GM working on sexy new all-electric car for every country EXCEPT U.S.

[n2doc]

BY CHRISTOPHER MIMS
29 JUN 2011 11:19 AM


Germany, Korea, China, and now India are all venues for U.S. carmaking giant General Motors’ new all-electric hotness, the Chevrolet Beat.

The Beat sounds like exactly the thing to revive the flagging fortunes of G.M., bringing it into a 20th century in which soaring gas prices and ever-cheaper battery technology push consumers into the arms of the Nissan Leaf and the forthcoming Ford electric vehicles.

Except G.M. has no plans to release the Beat in the U.S., much less its electrified version. Maybe once your CEO has gone on record saying that global warming is a crock of sh*t, you don’t want to lose face in front of corporate America by releasing an electric car … even if it could save your company.

more

http://www.grist.org/list/2011-06-29-g.m.-working-on-sexy-new-all-electric-car-for-every-country-exce

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. How stupid of that CEO.

Saving face vs. saving your company?

It's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

:eyes:

[AtheistCrusader]

9. Might be this car doesn't meet US crash standards.

Or requires 240v or something.

Might have a coming-soon model for the US with a different name.

[lfairban]

11. Can do 240V, no problem, . . .

. . . other than the custom charger installation.

I am betting on the crash standards. We really need a medium commuter standard.

[happyslug]

17. Ford CEO made the same decision as to the Ford KA, Ford's city car in Europe

The head of Ford Motor Company basically said that given the US Market, Ford did NOT see how it could sell enough of the Ford KA in the US to break even. Ford believes that to many people will reject buying such a small car if they had to drive it on the same highways as big trucks.

Both Ford and Chevrolet believe that the Market for "City Cars" in the US has been filled by the SMART car. i.e. the people who were willing to buy a Ford Ka or a Chevrolet Beat already owns a SMART Car and thus NOT in the market for a new car. Furthermore the lowest price cars have always been the car market with the lowest profits, do to the fact most people looking at such small cars tend to put price over any other factor (Much more then larger car buyers). Without a $1 a gallon gasoline tax to encourage people to think in terms of MPG in addition to purchase price the market for such cars is a very tight market.

One last comment, I am in the market for a new car, I had to junk my old 1995 Jeep Wrangler and am presently using a 1997 Dodge Dakota. I have looked at small cars, and I want a very high mileage car, but when I do the numbers, keeping my paid for Dakota saves me more money then buying a new small car with twice the fuel economy assuming $4 a gallon. That remains true up till about $11 a gallon (At which point the price of gasoline justifies me to switch from a 18 mpg Dakota to a 42 mpg Chevrolet Cruze Eco. Thus it is more economically for me to keep my Dakota then to trade it in for a Eco.

If a car gets 50 mpg, that price points only drop to about $10 a gallon, thus as long as my Dakota is running, I am better off using then buying new. It is people like me that both the head of GM and Ford have both endorsed a $1 a gallon tax.

Side note: I did the calculations last month and I am NOT going to do it again here, but it was based on $4 a gallon gasoline, I drive 20,000 miles in a year AND my Dakota gets 20 mpg (It is a Five Speed Manual transmission, KBB retail value in 2008 had been $400, today KBB saying it is worth $2000). I generally get about 18 mpg, if I keep it under 50 mph. In addition I have reasonable alternatives, I use my bicycle to get to and from work, but I have to Drive to the County Courthouse on a regular basis. If I want to go to Pittsburgh (Just 70 miles away), the Amtrak round trip fair is only $28 (Which is about the same as the cost of gasoline for the same trip, at $4 a gallon).

My point is something like the Beat or the Ka would appear to me right now, I am looking for a high mileage car even at the loss of top end performance (i.e. I do NOT need a car that can go Zero to 60 in 8 seconds flat). I looked at the SMART car during the Cash for Junker program but could not get financing so I kept my Jeep at that period. I am looking at the Chevrolet Cruze Eco at the present time for it is four doors and get EPA 42 mpg. During the 2008 high gasoline prices I owned a 80cc moped that I drove all over the place, till the engine died. Enjoyed that little bike, took Allegheny Mountain quite well for an 80 cc engine (at a fast 25 mph up a 5 mile grade). Loved getting 90-100 mpg with it. The difference between taking it and my Jeep was NOT that much time difference, when I went to the Ebensburg Courthouse, 21 miles one way, My Jeep did it in about 40 minutes from the time I left my office till I arrived in the Courthouse, the Moped took about 50 minutes. The main problem for the Jeep was that at the end and start of any trip, it had to go at about the same speed as the Moped do to the type of road I had to run it on till I entered the local limited access expressway. Once on the Expressway, the speed difference was tremendous, but that ended once I left the Expressway. Thus overall average speed for the Moped vs the Jeep was NOT that great. When I took my Moped to Pittsburgh (A 72 mile trip), a trip the Jeep did in one hour 45 minutes, the Moped did in three hours on back roads, 2 1/2 hours if I took the same roads as the Jeep.

Yes, the Moped was noticeably slower, but NOT that much slower then a Car, if you exclude the interstates and other expressways. To put this is proper prospective, I have bicycled up to Ebensburg from Johnstown, it includes a three mile uphill grade till the top of Allegheny Mountain. It took me three hour up to Ebensburg, but only two hours back. The Moped did the same trip to Ebensburg in less then 1/3 of the time (50 minutes as opposed to three hours on bike). i.e. a 300% gain of the Moped over the Bicycle. The Jeep time saving over the moped was only 10 minutes or about 25%. Was using 500% more gasoline worth the time savings of 25%???

Jeep 20 mpg
80 cc Moped 100 mpg
500% of 20 mpg equals 100 mpg

10 minutes is 25% of 40 minutes

Most American reject the above numbers given the relatively historic low prices for gasoline in the US. In the 1950s and 1960s gasoline sold for 25 cents a gallon ($1.39 in 2010 Dollars). Today it is near $4,00 a gallon (Prices had drop in the last few weeks but $3.59 in 2011 dollars is NOT 25 cents in 1970 dollars for that was only $1.39 in 2010 Dollars).

Inflation Calculator:
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

In reverse inflation terms, $4 today is the same as .72 cents in 1970. I was 12 at that time and remember in the early 1970s, BEFORE the Arab embargo, my Father complaining about gasoline being high at 35 cents a gallon. We had high inflation in the 1970s, so by the time gasoline prices reached over 72 cents a gallon (about 1980), the value of the 72 cents had dropped to 63 cents. Now you had a jump in 1980-1981 to the highest prices gasoline had been since 1918, but that was followed by a relatively rapid decline do to the Oil Glut of the 1980s.

Here is a chart on gasoline prices in the US in 2010 Dollars in red (actual dollars are also on the chart, but in black on the bottom of the chart):



http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/images/charts/Oil/Gasoline_inflation_chart.htm
http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_rate/Gasoline_Inflation.asp

http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_rate/Gasoline_Inflation.asp

[bbinacan]

2. Why in the hell would I buy an electric car

that has to be charged after a few short miles and requires me to pay 13K to replace the battery after 3 years? Hell, for 13k I could get another car. Electric is not feasible yet but, I hope they keep working on it.

[Kennah]

5. You might want to fact check your post a bit

http://www.evnut.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV

Check out the Toyota RAV4-EV. They are still on the road, some are over 10 years, 100-150 miles a charge, and people are not having to replace the batteries every 3 years.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

6. My husband has been driving his 2005 hybrid Prius

since he bought it in 2005...

It runs like a dream, and the battery has not needed replacing, ever.

Of course this is a gas-electric hybrid, but I'm sure the battery is at least as good in the newer cars

[madokie]

7. Well for starters

None of what you typed is true
Many of us can see through the bullshit like you just posted and many of us could use and would like to have an electric car that would go at least, in our case, 40 miles between charges. That would take care of 95% of our driving.

[happyslug]

18. Is "many" enough to sustain the market?

When I was in Collage my professor told me of two survey done in the 1950s, one asked people what type of car they wanted to buy. People answered that they wanted a car with good gas mileage, comfort, small size, and looked good but not flashy.

The other survey asked people what they NEIGHBOR wanted in a car. They answer big engines, big car, big fins, lots of chrome and the hell with fuel economy.

The car company that did the first survey went bankrupt, the second made a killing.

These two surveys were told to us students to show us we have to be careful when we ask people questions. People always want to look reasonable, even if they are not. They want to look like they are NOT influence by emotions, even if they are. People want to look like they care for other people, even if they care less. Given that tendency people will always give "reasonable" and/or "Good" answer to anyone who asks them a question. They are NOT lying, they are just giving what they think the questioners wants to hear or if that is not possible what they think makes them look good.

On the other hand, when it comes to spending money, people will spend what makes them look good to other people, if that means a big flashy car with a huge engine and tall fins they will buy it is a heartbeat (and as the 60s turned into the 60, fins disappeared but the cars and their engines continued to get larger till the price of Gasoline started to raise about 1970, which it did slowly till the huge jump do to the Arab Oil embargo).

Just pointing out that why many people you know may say they want to buy something like the Beat, many of those same people never will even if it was available. GM, Ford and the rest of the Car makers know this. In the rest of the world, gasoline is a high price item compared to the US, even today Europe pays twice as much for gasoline as we Americans do. Thus the money saved by driving a high gasoline mileage car gets a high priority among car buyers then it does in the US and as such a larger share of the Car Market.

I have to agree with the CEOs of GM and Ford, the best thing Congress can do for the Auto Industry is to impose a $1 a gallon gasoline tax. It will force people to accept the fact gasoline will remain high forever and not drop like it did in the 1980s and 1990s. Until Congress passes a $1 a Gallon Gasoline Tax, they will be no market for city cars in the US, this includes the Beat.

[Donnachaidh]

3. remember to remind Congress of this the next time they want a bailout

Because you KNOW they will....

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

4. I asked a GM executive I encountered through work why they don't bring...

the wildly successful Opel Corsa to the US market, despite manufacturing them in Mexico in the same factory as multiple vehicle for the US market. I have driven the Corsa extensively in South Africa and Europe and LOVE IT. I contemplating importing one from Mexico for my mother but was scared off by tales from VW Bug enthusiasts.



He explained that GM is "horrifically" over-exposed to the small car market, at the time of this conversation the only "small car" offered was the shitacular Chevy Aveo et-al. He then listed the Malibu, Impala and PT Cruiser knock-off and a couple of defunct Pontiac models as the "small cars" that threatened the survival of GM. He then went on about how it was essential to focus on the cross-over and minivan replacement SUV market.

[AtheistCrusader]

8. What tales from Bug enthusiasts?

I don't follow. (have two in my backyard.)

Edit: Oh you mean scared off by tales of the goddamn import process. Yeah. I can see that.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

10. Import, insurance and environmental regulation problems,

I couldn't determine if I could even register the car in California and my insurance company wouldn't issue collision insurance.

Bought her a Fiesta sedan instead, I had to get her Chrysler Sebring off the road before it killed her or someone else.

[madokie]

16. Damn near bought a '72 beetle a couple weeks ago

The floor pan was still in good shape but the rest of the body was showing some rust so I passed on it. If'n I can find a good low mileage vw beetle I'll buy it in a heartbeat irregardless of the price as long as its not outrageous. I drove vw beetles for years right after returning from Vietnam.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

19. Their abundant in Mexico if you have the stomach for the paperwork

[happyslug]

21. A version of the WW bug BANNED by changes in US Safety laws in 1967

The rear axle on the original Bug did not and does not meet 1967 era safety rules in the US (The bug used a "Swing axle" prior to 1969, switched to an independent Suspensions in the 1969 model year to work around the US ban on Swing axles that came into play as part of the FEDERAL HIGHWAY SAFETY ACT of 1967).

To solve this problem, VW redesigned the rear axle for the US and European markets, but kept the old rear swing axle in the Mexican Market. Thus Mexican Bugs do NOT meet the requirements of the Federal Highway Safety Act of 1967.

Thus the Mexican Bug is illegal to operate in the US except as permitted in some border states and then only on the border.

A site that talked about the differences in working on the two different axles:
http://www.vw-resource.com/rear_suspension.html#swing

I had to look in more details, but the VW bug Swing Axle was caught up with the Corvair, which also used a swing axle (And I believe, but have NOT confirmed, used in the M151 series of 1/4 ton trucks, Jeeps, used by the US Army from the 1950s till the 1990s). In all three vehicles the Swing Axle made the car more dangerous if additional safety items were NOT added (The Corvair did NOT have such a device, but was added after it had earned its reputation for rolling over, a uncharacteristic is shared with the M151 series of Vehicle),

Confirmed the M151 had a Swing Axle in its early forms, the one the rolled over the most:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=69776419285

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

22. There is one in a garage on the next block, California plates and all

They imported it and sent it to Texas on a flatbed where somebody did the conversions. They said never-again.

[happyslug]

23. You have to replace that Axle...

You have to rebuild the entire rear end, where the Engine sits and since it is a rear driven rear engine vehicle you have to change everything excepting the engine and transmission (And even parts of the Transmission must be changed). Cheaper to buy a 1970 era bug and rebuild it completely.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

24. All said and done it cost them $16,000

but what price can you put on regaining your youth?

[OKIsItJustMe]

12. Um…

http://wot.motortrend.com/gm-tests-electric-chevy-beat-in-india-91115.html

…

For now, the car remains merely a prototype, but if Indian motorists express a sincere interest in electric cars and the country’s charging infrastructure continues to grow, don’t be surprised if GM pushes an electrified offering into the growing market in the years to come.

[parkia00]

13. Not Just Electric Cars

That's just one aspect of the US Auto market I cannot understand. There is a huge demand for reliable mid sized pick up trucks in the US that basically only Toyota with the Tacoma supplies after Ford retires the Ranger line. I've been poking around the pick up forums for some time and people are clamoring for a diesel power turbo charged engine small pickup set up which is just not available in the US markets. The only diesels available are huge units in the full sized pick ups. And after Ford retires the Ranger the choices are even smaller. Now here's the real kicker. Ford is only retiring the Ranger only in the North American market. They are coming out with an awesome brand new Ranger for 2012 with powerful but small capacity commonrail diesels including a 200hp version that is more then enough power for such a vehicle. You have 3 choices of bodies, single cab, double cab 4-door and extended cab 2-door. This Ranger will be sold in Europe, Asia, Australia, Africa and South America. It will NOT be available in the US or Canada. Go figure. It will be introduced to my area next year and plan to give it serious thought as replacement my 2003 diesel Ranger.

[n2doc]

14. I don't understand that either

People outside of farms and contractors just don't need the behemoths that they are selling nowadays. I see plenty of the monsters, almost always shiny, beds unscratched or sullied with cargo, roaring away at full power from each stop.

[Nihil]

15. It's all about profit & posing, not practicality.

As long as there are over-paid idiots who will pay over the odds
for a pointless penis extension (or substitute), the practical sized
vehicles will appear "unwanted" to the exec-level beancounters and
other "decision makers" ...

"One born every minute" + "A sucker & their money are soon parted" = Profit!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

20. Three F's: Financing, Financing and more Financing

The attitude among all the automakers is when they sell an entry level vehicle they are leaving money on the table. The previling attitude in America for decades has been debt is a suitable substitute for affordability.