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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 11:26 AM
Original message
Wind driven hydrogen project in Greece produces 5 cu m/hr.


Europe's first wind power-driven hydrogen production plant launched in Keratea

November 19, 2005 -- Development Minister Dimitris Sioufas and the Development Ministry's General Secretary, Nikos Stefanou, today inaugurated a pioneering power plant for the production of hydrogen with the use of wind energy at the Keratea Energy Park in southern Attica.

Sioufas said "our country's research community, along with the private sector, are pioneers in the research and development of technologies in the much promising sector of hydrogen." He expressed certainty that "the hydrogen economy will create new economic activity and new jobs."

The project, which was financed within the context of the EU's Fifth Research Programme Framework, has of a total budget of EUR 5.4 million. The pilot hydrogen production facility will be powered by a 500 KW wind generator and have a production capacity of five cubic metres of hydrogen per hour.

Participating are 14 European research agencies, from Greece, Cyprus, Germany, Spain and Portugal. Europe's first wind power-driven hydrogen production plant is owned by the Centre for Renewable Energies (CRES) and was developed by CRES, its Chairman John Agapitidis, CRES's management, a group of scientists and ATHEX-listed C. Rokas SA.

Founded in September 1987 by Presidential Decree 375/87, CRES is the national Greek centre for Renewable Energy Sources (RES), Rational Use of Energy (RUE) and Energy Saving (ES)


http://www.invgr.com/keratea_hydrogen_plant.htm

They seem not to have heard about the really big hydrogen plants elsewhere.

Treating hydrogen as an ideal gas, this plant is producing a kilo of hydrogen every 5 hours, and only for 5.4 million Euros.

And you were worried about global climate change?
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. Hydrogen is a long-term fantasy
Don't get me wrong: I'm all for alternate sources of energy. It's just that the whole "hydrogen economy" seems to work only with petroleum inputs. Right now we can build wind turbines and all the necessary infrastructure because the process is powered by petroleum.

Let's imagine that we build up all this hydrogen infrastructure complete with fueling stations, pipelines and storage facilities. Now imagine that the last drop of oil runs out. Can this infrastructure be maintained without petroleum? Is the machinery used in production hydrogen-fueled? Are the factories that make the wind turbines fueled by hydrogen?

It appears that while we could build up a hydrogen economy, it would work only until the petroleum inputs failed.
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. We can convert some petroleum requirements to ethanol. Not all,
Edited on Thu Aug-17-06 11:46 AM by bluerum
but we can reduce dependence.

The future will require a diversity of energy sources. No one technology will be universally dominant. Instead, the various technologies will find niches where they will be viable.

edit: sp.
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yep..I think we have to wean off of huge reliance on petro thus giving
new technology time to evolve. All of these little measures can add up! I'm for it!
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Genetically engineered algae that produces Hydrogen
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/v33_2_00/hydrogen.h...

Of course, if we start spewing Hydrogen into the atmospher in large amounts, might it not combine with The Ozone Layer to produce H2O?
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HongKonger Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Read what we are doing in the marine industry and rethink your position.
Edited on Thu Aug-17-06 12:36 PM by HongKonger
Read what we are doing in the marine industry and rethink your position.

Thanks.

I am not sure who's payroll you are on - but everytime I see hydrogen come up as an alternative fuel on DU - I find a slew of detractors who don't present a reasonable argument.

It will be a combination of alternative energy sources that will eventually replace fossil fuels as a primary source of energy.

Take the fact that one can use wind and solar power to produce hydrogen from sea water to power an ocean going vessel on a macro level. Then rethink your message.

http://www.avanteyachts.com/joomla/index.php?option=com...

http://www.haveblue.com /

http://www.max-power.com/fuelcell/index.html

http://www.mtu-friedrichshafen.com/en/ps/ps_031022_1.ht...

http://www.hydrogenics.com/products_modules_hypm10.asp

http://www.millenniumcell.com/fw/main/Home-1.htmlhttp:/...

http://www.plugpower.com/products/prime.cfm

http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/FuelCellToday/IndustryInfo...
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Read carefully about EROEI
Energy Return On Energy Invested

Would you like an investment that costs you two dollars for every one you earn? I certainly hope not.

Hydrogen is an energy carrier, not an energy source. There is no one-to-one correlation between it and petroleum.

Hydrogen requires more energy to manufacture than it carries. (Re: The aforementioned investment.)

Okay, let's say I'm on board with your method of hydrogen generation. What energy source was used to manufacture the solar cells? And the wind turbines? Petroleum you say? Fine. Let's crank out those solar cells and turbines while we still have the oil to run the machines. Skip to the future we hope to help. Now the oil is gone or reserved for the military/government. We need replacement parts for those aging turbines. Is the factory hydrogen powered? Are the plastics and other materials derived from petroleum being made of something else? And crank up that solar cell factory (solar cells have a lifetime of about 20 years). Hope that facility is also running from some sort of alternate fuel. And so on....

Here's whose payroll I'm on: My family's. I want the best for my family and I'm installing solar cells, fans, geothermal HVAC, energy-efficient appliances and every other thing I can do. I telecommute, work from home and set my thermostat at 80 in the summer. And I love science fiction.

Oh, and by the way, the http://www.efcf.com /">Lucerne Fuel Cell Conference has decided to "retire" the hydrogen fuel cell "because hydrogen fuel will never contribute to a sustainable world" ( http://www.energybulletin.net/18120.html )
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. I agree - and the hydrogen haters are wrong
Will renewable hydrogen replace all our fossil fuel - and especially oil - consumption?

nope - and nuclear power can't either.

Can hydrogen serve as highly scalable energy storage medium for renewable power systems??

yup

Is electrolysis of water to produce hydrogen thermodynamically efficient???

yup - 85% EROI

Are hydrogen fuel cells efficient in producing electricity from hydrogen???

yup

Currently 60%+ for electricity (85% theoretical max.) and more than 80% efficient if used to produce both heat and power (CHP).

Total system efficiencies are ~65% for renewable electricity hydrolysis with fuel cell reformation and CHP.

Don't see much of a problem with them numbers.

(note: nucular power plants have thermal efficiencies of only ~30% and use only ~50% of the original 235U content of fresh fuel - but that's OK)

And you don't have to use fuel cells to generate heat and power from hydrogen. Current generation gas turbines use do it quite well.

That's what Denmark is considering...


www.risoe.dk/rispubl/nei/33030-0034.pdf


Are we all going to be riding around in hydrogen cars In The Year 2525...

(nope - that's a conceited crock-o-shite)

But will hydrogen from renewable energy sources make a significant contribution to our economy by then (and be used to produce nitrogen fertilizers when the natural gas runs out)????

Their ain't no Law of Physics that sez it can't...
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. you can make the same argument about ANYTHING
What are you proposing? That we make things with rocks and horses again?
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I'm not proposing anything
Hydrogen is not "the" solution, although it may have some limited usefulness.

If I offered you a deal that returned one dollar for every two that you invested, would you be interested?

Hydrogen is like that in that it requires more energy to manufacture than it carries. It is an energy sink. Building a big infrastructure using petroleum just to manufacture hydrogen sounds great until you want to run that infrastructure with hydrogen.

By implementing stringent energy conservation measures and de-centralizing our power production we could extend the petroleum era for a significant length of time. But when the last bit of oil runs out, we will not have a replacement for it. We may have many replacements that can fill one of petroleum's many roles, but never one single fuel. That is simply reality at this juncture. And while I'm a fan of our technological prowess I'm not going to join a cargo cult.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. but this story talks about it being manufactured with wind power
Edited on Thu Aug-17-06 01:32 PM by LSK
I dont see how petroleum plays a part. Unless you are talking about petroleum being used to manufacture the wind generators. But you can say that about almost any alternative energy method, that petroleum is bound to be used somewhere in the manufacturing process.

:shrug:
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. also
There is no single solution to our oil energy problems. Rather, all the solutions should be explored and encouraged. I do not think we will find a one size fits all solution, rather many different solutions will have to be used together to solve the peak oil crisis.

Attacking an alternative energy solution is not a method of solving the peak oil crisis. Hydrogen energy can find a place in the future and projects like this one should be encouraged.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. UTC to build Fuel Cells for Spanish Navy submarines.
http://www.fuelcellmarkets.com/article_default_view.fcm...


UTC Power to Design Fuel Cell for Spanish Submarine

SOUTH WINDSOR, Conn., July 19, 2006 UTC Power, a United Technologies (NYSE: UTX) company, today announced that its UTC Fuel Cells unit will design and develop a 300 kW proton exchange membrane (PEM) fuel cell power module for the Spanish shipbuilder NAVANTIA, S.A. for use in the Spanish Navys S-80 submarine.

The 300 kW PEM fuel cell will be designed to operate on reformed ethanol and pure oxygen. The Spanish Navy will install the new fuel cell power modules on its S-80 model, 2,500-ton submarines as part of the air-independent propulsion system. The S-80 submarines are designed to protect the coastline.


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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. We could manufacture petroleum itself, if we choose to.
I'm not sure that makes any sense, since we basically turn petroleum into *other* things, which we may as well manufacture directly in the future.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
11. The EU had more than 40,000 MW of installed wind capacity in 2005
Which could produce 400,000 m3 of hydrogen an hour...

or 9,600,000 m3 of hydrogen per day...

or 3,504,000,000 m3 of hydrogen per year...

but whose counting...

(and nice try though)

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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. Ethanol Car Beats Fuel Cells to Win European Eco-marathon
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/may2006/2006-05-22-03.a...



Ethanol Car Beats Fuel Cells to Win European Eco-marathon

NOGARO, France, May 22, 2006 (ENS) - An ethanol powered car engineered by French high school students has achieved the best fuel efficiency at the European Shell Eco-marathon 2006, winning the race at the Nogaro auto racing circuit in southwest France. It also took the Climate Friendly prize for producing the least greenhouse gas emissions in the process.


Engineering students from France's Lycee La Joliverie celebrated victory Sunday after their ethanol powered prototype vehicle completed seven laps of the Nogaro circuit with an energy consumption equivalent to traveling 2,885 kilometers (1,792 miles) on a single liter of gasoline.

Lycee La Joliverie is a high school in St. Sebastian-sur-Loire, France, that specializes in internal combustion engines.

The performance of the ethanol team has shown that hydrogen powered vehicles are not the only solution to the Shell Eco-marathon challenge for energy efficiency," said Vincent Tertois, technical director for the Shell Eco-marathon.

~~
~~

"The fact that so many fuel types are represented in the top teams is a great sign of the wide range of alternative energies which could play a part in the future of transportation," Tertois said.

Run since 1985, the European Shell Eco-marathon offers participants from across Europe the opportunity to test their sustainable transportation ideas.

~~
~~

The 2006 Shell Eco-Marathon UK takes place on July 12 and 13, 2006. Competitors range from students aged 11 to senior university academics and semi-professional independent teams.



Copyright Environment News Service (ENS) 2006. All Rights Reserved.
The ENS website is maintained by HKCR LLC
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
16. Hydrogen is mostly a PR stunt.
The future is algal biofuels.
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