Info & Opinions Needed Please... Radiant Electric Heat vs Econo-Heat

[WePurrsevere]

My husband and I are looking at switching from using our old oil/wood combo furnace to mainly electric heat (although we'll need to keep the wood stove for backup in case of a Winter power loss).

Recently I read about Econo-Heat here on DU and they look wonderful but while researching various heaters my husband ran across Radiant Electric Heat which also looks very good. Is anyone here familiar with the later (and former) product and how they would compare to the Econo-Heat? My techie husband says that the radiant heater would be more efficient but I'm leaning more toward the Econo-heat admittedly due mostly due to aesthetics. Since we're on a fixed income (SSD) both short term and long term costs are a HUGE deciding factor as well of course.

TIA B-)

[orwell]

1. It's simple...

...electric heating is the most expensive way to heat your space, unless the oil heater you have is so inefficient that it's almost not functioning. The cheapest heat is the heat you don't pay for (insulate your house.) The next in line is high efficiency kerosene such as a Rinnai heater.

The next would be natural gas.

The next would be an electric heat pump.

The next would be propane.

The last would be electric.

If you already have an oil furnace, the best solution might be the Rinnai.

http://www.rinnai.us/

Remember, BTUH output and operating cost over the life of the product is the most important consideration.

[hunter]

3. Dang, Rinnai's got an irritating website.

Makes me want to go down to Home Depot and buy whatever they've got on the shelf...

But the "right" answer to this problem is complex. In a very well insulated house the least expensive solution might be a couple of ceramic resistance heaters, especially if you only heat the room you are in. Plug 'em in and go. Just be mindful they are very expensive to run.

If you do go electric, I doubt very much it's worth paying extra for any fancy sort of heater. My parents had a house with radiant electric heat but in my opinion it wasn't any better than simple electric heat. A $24 ceramic heater would have worked as well. My parents stopped using electric heat when they got a woood pelllet stove, which was very nice because they could finally afford to keep their house warm.

Short story, first you insulate, and take great care to look for leaky windows and doors.

After that your progression sounds pretty good, orwell, but so much depends upon the home. Is there natural gas available? Is there a place to put a propane tank?

Small natural gas wall heaters are relatively inexpensive, but it's not clear how much natural gas will cost in the coming decade as the United States is forced to import more of it. In mild climates a heat pump might be a better bet.

My wife and I are currently remodeling our house. The furnace the house came with is an absurdly oversized 80% efficient forced air system with big ducts running through the attic to the entire house. Apparantly the contractor was used to fitting houses for air conditioning, which we don't need. Our furnace is currently disconnected, and pretty soon now I have to decide if I'm going to replace it. I'd like something that will heat the bedrooms seperately from the other living areas. Since we live in a mild coastal climate two heat pumps might work well, but they also might be a bit of overkill since there are only a couple of days a year when we might use air conditioning. We'll see what inspiration strikes me. The current furnace doesn't run long enough when it's cycling to heat the house evenly, no matter how much I play with the vent adjustments.

Problems like this make me certain we could easily cut the energy used for heating in the United States by half. It's sort of the same situation with cars. Our homes and cars are energy hogs.

[orwell]

4. We have...

...two houses on our ranch. One is a mid 80's manufactured home which we heat with a wood stove and cool with a roof mounted swamp cooler. They both work well, especially the swamp cooler.

We just put up a brand new manufactured house to live in. It is r40 in the roof and floor and r21 in the walls. We use an electric heat pump with backup electric forced air furnace. Our total electric bill for both houses averages $80 per month. Bear in mind that we drip irrigate plantings on 4 acres which must be fed by a well which means power to pump water.

The key is in super insulating the house. Our average temps in summer are in the high 90's low 100's and in winter the low 40's with an occasional snow day, maybe 4 or 5 per year. We live in Northern California.

BTW we can't get natural gas where we live. The only direct fossil fuel options are propane and kerosene delivered. We will eventually go 100% alternative (wind, thermal solar) when the efficiencies get better.

Thanks for your info.

[WePurrsevere]

8. Thank you... we already are planning on upgrading the insulation...

that's our number one priority over all others this Summer. We have an old house (1850) with a newer (1974-ish) addition. The newer addition is probably okay but the old part we really need to check and see what's in the walls. Thankfully this won't be too difficult since the main room is paneled and we don't think there is any sheet rock behind it.. at least there wasn't in the small section we took off to peek under. The main area that we know was probably never insulated and desparately needs to be is at the foundation/sill plate. My husband and I sat at our computer desks and had a freezing cold draft right up our legs.

For all the horrible drafts and such we figure we should buy stock in the chalking and Great Stuff companies. I'll also be making thermal "curtains" using quilted material for pulling closed at night. The sun comes it the front bay window very strong year round so we use what passive solar we can.

The main reason we're looking into efficient electric heat is because we're hoping to install some type of alt energy in a few years once we get ahead a bit (the second reason is it's clean versus the hot air). The oil/wood furnace we have is about 40% effiecient if we're lucky although my husband says with a new gun and some work he could get it up to somewhere between 60-80% effiencient. Although cost for electric is very high it's effiecient and clean.

We are out in the country so natural gas isn't available. I think my husband said he really likes the idea of geo-thermal (we have 7+ acres) with a heat pump. Propane is an option but I'm afraid of the stuff. I (followed your link to the Rinnai and can't find a kerosene heater... they look like the Moniter heaters that are very common up here though.

My husband is super busy right now but hopefully he'll be able to sign up and explain better what his mind set is. I may not be as clear as I should be... he's very into all this ("retired" engineer ::sigh:: )

Thank you again.

[jpak]

2. Electric space heat is the most expensive way to go

In New England, electric space heat costs ~$40 per million BTU (MBTU)

Fuel oil is ~$23 per MBTU

Wood pellets are ~ $18 per MBTU

Switching to electric space heat (Econoheat or Radiant) would double your heating bill.

A new pellet stove or furnace would be the we to go (and get one with battery back-up for power outages).

Fill them up once in the morning and they are good for the day, many pellet stove also have thermostats and automatically turn on an off. Also, they only need a vent pipe - not a new chimney...

[ArmchairMeme]

7. Pellet Stove

I am in N.E. and have used a pellet stove for three years. It is located in my living area and heats the 1st and 2nd floor very well. Plus I like to sit in front of the flame. It is much cleaner to use than a traditional wood stove which is what I used for 15 years prior to this. The pellets come in 40 lb bags. which I store in my cellar. I don't have to go out in the snow to get logs.

[WePurrsevere]

9. I hadn't thought of pellet stoves.. I'll check into those and the costs.

Thank you for the info.

[IDemo]

5. I very strongly advise AGAINST Econo-Heat panels

Here's the Epinions piece I wrote but haven't yet submitted:

After reading several reviews of the E-Heat panels, I decided to order two. We live in an area of the country with exceptionally low electric power rates, largely due to hydro-power, and anything we could do to lower the monthly gas bill seemed worth a try.

The panels are rated at 425 watts. Two feet in width and length, they are wall-mounted between 6 and 18 inches high per the manufacturer's instructions. There is a narrow gap between wall and panel. The concept is: a convection current, or flow, will move hot air upward between the panel and the wall and into the room, no fan required.

Unfortunately, after one week with our newly-installed panel, we could only come to the conclusion that this is a largely useless appliance. Except for the heating benefit to be had by standing immediately next to the panel after a morning shower, the rest of the room remained cool, or at least at the mercy of the (natural gas) central heating system. Both the relatively low 425 Watt rating and the lack of a fan were probably to blame for the panel's poor performance, although the manufacturer touts these as energy saving features.

After regretfully taking the panel down and repackaging it for return to the company, we discovered that a much greater shortcoming to this company than its product quality is it's lack of customer service/support. After waiting patiently for a response, I sent an email reminder, and was given an "rma" number (returned-merchandise-authorization). I printed the rma# in the largest font available on my Windows-XP machine, taped it to the box, and sent it UPS. And waited.

After waiting three weeks, I emailed and was advised that it would normally take three weeks to receive a refund. After the fourth week, I called with an inquiry regarding the lack of a refund on my creditcard account, and was told: "I can't find your paperwork anywhere". I was asked for a UPS tracking number and provided it. I was told that I would be called "right back". No callback came. That was Friday afternoon.

The following Monday I called back, and was told "we will credit your account today". Daily account verification with my credit card company showed no recent account activity. On Friday, I called once again (my gawd, how much Josh Grobin hold-music must one endure), and was told,,,"we'll call you right back". I called back two hours later, was told 'we need your credit card info' (don't you already HAVE MY CREDIT CARD INFO by virtue of my having paid for your product with said card??). I was told, once again, "we will credit your account today". Once again, no refund appeared on my credit card account two business days later.

After another two days, finally, a credit showed up, for over thirty dollars less than the purchase price. Apparently they have "dinged" me with a re-stocking charge, despite my having returned the merchandise in new condition and in the original packaging. And paying a total of $72 shipping costs both ways.

While I believe that electric heating solutions will become increasingly cost-effective in an age of rising natural gas prices, there are better options available than the EHeat panels. Econo-Heat, regardless of one's judgement of their products, is a company in dire need of re-organization or dissolving. When a business occasionally slips with a product or service, that's understandable. But when an organization is unwilling or unable to provide even a relatively low standard of customer service, they have marked themselves as unworthy of consideration by potential buyers.

[WePurrsevere]

10. Thank you. Customer Service is very important. My husband wrote them

asking a rather simple question and over a week later still no response... I told him to call and see how that went.. he just hasn't had the time yet.

[NMDemDist2]

6. long discussion here on econo heat

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=353&topic_id=279&mesg_id=279

[WePurrsevere]

11. Yes, thank you, that's the thread where we first heard about econo-heat.

I'd love to see more cost comparisons between regular electric heat, like baseboard, and these panels as well as oil to econo-heat price wise. Since we live in northern NY I wonder if it would be as cost effective here as for somewhere where it's not as cold in the Winter. Even if we don't heat the whole house with electric having it in our bedroom/office if we're not using hot air might not be a bad idea since the door to this room is kept closed due to some of furkids not understanding papers on desks need to stay ON desks, etc. :D

[xmas74]

12. Here's an article about substituting biodiesel in

an oil furnance.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Alternative_Energy/2003_December_January/Heat_Your_Home_with_Biodiesel

Here's an article a few years old about the pros and cons of pellet heating

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Alternative_Energy/1999_October_November/The_Future_of_Fuel

(just a couple of different ideas from what you were originally looking for. Something might be interesting)

[WePurrsevere]

13. Thank you. My husband's looking into bio-diesel as well as a few other

things. He's retired due to a disabilty but still an engineer to his very marrow I think. He's tossed around a few alt energy ideas as well as having a few ideas to potentially improve others. :)

The pros and cons of pellet heating I know he'll be interested in.

Hmm... I think we really need to resubscribe to Mother Earth News again I think. They always had the best articles on all kinds of interesting things. Thanks for the links and thanks for reminding me this great mag. :)

[xmas74]

14. You're welcome.

I'm a subscriber and I love Mother Earth. They always have great articles.

[Kolesar]

15. Electric socks?

Please, please promise me you will wear a dust mask when busting up those old walls on the old house. My roommate developed an awful problem with a fungus he inhaled.

I like your "thermal curtains" idea. Good luck!

[WePurrsevere]

16. Thanks for the heads up.... we already know there's mold in the basement

so are going to take precautions throughout. Neither of have the healthiest lungs.

Glad you like the "thermal curtains" idea. Back in the late 70's one could buy thermal drapes.. they were curtains with a coating on them that helped block the cold. Somewhere in the boxes still packed away I may even still have the red set I had but they're probably not so good after all this time.