New Athena National Passenger Rail System

[aztc]

A project to upgrade the nation's passenger rail transportation system.

Riding home from Washington DC last year on the Empire Builder, I had a conversation with a long time employee regarding his perception of the original intent of the national highway system.

He told me that the original plan included right of way for passenger rail along the same corridors used for the highways. My first reaction was that this seemed unlikely, but that has changed now and I believe it to be a fantastic idea.

This project would finally separate passenger rail from freight by laying all new tracks along right of ways that already exist, the national highway system. The new railway will be built to accommodate high speed travel with reduced consumption of energy and increased employment and business opportunities.



http://fuelandfiber.com/Athena

[Kolesar]

1. High speed rail has major problems with mountains

A route from the midwest to the east coast would probably look a lot like the Erie Canal/NY State Thruway down the Mohawk River Valley. I have read that these TUV/Shinkansen high speed rail systems "just don't work" when they have to climb significant grades. That would kill alignments like I-80 or the PA Turnpike across Pennsylvania.

[Warpy]

2. Right, some stretches would be pretty unworkable

But even out here in mountainous NM, the system would work extremely well.

One of the things Richardson is doing right is pushing for commuter rail along the north/south axis, the direction most people in this state actually travel. The old rail companies concentrated on getting easterners to California and vice versa, so to do the 60 mile trip from Albuquerque to Santa Fe required going out of state and looping back, a complete insanity.

Perhaps a system of high speed rail and buses would work for people who needed to cross mountain ranges. It would still be more comfortable than driving a car and perhaps a bit quicker.

It would certainly be more energy efficient.

[aztc]

4. Good point about grades...

In fact, this is a major point about rail, high efficiency requires very gradual grades (slopes). In California a prime example of a problem grade is called "The Grapevine", a stretch of highway that snakes up and over the mountains just before dropping into the Los Angeles basin. Passenger trains don't go over this pass at this time. Riders traveling from the north get off the train in Bakersfield and board buses for a 2 hour trip over the grapevine into downtown LA.

Now, it seems rather odd to me that a country that can send men to the moon, put a submarine under the sea for months at a time, and wage war from 30,000 feet could certainly find a way to get a passenger train over that mountain, if that country had the political will to do so.

Yes, it will require billions of dollars, and employ thousands, if not millions of people, to resolve historic problems using modern technology.

[Kolesar]

6. Is that a route coming from the north, or is that a route from the east...

...going past Joshua Tree NP-29 Palms, etc.? That route from the east is where one passes from the high desert to the Los Angeles Basin. I have taken that route a few times by car, although I never lived in California.

[aztc]

7. That is from the north

I believe you refer to the old Route 66, which passes right by the famous 'Tehachipi loop' an example of engineering prowess for trains addressing just this problem of grades.

My example is coming from the north though, on the western side of the Sierra Nevada, and my point is that we have loads of smart people that would love to get to work on something BIG, that will do LOT to reduce oil consumption and provide JOBS while engaging TECHNOLOGY for a 'man on the moon' level effort....

[Kolesar]

8. Yes, we are going to have to do something to replace airplanes

Transportation is essential for stimulating commerce. Even republicans will agree that transportation system spending will return a positive flow from public spending. The price of kerosene will be ridiculous in a few decades and the air fleet will pretty much be history. Automobile transportation will be folded-back significantly, too.

[Massacure]

9. It wouldn't take millions of people.

Just dig a tunnel. It would be expensive, but it would work.

[aztc]

12. Millions of jobs to run it

Airline employees need not fear, there will be lots of jobs running the new system. Everything from construction to secretarial to marketing will be needed. Lot's of jobs. :)

[phantom power]

15. I envision something like the old CCC.

The government employed a huge number of people. They got jobs, and the country got tons of new infrastructure. National parks, the TVA, rural electrification, etc. That stuff formed the basis for America's economy for 70 years. Still does, I guess.

We could do the same thing for building a sustainable energy/transportation infrastructure for the next century. But never under the current administration.

[Kolesar]

30. The CCC was social engineering to get unemployed kids off the streets

...and far away into the countryside. Otherwise, you know what happens. Massive unemployment, long hot summer, young men hanging around with nothing to do, crowds assemble, someone prys a few cobbles out of the street, rocks fly, windows break, police are called, the crowd prevails, rioting begins, civil order breaks down, governments are overturned, a new order is established...

We were close to chaos then. We were close in 1968, too. Cities all over America burned and there were hundreds of bombings in those years. There were two summers of rioting in Cincinnati in the last few years, too.

[aztc]

31. Roosevelt's Tree Army much more that that!

From its 1933 launch until it faded into history and World War II nine years later, the CCC became what is still widely regarded as one of the most successful government programs in U.S. history. Known as Roosevelt's Tree Army, it left its imprint on every state. Its corps of young workers revitalized the nation's ailing forests, arrested soil erosion, built dams and bridges, surveyed lakes, mapped trails, fought fires and worked on more than 800 state parks.

The men were paid $30 a month, $25 of which was automatically mailed home to their families. The $5 they had left to spend seemed like a fortune, the men say.

``It was a real hard time,'' said Lawrence McGlynn, 82, who was living in a Pennsylvania coal town when he signed up. ``I needed a job to help keep the family alive.'' The money he sent home helped feed and care for his parents, four siblings and an uncle.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/10/09/MN95572.DTL

[Kolesar]

34. Yes, you are correct, but don't you love my drama?

I hiked on these wonderful trails in Glacier National Park last July that were built by CCC men. I hope you get a chance to go there. Piegan Pass to Morning Eagle Falls is just dreamy.

[happyslug]

10. This problem was addressed in the late 1800s

For Example the Erie Railroad Built one of the longest Bridges in the world in the 1880s (And rebuilt it in Steel 20 years alter) to maintain a straight rail line (You do not have to go up want you do not go down). This along with the extensive use of tunnels permitted very fast trains for the time period.

Kinzua Viaduct
http://www.railfanusa.com/info/bridges.html
http://www.route-6.com/pa/mckean/bridge/history.html

With new technology and some reconstruction increase speeds could be obtained. For example in the 1830s when the Pennsylvania Canal/Railroad was built one proposal was for a five mile long tunnel through Allegheny Mountain, impossible in the 1830s but fully possible today. Such a tunnel would permit much higher speeds than are possible along the main line of the old Pennsylvania railroad today. Such Tunnels are to long even today for Automobile use (Fumes) but with Electric Trains perfectly possible (The East Coast Electric Railway trains end their service at Harrisburg Pa, but this can be extended Westward given the extensive use of electric Railroad Power on the East Coast. Once over the Mountain than can re-hook up with the interstates.

Another route is the Old Erie Route along the top of the "Endless Mountains" of PA from New York City till Cleveland (Kinzua Bridge had been part of that express line).

I am less familiar with the Western States, but the same rule can apply, along the Interstate until the Interstates get to curvy and than by Tunnel till the West Coast. 10-20 mile long tunnels are perfectly possible today.

1935 Report on the Pennsylvania Railroad:
http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r009.html

Pennsylvania Turnpike Web Site:
http://www.pahighways.com/toll/PATurnpike.html#Chapter9

[aztc]

13. Tunnels, bridges, and more!

I am grateful for this post as it illustrates my point precisely!

[wakeme2008]

3. we will build this trillion dollar plus project

right after Bush trillion dollard man to Mar project.... ay right .

[aztc]

5. I hope

I hope we build it before going to Mars, don't you?

[Bru]

11. Won't some of this be redundant?

For example, the Empire Builder has a stretch very similar to the rail line in the map going along I-94, but goes farther north to Grand Forks and through northern Montana.

That said, we absolutely need a project like this as the age of the gas-powered auto and plane becomes more and more unsustainable.

[aztc]

14. Amtrak shares road with freight

Freight trains move slower and share right of way with passenger trains on the existing Amtrak system.

The new system would build all new track that would do two things: Separate passenger from heavy freight (light freight is another matter) and accommodate high speed equipment (which would include big tunnel and bridge projects) on the new line.

Expensive? Yes. Solve a HUGE problem? Yup.

[Piedras]

16. Use existing rail right of way with multiple tracks?

Question: why can't more (parallel) lines be added alongside existing freight lines for Amtrak (or other) passenger rail use? It would seem to me existing railroad rights of way could, in many cases, be used efficiently for both freight and passenger use with multiple tracks.

[MrMonk]

17. Many, many rail stations and depots would have to demolished

and rebuilt to accommodate the additional tracks.
Better to build new rail lines where the ROW are available.

[aztc]

18. Solar Train

I was thinking about how a steam locomotive could be converted to use solar thermal energy to replace or supplement other fuels to provide the heat and found the following two articles by Harry Valentine that seem to indicate all of the major technical issues have been solved for decades. Imagine if we spent a fraction of what we are spending on war to develop a transit system based on these ideas!

Tim

Researching a GPCS-Accumulator Steam Locomotive

The hybrid-accumulator steam locomotive idea described in this article is based on input provided by Michael Bahls (Germany) and Robert Ellsworth (USA).

A GPCS-accumulator locomotive would combine the advantages of a fireless steam locomotive with features of a conventional steam locomotive. It would borrow technology from both, combining the high-pressure (1000-psia) accumulator of a fireless locomotive with a GPCS (gas producer combustion system) firebox. Water in the locomotive’s accumulator (filled to 75% to 80% capacity) would be heated by injecting pressurised superheated steam into the water through a perforated pipe located near the bottom of the accumulator, a practice pioneered on classical fireless steam locomotives. Water would be heated to the operating temperature and pressure levels (1000-psia at 544-deg F). GPCS-accumulator locomotives would have their water supply replenished and be thermally recharged at industrial sites where high-pressure steam is available and where other types of fireless steam locomotives are recharged.

To maximise power output and operating duration, the locomotive would need to be built to the operating railway’s maximum right-of-way clearance dimensions. Several world railway systems allow railcars are built to a length of 85-ft (between couplers) and a width of 10′6″, on 60-ft truck/bogie centres. On such a railway right-of-way, the locomotive accumulator may be built to an inside diameter of 7-ft and interior length of 65-ft (10′6″ exterior diameter and 70-ft exterior length), yielding a volume of 2500-cu.ft and holding 90,000-lb of saturated water at 1,000-psia at 80% capacity. The front end of the locomotive could be extend by using a tapered section (containing the driving cab) with the coupler mounted on an extended bogie/truck. The non-tapered end would house the GPCS firebox and be semi-permanently coupled to a fuel tender unit. The locomotive would measure 95-ft to 100-ft from front-end coupler to tender. A driving cab could also be located either on the tender, allowing bi-directional operation.

Prior to the GPCS-accumulator locomotive entering or re-entering service, the accumulator would be filled to 75% volume with hot, pressurised saturated water. It would be further heated with superheated steam to a volume of 80%, a temperature of 544-deg F and 1,000-psia pressure. This would provide one-third of the locomotive’s required total thermal energy, which could be supplied from such sources as concentrated solar energy or heat-pumped geothermal energy. While in operation, the locomotive would be able to combust various forms of low cost, clean burning, low heat content (5,000 to 9,000-Btu/lb) biomass, including bio-fuel pellets, poultry litter (eg: Thetford Power Station, UK) or even bagasse carried in a semi-permanently coupled tender unit. Automatic fuel feed (stoking) using an auger screw mechanism would transfer fuel into the GPCS firebox, located on the locomotive section. Combustion ash could be transferred by a smaller auger into a holding pan located under the tender. During service lay-overs, the ash pan would be emptied (biomass ash is a fertilizer).

When the locomotive is in service, steam leaving the accumulator through the steam dome would be superheated to 1200-deg F in the GPCS firebox, then flow into a heat exchange pipe located inside the accumulator at its lower level. Saturated water at 1,000-psia and 544-deg F has an enthalpy of 542.6-Btu/lb in the liquid state. For this liquid to flash into steam, it would need to draw 650.4-Btu/lb from the remaining saturated liquid. The steam in the steam line would replenish this heat by making 4 to 5 successive passes through the firebox (for re-superheating) and lower level of the accumulator. This heat exchange steam line would allow 650-Btu/lb to be added to the saturated water, maintaining optimal accumulator temperature and pressure levels. The 6th re-superheat would occur prior to the steam being expanded in the steam engine, with a possible 7th re-superheat being used for compound expansion . A variety of positive-displacement single and compound expansion steam engine designs may be located close to the GPCS firebox, directly driving the axles.

More here:
http://fuelandfiber.com/Athena/bb/viewtopic.php?t=44

[aztc]

28. Sacramento Solar Train

Expanding on the Solar train idea, http://timcastleman.com/sst/index.html

[Oerdin]

29. Actually.

Amtrak doesn't own any rail lines any more the Republicans sold off/privitized the only rails (all in the northeast) which Amtrak actually owned. Amtrak is allowed to use the rails of the freight train companies but it had to agree to let freight trains have priority over passenger trains. That's the main reason why Amtrak has so many delays; any freight train which wants to go any where automotically gets priority over passenger trains. Sad but true.

[aztc]

32. You're on the right track..

Yes, most are owned by freight companies that agreed to give priority to passenger rail as part of the 1971 agreement. The NE corridor is an exception as Amtrak does own that.

But this is an important point. Freights hate sharing with passenger trains and resent having to give priority to them for a number of good reasons I won't go into here. Suffice to say a number of problems along this line are resolved by building an all new separate system, dedicated to passenger and light freight (same train only) along the interstate hwy system right of way.

It will be a MASSIVE public works project BIGGER than the Apollo program

[aztc]

19. Man on the moon scale project

Ok, I'll go for the nukes if we can build the national high speed rail system to use the power!.....

Nah, just kidding! No more nukes! }(

[Dead_Parrot]

20. Hey you want

diesel engines going coast-to coast? ;)

[aztc]

22. Not diesel, solar - Two links up !

Soalr Train:http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=35508&mesg_id=35648

[Dead_Parrot]

24. it's a long walk in winter... nt ;)

[aztc]

25. No sun=fossil fuel

See, that is why we need to cut way back on fossil fuel use today, so that we will have some to use when the sun is not out!

[Dead_Parrot]

26. No sun=nuclear

y'see? :D

[aztc]

27. Solve the waste problem...

In fact, nuclear energy is the heat that makes the steam to drive the turbines to generate 'lectricity. So, a very small reactor would power a really cool locomotive, so cheap you wouldn't have to meter it!

Steam powered this nation to world dominance, and may again, but hopefully not from nuclear energy unless it is safe. Especially not while so much thermal solar energy is available...Solar Train: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=35508&mesg_id=35648

[NickB79]

35. Solve the waste problem

As you say, what shall we do with the waste from coal, diesel, etc?

[philb]

21. U.S., China, India etc clearly on dead end paths- poor leadership

and no vision given the obvious serious trends such as population, energy, and pollution trends(global warming and worldwide mercury pollution,etc.)

China and India, with over 1 billion each are trying to emulate the horific U.S. energy consumption patterns by building lots of roads, making cars available to much more of their populations. But that is folly and serious mistake. We can't afford to have wasteful U.S. transportation and energy patterns in countries like China, India, etc. with billions of people given the fact we already clearly have too much combustion of fossil fuel, and too much pollution fueling global warming, etc.

But this likewise equally impacts the U.S. It means the U.S. must greatly cut back its per capita energy use and be hugely more efficient or else the whole current system collapses.

There doesn't appear to be any rational alternative to a major crash program to expand mass transit systems in the U.S., China, India, and other populated countries.

[aztc]

23. Yep

Short of a return to cave man days, I feel our options become rather limited if we rely on always increasing consumption, rather than figuring out ways to do the same things while wasting much less energy.

On the other hand, this is a democracy run by the people (with their wallets) and it is possible enough leaders will wake up and start living lives of moderation as an example to inspire others. :patriot:

[philb]

33. Very good idea; and badly needed

Few analysing world energy and pollution and congestion and transportation options could disagree that such needs to be implemented asap.