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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:50 PM
Original message
Greenpeace co-founder praises global warming
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060113/BUSINESS11/601130327/1071

Global warming and nuclear energy are good and the way to save forests is to use more wood.

That was the message delivered to a biotechnology industry gathering yesterday in Waikiki. However, it wasn't the message that was unconventional, but the messenger — Greenpeace co-founder Patrick Moore. Moore said he broke with Greenpeace in the 1980s over the rise of what he called "environmental extremism," or stands by environmental groups against issues such as genetic crop research, genetically modified foods and nuclear energy that aren't supported by science or logic.

<snip>

In direct opposition to common environmentalist positions, Moore contended that global warming and the melting of glaciers is positive because it creates more arable land and the use of forest products drives up demand for wood and spurs the planting of more trees. He added that any realistic plan to reduce reliance on fossil fuels and the emission of so-called greenhouse gases should include increased use of nuclear energy.

<more>

:crazy:
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. What a sell out.
Edited on Fri Jan-13-06 05:52 PM by Eric J in MN
nt
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Okay count me now
officially confused.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I'm with you.
I'm glad he broke away from Greenpeace about nuclear power but he's lost inside his own head about global warming.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. Regarding GM risks and "arable land," he's smoking dope.
What "arable land?" Does he think we're just gonna follow the receding ice-cap and move the planet's agriculture to the north fucking pole?

I can't help but agree with him regarding nukes.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. And what about desertification?
Climate change isn't all sunny beaches on Vancouver Island you know. Where conditions are hot they can get hotter and drier. My region of the US experienced a multiyear drought during the late 90s and early 00s that nearly redefined our ecological category from subtropical to arid wasteland, and we aren't over yet.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Just so.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. what you said. nt
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. He quit when he found out...
There's no money to be made in being an environmentalist. People sell out all the time, but lying about it just makes it so much worse.
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democrat_patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. Global Warming is good

for raising money for Greenpeace.
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fed-up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. Patrick Moore's a Corporate Whore-he was paid $10K to speak pro GM at CSUC
during our campaign to ban genetically engineered crops here in Butte County in Oct, 2004

http://www.fanweb.org/patrick-moore/liar.html
top ten lies told by Patrick Moore

the next link isn't working for me, but it did in 2004
http://www.lobbywatch.org/profile1.asp?PrId=89&page=M
Profiles

just found a cached copy

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:AFcSHeZ1sAoJ:www.lobbywatch.org/profile1.asp%3FPrId%3D89%26page%3DM+%27GREENPEACE+FOUNDER+SUPPORTS+BIOTECHNOLOGY%27+ran+the+headline+on+the+AgBioworld&hl=en

'GREENPEACE FOUNDER SUPPORTS BIOTECHNOLOGY' ran the headline on the AgBioworld press release about Patrick Moore's support for AgBioWorld's 'Declaration in Support of Agricultural Biotechnology'.

...
The biotech industry flew Patrick Moore to appear as one of its expert witnesses in front of the Royal Commission on Genetic Modification in New Zealand. His only 'expertise', however, was his connection with Greenpeace.

Press articles have also portrayed Moore and his support for GM in terms of the recent disillusion with Greenpeace of its founder. But far from leaving Greenpeace recently, Moore quit almost two decades ago and he was never more than a founding member....

...After leaving Greenpeace, Moore set up a fish farm, which failed, and in 1991 set up his own environmental consultancy, Greenspirit. This attracted controversy of its own. Around the same time, he became a full-time paid director and consultant for the British Columbia Forest Alliance. The Alliance, although presented as a 'citizens group', was the brainchild of PR firm Burson-Marsteller.The Alliance has a budget of around $2m derived mostly from the forest industry and its 170 or so corporate members, and it campaigns for clear-cutting.

Moore's activities on behalf of the Alliance have been extremely controversial. He claimed, for instance, that the World Wildlife Fund in some cases supported clear-cutting, provoking a furious response from Jean-Paul Jeanrenaud, head of the forest programme of World Wide Fund for Nature International, who accused Moore of 'grossly misrepresenting' WWF's position, something WWF 'deplored'.
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. He became a whore
And apparently is still a whore.

Whore.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Yup - He and Stewart Brand (Whole Earth Catalog).
Edited on Fri Jan-13-06 06:48 PM by jpak
From the King of Hoes to the King of 'Ho's...

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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. LOL! n/t
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Buh-da-BOOM!
Thanks, ladies and gentlemen - Jpak will be here all week.

:toast:
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
15. Greenpeace is and probably always has been an organization of people who
are not especially bright or, from what I can tell, especially aware.

Basically the entire organization is a collection of spoiled middle class (and upper class) brats with small minds. So certainly it is of no surprise to hear this sort of thing.

Nothing that comes out of the mouth of anyone in that organization, past or present, makes any sense.

I don't really follow this guy, although of course I am aware of his support for nuclear energy. Anyone who thinks that the effects of global climate change is "just more arable land." Of course the solution to the problem Just like a clock is right twice a day, Moore has managed to be right about nuclear power but not much else, apparently...

I note that the idea that global climate change cannot be stopped by building lots of websites about the perpetually arriving solar nirvana. Neither can engaging in silly "look at me" acrobatic acts of the type now so depressingly familiar: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Greenpeace_protestors_put_solar_panels_on_British_Deputy_Prime_Minister's_house. Neither is applying for a Darwin award a real environmental solution: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/11/300681.html) Greenpeace is an organization for spoiled children too much time on their hands, and little technical capability or awareness. The founding of Greenpeace was an activity, in the end, conducted by and for complete jerks.

The issue is energy, and for the immediate future, the atmosphere, which is at clear risk and is increasingly beyond prediction. There is no doubt to anyone who is looking at the news that global climate change in general, and habitat destruction (which is also a function of global climate change) will make it more difficult, and not less difficult to support the planet's 6 billion people.

The real task is to find an ethical solution to reduce that population, via attrition, to a manageable level. This of course, affects not just the atmosphere, but every other issue that environmentalists hold dear. We are far beyond the earth's carrying capacity, and we intuitively know it, irrespective of blab about how we might live in and adjust to a post meltdown world or about amounts of infinite energy that can run our stereos and tvs for a billion years. Of course, such a solution will not yield to simplistic approaches, and the likelihood of total success is, by this time, a near impossibility. It is now almost inevitable that population reduction will, probably for the greatest part, take place through the agency of tragedy. The die, more or less, is cast.

All that is possible now is to minimize the scale of the tragedy.

One may well argue - and be correct - that the over-population of the planet was a function of technology, particularly civil engineering, and easy access to seemingly inexhaustible energy. The myths of Faust, of Daedalus and Icarus, of Midas and Prometheus: All came out of a fundamental truth that we now are all living on a global scale.

Still we all know the luddite position - being against everything except that which has not happened (and probably never will happen) is not really an option either. Everyone will argue that the technology on which they themselves depend is either acceptable or essential: Most will expect sacrifices to come from someone else. A return to pre-agricultural conditions - an era of mysticism and brutality - is therefore simply not an option. Therefore we cannot destroy technology or reject technology simply because some rich white boys with poor educations hate it. Instead, we must evaluate technology, and choose wisely and carefully among the options available.

The methods by which we make such choices should be through that form of combinatorial optimization known as risk minimalization. I would expect that the axes of the probability space in question would consist of variables like sustainability, species survival, maintenance of maximal genetic diversity in surviving species, planetary scale stability, habitat maintenance. We will be less well equipped to undertake the actions consistent with whatever plans evolve if we ignore similar combinatorial optimization of human issues, issues that are familiar to all liberals, issues like justice, economic well being, strength of communities, peace, health and safety.

Random walks through probability spaces, the sort of game through which combinatorial optimization is sometimes - and in this case must be - obtained, seldom result in the location of a global maximum, the global maximum being the ideal solution where every variable combines to give the ideal solution and everyone and everything achieves the maximal success. Ideal solutions are the province of Greenpeace fantasy and other religious fantasy. We, however, are condemned to live in reality. The best one might hope for is a local maximum - that solution which is better than all others immediately available. Any localized maximal solution necessarily involves trade offs - we must sacrifice something of the ideal to prevent being stuck in a minimum where everybody and everything loses.

We are stuck in a minimum now.

The Greenpeace shits - and isn't funny how most of them are boys? - of course, will be totally useless in addressing this task, much as they have always been useless. They are, at best, barely literate. They are unethical. They are immoral. Therefore the actions and mouthings of Patrick Moore should not surprise us. His remarks are on a level with his peers. When they founded Greenpeace, they were self-serving grandiose twits mainly focused on garnering attention for themselves - and they all, apparently, still are.

I will not die satisfied with the safety of the environment - I am have far too short a time left and the problem is far too big and far too intractable. Sometimes I very much doubt that anyone, my children included, will live long enough to see the environment safe. It may never be safe again. The decline of the environment is great enough that all humanity is at risk, that even the death of everyone may result from the mixture of myopia and credulity that characterized these times. Moreover, as I am a human being, particularly as I have seen and accepted a share of wealth much greater than the world average, I bear personal culpability for what the world has become.

I will flatter myself to say, however, that I feel I have done something. I have searched for the truth, and reported it as best as I can see it.

In some sense though, if I have not been to the mountain top, if I cannot even hope to get there, I have seen other travelers embarking on the only trail that might lead there. Most people now recognize that the reality is not a circus and tiresome antics are not on the same level as doing work, work consisting of collecting and successfully interpreting data, proposing changes based on data, and of effecting changes based on data - including changes in attitude and approach. The pathetic Greenpeace ideology has been swept aside, including the dunderhead anti-nuclear position. Reactors are being now built on a grand scale, and I have worked hard to see that this would happen. This, of course, is a good thing, and to the extent that I have seen this, I feel I have done some part to avoid whatever tragedy can still be avoided..



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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Is it a full moon to night????
LOL!
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-14-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. No, just the light of day.
Edited on Sat Jan-14-06 02:33 PM by NNadir
I am familiar with a set of people who believe that the light of day is available at night however.

Most of them giggle insipidly, rather like crazy persons.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-14-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Eco-nut and Eco-luddite groups like Greenpeace...
...give the rightwingers an excuse to ignore the real enviromentalists. :banghead:
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-14-06 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Eco-nut and Eco-Luddite are terms you hear on RW talk radio
Rush, Hannity et al., use them - and similar terms - all the time....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jargon_of_The_Rush_Limbaugh_Show

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentalist_wacko,_Econazi_and_Ecoterrorist.

(Google up "eco nut" and "eco Luddite" and see what you get...)

....as do RW anti-environmentalist writers like the late Dixie Lee Ray (author of Trashing the Earth and Environmental Overkill), Elizabeth Whalen (author of Toxic Terror) Michael Crichton (author of State of Fear)...

...and Greenwash anti-environmental groups and RW anti-environmentalist bloggers...

http://rightwingnews.com/quotes/wacko.php

http://www.aaminc.org/newsletter/v8i5/v8i5-11.htm

In contrast, these people see themselves as the "real environmentalists"...

Confused????

I'm not...


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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-15-06 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Your comparing me to Rush?
:crazy:

What I mean by Eco-nuts and Eco-luddites are the mystical hippie types (especially the ones who bastardized the Gaia Hypothesis) and the ones that protest when NASA puts plutonium in space probes.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-15-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. The portrayal of "Eco-nuts" as worshipers of Gaia is a RW canard
...as is the portrayal of environmentalists as "mystical hippie types" or "treehuggers".

Rush et al., use these slurs and red herrings all the time.

Google up "environmental wackos Gaia" and see what you get.

Greenpeace and other "environmental wacko" groups do not "worship Gaia"...

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/about

http://www.sierraclub.org/

http://www.audubon.org/

http://www.environmentaldefense.org/aboutus.cfm?linkID=10

http://www.ucsusa.org/

http://www.nrdc.org/

http://nature.org/

http://www.environmentaldefense.org/home.cfm

http://www.foe.org/about/whoweare.html

http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0769127.html

The argument that environmentalism = religion and the portrayal of environmentalists as "neo-pagans" is a construct and the rhetoric of the anti-environmental right.

Furthermore, if people wish to voice their concerns about any environmental/health/safety issue - including the potential dangers of nuclear power supplies on satellites - that is their constitutional right. It does not make them "wackos" or "nuts".

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-14-06 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Actually, I think Greenpeace is rather meaningless at this point.
Right wingers don't need an excuse to ignore real environmentalists. They ignore real environmentalists with or without Greenpeace.

I suppose that from a public relations standpoint, the right wing may wish to associate the environmental movement with Greenpeace, but anyone who buys that particular piece of work probably isn't too bright in the first place. People will ignore the environment at their own peril, as is becoming increasingly apparent. It is no longer a simple case of aesthetics.

Greenpeace is simply irrelevant. Like I said, they're just an adolescent stunt squad. When you represent everything as intrinsically evil, you recall John Lennon's famous remark about Chairman Mao.

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-15-06 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Anti-solar-luddites - what a concept!!!!!
I bet they're....

"a collection of spoiled middle class (and upper class) brats with small minds."

"spoiled children too much time on their hands, and little technical capability or awareness."

"complete jerks"

"shits"

"always been useless. They are, at best, barely literate. They are unethical. They are immoral. "

"self-serving grandiose twits"

who "reject technology simply because some rich white boys with poor educations hate it."

:rofl:
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DJ MEW Donating Member (432 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-14-06 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
19. Why would anyone believe this crap
"the use of forest products drives up demand for wood and spurs the planting of more trees"

Because a seedling is so much better at repairing the environment then an old, strong tree.:sarcasm:
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-15-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Yes, and the root systems of seedlings hold MUCH more soil in place . . .
Than those of mature trees. :eyes:
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Grover_Cleveland Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-15-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Actually, that one part is correct.
Planting trees for profit works on the same economic principles as planting corn for profit. The more customers who buy the product, the more of the crop the farmers plant.

I would suspect that the paper and lumber industries are heavily concenred with future profit and future reslase value of their land, so they would have huge incentive to plant trees. I doubt they care about the environment per se. But they do care about profit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treeplanting

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