all the world's plutonium so that it is highly unsuitable for weapons use. Nuclear disarmament depends on a vibrant power industry to succeed: Again, the only way to totally destroy weapons material is to fission it. I also believe that we should move aggressively into the thorium cycle, which is superior to the other fuel cycles in many ways. It also seems that this gives us the best shot at leaving a legacy for future generations. It will also reduce the radiotoxicity of the planet to levels that have never been seen before throughout geological time. (Note that this may not actually be desirable - life has always existed bathed in radiation.)

Thanks for your question. Please let me know if I can answer any further questions this discussion may have raised.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. The State of California has this to say about its geothermal resources.
(You can avoid having to look at the picture of the steriod crazed Governor Hydrogen Hummer boy by clickion on this link: The main California Department of Energy page has, I must warn you, Hydrogen Hummer Brazillion Solar Roof Boy's picture.)

http://energy.ca.gov/geothermal/overview.html

When added together, California's geothermal power plants produce about 40 percent of the world's geothermally generated electricity. The power plants have a dependable installed capacity of about 1,900 megawatts -- producing 4.9 percent of California's total electricity in 1999 (12,786 million kilowatt/hours).

The most developed of the high-temperature resource areas of the state is the Geysers (a photo of a Geysers' power plant's Unit # 18 is shown to the right). Located north of San Francisco, the Geysers was first tapped as a geothermal resource to generate electricity in 1960. It is one of only two locations in the world where a high-temperature, dry steam is found that can be directly used to turn turbines and generate electricity (the other being Larderello, Italy).

Other major geothermal locations in the state include the Imperial Valley area east of San Diego and the Coso Hot Springs area near Bakersfield. It is estimated that the state has a potential of more than 4,000 megawatts of additional power from geothermal energy, using current technologies.



The bold is in the original.

If the potential California reports for itself is realized, this means that California could produce about 6000 MWe of geothermal power. Thus California could realize about 30% of its base load from geothermal energy.

Achieving such a result would be, of course, a good thing.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
18. Errata.
The sentence:


Converting to metric units, this is the same as 5532.8 metric tons of coal.


Converting to metric units, this is the same as 5532.8 million metric tons of coal.


The word "million" was omitted. I trust this confused no one given the context.
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