Location Matters

[XemaSab]

The idea of “green energy” is popular today, as it should be. It makes sense for us to find ways to produce power in non-polluting ways, from renewable sources, to protect the environment of our planet and to create a sustainable future. Most birders probably would agree with that.

One potential source of “green energy” is wind power. It’s an attractive idea: harnessing the wind to create electricity sounds like the cleanest, safest solution imaginable. Some people have even begun to use images of wind turbines to symbolize a new era of clean, green, responsible energy. But there’s one problem with this picture: tall structures with rapidly spinning blades represent a potential hazard, obviously, to things that fly. Any wind turbine put up anywhere is likely to kill a few birds, eventually.

If a turbine kills just a few birds, we may have to accept that as a necessary part of the cost of producing clean energy. After all, there are many, many human activities that cause some amount of bird mortality. But there are some places where the risk to birds and other wildlife is so great that wind turbines should be outlawed altogether.

Birders should be united on this issue. We should all agree that wind turbines should be kept out of key areas of bird habitat. But unfortunately, the birding community has been mostly silent on this subject. There is even argument and infighting within our community. And I know part of the reason: there are forces that are working actively to keep birders confused and ambivalent, to keep us from standing up and protecting the birds that we care about.

http://birdingblogs.com/2011/kennkaufman/location-matters

[handmade34]

1. we need to be pragmatic, thoughful and wise

http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/cats/pdf/impacts_of_free_ranging_domestic_cats.pdf

"Abstract. American birds face an estimated 117 to 157 million exotic predators in the form of free-ranging
domestic cats (Felis catus), which are estimated to kill at least one billion birds every year in the
United States. Cats have contributed to declines and extinctions of birds worldwide and are one of the
most important drivers of global bird extinctions..."

[Nihil]

3. Fear not ...

... when food shortages start, the number of birds killed by domestic cats
will peak briefly then suddenly decrease ...

:evilgrin:

[Dogmudgeon]

18. Rolling on the floor ...

... laughing my ass off ...

... planning to check the cat trap for dinner.

ROFLMAOPTCCTFD

What say you, Mr. Rofl?

:rofl:

Daddy like.

--d!

[Nihil]

19. Glad you liked it ...

... I was just dreading the poison-pen response from kitty-lovers everywhere
(i.e., those who prefer their avian-fed felix steaks still wandering around).

Oh ... wait ... :hide:

[M155Y_A1CH]

2. Just wondering...

How many birds are killed or have their lifespan and/or breeding capabilities
hampered by air and water pollution from coal electric.
Just because you can't count the bodies at the base of it, doesn't mean a coal plant kills less.

[DCKit]

4. +1

Is it also completely impossible to warn them away from wind farms?

[txlibdem]

5. The OP says, "Mooo."

It's like one of those toys that says, "the Cow says, Mooo" when you pull the handle.

The Sheep Goes: Not In My Backyard!

[XemaSab]

7. You're calling Kenn Kaufman a sheep?

Brave words, little man, brave words.

[txlibdem]

8. Sheep says "what?"

Brave words, little boy.

[txlibdem]

6. The 10 Major Wind Power Companies in the World

"The 10 Major Wind Power Companies in the World"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7XTLObWVJA&feature=related

***I hate youtube videos with no human narration but I'll excuse this one. Wind Power To The People!

[txlibdem]

9. This Kaufman guy is LAUGHABLE

These forces of division all seem to be people who are paid by the wind power industry, but you can't always tell who's paying a given writer, so here's an easier way to recognize them: they always compare wind turbines to other sources of mortality. They'll admit that turbines kill some birds, but then they'll immediately point out that more birds are killed by some other threats: roaming house cats, automobiles, window strikes. They'll quote alarming statistics about the numbers of birds that succumb to these other killers, and they'll slip in something about the benefits from the turbines (like, "that's one bird killed for every 150 homes powered by wind energy," or words to that effect). The underlying message is that wind turbines pose only a minor threat to birds relative to the benefits they bring, and that we birders would be silly to oppose these wonderful energy sources.

http://birdingblogs.com/2011/kennkaufman/location-matters

You get the proper effect if you read this guy's writing as if Glenn Beck is saying it:
"These forces of division... -- let me go to the black board..."

:rofl:

Truth and Kenn Klownffman are not on a first name basis. Here are the statistics (from that radical source called the United States Fish and Wildlife Service) for how many birds are killed each year and from what:

Collision-caused bird deaths
=== Building window strikes: 97 to 976 MILLION a year
=== Communications towers: between 4 and 50 MILLION a year
=== Electrical lines (high tension lines): as many as 174 MILLION a year
=== Cars: 60 MILLION *or more* a year (does not include aircraft collisions which are expected to be relatively few)

=== Deaths caused by wind turbines: 33,000 a year

http://www.fws.gov/birds/mortality-fact-sheet.pdf

Still in Glenn Beck breathless quivering voice: "Well, it's pretty clear that this CONSPIRACY goes up to the highest levels of the government... Now let me show you the Satanic symbols on the NBC headquarters building..."

:rofl:

The Fish and Wildlife Service goes on to say that Pesticides kill 72 MILLION birds a year. ]Domestic rural cats kill up to 39 MILLION birds a year --not feral cats, not de-evolved caveman cats, nor cats on steroids... regular cats like you or I might own. 39 million bird deaths. And the offshore birds don't get a free ride: Tens to Hundreds of Thousands of seabirds are killed by the fisheries industry in what is called "by-catch," meaning that they just got caught up in the nets or whatever of the fishing vessels.

Kenn Kroffman and I can clearly see the truth: the "GUBMINT" is killing all the birds!!! And then they're trying to cover it up. LOCK YER DOORS, FOLKS!

:rofl:

[joshcryer]

10. "Here are the statistics for how many birds are killed each year"

Heh, you do realize that you just proved his point, don't you?

[txlibdem]

11. You do realize that you've just made a ridiculous statement, don't you?

Can you comprehend the difference between a tiny number compared to 6 huge, ginormous numbers?

Your comment is purely idiotic and displays a lack of understanding of 4th grade Math.

"Ummm. 4 is just as big as 30,000... can I have my pudding now mommy?"

[joshcryer]

22. What ridiciulous statement? You made the point of the person you were quoting.

Not my fault you don't see how you did exactly what he accused others of doing.

[txlibdem]

36. Sweet Jesus Christ on a Crutch

You are being purposefully dense, right? Please tell me you are.

I refuse to believe that you think that 30,000 is a larger number than 400 MILLION.

What school did you go to? I'd like to send a personal note of thanks to your math teacher (and the school board who failed to fire them).

[txlibdem]

12. Glenn Beck is 100% anti-wind power, wants no wind turbines

Especially in Xemasab's back yard. Glenn is dead set against wind power.

"So I said, okay, you're into wind. Wind doesn't work."
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/10382/

"More Beck Babble: Wind power needs nukes to work
By David Neiwert"
http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/more-beck-babble

"It all comes down to this: The climate cult is teaching your children that the earth is God."
http://www.glennbeckunhinged.com/

"You got to have an enemy to fight... enemy: the Jew. Al Gore's enemy, the U.N.'s enemy: global warming."
http://www.glennbeckunhinged.com/ - not specifically targeting wind, just the science behind the need for wind power

"BECK: Wow, see what a difference — I mean, should I say, what a difference G.E. makes? Is it a coincidence that a particular network's parent company is the largest supplier of wind turbines in the U.S.? Wait, who was in front of the wind turbine? Oh, my gosh — it's Barack Obama!

I'm not the only one asking this question. Everybody should be."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,517778,00.html

------------------
If it were me, I would choose my company a little more carefully. But that's just me...

[XemaSab]

13. Did you totally miss the title of the blog post?

LOCATION MATTERS

[txlibdem]

14. Gray Matter Matters

Your OP is blatantly of the NIMBY variety. It deserves no further comments.

[XemaSab]

15. He's not even talking about his yard!

He's talking about the wildlife refuge he manages, which is critical stopover habitat for neotropical migrants!

[txlibdem]

16. "He's talking about the wildlife refuge HE MANAGES"

That is classified as his back yard. He has an economic incentive to see no development, no changes in that area. He will lose his job, might lose his house if all that are were developed or otherwise lost.

Is that a recipe for an objective opinion. Hardly. But it is a guarantee of self-interest.

[XemaSab]

17. Are you serious?

There's a wildlife refuge there because it's critical stopover habitat for migratory birds.

This guy spent a year sleeping under bridges and eating cat food while looking at birds. The money does not matter at all.

[txlibdem]

20. Ah, but *THE POWER*

THE POWER! Ah, yes!!! Give me more power. The power to stop others from doing what they want. I only want TO WIN!!! I don't give a crap about these little germ-ridden dirt grubbing creatures.

I WANT THE POWER!!!!

--Excerpted from when I read the mind of this self-important, self-aggrandizing small minded person. Once I was finished reading his mind, I had to go vomit!

[XemaSab]

21. (cough)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenn_Kaufman

[txlibdem]

26. (cough) -- you should get that checked

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

[joshcryer]

24. I bet that's what all those people were saying when they made the National Parks.

Google PBS The National Parks for all those power seeking control freaks who wanted to set aside some land so that people and wildlife could coexist.

[txlibdem]

27. People trying to improve life FOR US ALL -vs- some guy trying to save his job and his back yard

Bringing up the "TRUE" ENVIRONMENTALISTS as a case for the modern day self-centered, self-aggrandizing, myopic so-called environmentalists is the purest form of deflection.

This Krappman guy and Teddy Roosevelt (etc) have absolutely nothing in common --except that they both breathe air.

[XemaSab]

28. You're basically admitting that that refuge would lose a lot of wildlife

if windmills were built there, yet you accuse the people who are trying to protect ONE OF THE BEST MIGRATORY STOPOVERS IN THE UNITED STATES of being selfish.

They're selfish because warbler populations have plummeted in the last 50 years and they want to protect warblers and other species?

[txlibdem]

29. Oh, save the warbler... BUT DOOM 10,000 MARINE SPECIES+

Good trade-off, genius!

Until you get it through your head that we have to look at the good of the PLANET, not just what's good FOR YOUR BACK YARD --or for your pet little project-- then you are a part of the problem and not any part of the solution!!!

Your myopia borders on the sociopathic. You are ok with the deaths of thousands of marine creatures. You are ok with the extinction of dozens or hundreds of woodland creatures in southern california, Arizona and Nevada due to the absolute certainty of desertification caused by global climate change. You are ok with the deaths of countless other migratory bird species throughout the desert southwest. You are signing the death warrant for thousands of species of plants than can only thrive in the current niche they enjoy. And you are ok with that. You are ok with the loss of wetlands and the countless species that need them to survive!!!

You are ok with all that death -- because you don't give a crap about them. You and Krappmann only give a crap about your little power base, your back yard, your own little bailiwick.

That is not the definition of an environmentalist. That is the definition of a slash-and-burn CAPITALIST -- looking out for their own self interest and to hell with the rest of the world.

[XemaSab]

31. There have been 41 species of warbler recorded in Ohio

Most of the warbler species in North America.

They're keystone species for the entire eastern half of the continent.

[txlibdem]

34. 10,000+8,000+2400+700-41 = MURDERER

Tens of thousands of species versus 41.

I do believe that I would go to jail if I openly did that kind of thing. I'm surprised that you can sleep at night.

[txlibdem]

37. Your honor, I'd like to say something in my defense, please...

I admit to killing 10,000 in the oceans, 8,000 in the western woodlands, 2,400 in the desert, and also killing 700 plant species as well.

But I SAVED 41 LITTLE BIRDIES == so you're not going to put me in the electric chair... right?

[joshcryer]

40. The current approach is not going to save anything.

I suggest you get used to it or advocate magic technology like I do to stem the insanity.

[txlibdem]

42. Magic Technology? Or let's roll up our damn sleeves and get it done technology.

Giant solar power plants in the desert southwest:

• Solar Thermal (aka Concentrated Solar Thermal) Power plants, plus
  
• Solar PV, giant arrays that stretch as far as the eye can see -AND- solar on every rooftop possible
  
• Space Based Solar Power - one utility in California has already ordered one of these -- where does the sunshine come from anyway

Giant wind farms that stretch from Texas to Canada

Geothermal Power Plants that use the constant heat from the core of the planet

Tidal Power - tide goes in, tide goes out, we make electricity -- Bill'o The Clown would say that God made it that way

Wave Power - as long as we have a moon, we'll have waves. So why not make electricity by stringing together mile after mile of wave power generators

Nuclear Power Plants

• First, to replace our 104 existing nuclear power plants that are aging and are old designs that do not have the modern safety features
  
• Thorium cycle reactors like the LFTR (Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor) that make power and provide heat for desalination of sea water
  
• ... does double duty: gives us much needed reliable base load electricity -AND- provides fresh water, a commodity that will be scarce in decades to come
  
• IFRs to burn up the existing stockpile of used reactor fuel
  
• SMRs - mini reactors like the Traveling Wave Reactor, Westinghouse's IRIS, etc -- there are 133 of them in operation in 28 countries

When President Kennedy gave us the challenge to land a man on the moon (and bring him safely back to Earth), lots of people said it's too hard, we just can't do it, it sounds too much like magic, mommy I want a lollypop, boo hoo we might have to think too much to get that done in a decade! We heard all the belly aching, all the lame excuses, all the naysayers and all the special interests that wanted money to flow THEIR way instead. But we went for it. And, by damn, we got it done and we did it on time.

The Moon Shot created industries that never would have existed, created millions of American jobs, changed the very fabric of our society.

We need an "Energy Shot" to get us all focused on getting this done. And we need it now, today. We need to get our people moving on all of the above energy sources and stop the use of fossil fuels ASAP. We will not get a second chance. Energy Secretary, Stephen Chu has recently called for a "Solar Shot" with the aim of bringing down the cost of solar power by 75%. That's a start.

We can do this. Unless we just want to whine and piss and moan about how difficult it's going to be...

[txlibdem]

30. Comparing yourself and this Kraftmane to the TRUE environmentalists is fraud

Teddy Roosevelt and the others who cared about the environment knew darn well that you could not just save one little square block -- you doom the planet if your thinking is so juvenile as that.

The true environmentalists know that you have to look at the entire ecosystem -- and thanks to global climate change, each and every niche environment is threatened. And to save one of them you have to stop the cause of the problems for all of them! The entire southwest will become a huge desert and hundreds of mammals and thousands of insects and thousands of plants WILL CEASE TO EXIST.

Small minds will not solve this problem.

OPEN YOUR MIND. PLEASE.

Stop putting up roadblocks to the solution that will save us all. Stop being part of the problem. You will have the blood of countless species on your hands if you do not stop your postage stamp mentality and THINK GLOBALLY.

[joshcryer]

32. Um the national parks started with small parcels.

Clue yourself in dude.

[txlibdem]

35. Um the national parks started because there were TRUE ENVIRONMENTALISTS at work

They weren't just trying to win for their own tiny little pet cause --whether it gave them a wet spot in their underwear to win or not.

These single cause, so-called environmentalists are nothing of the sort. They are interested only in their own selves. They want the power. They want the "charge" they get out of winning.

If they were true environmentalists then why in the hell are they not discussing the thousands of marine creatures that they are dooming to extinction by their actions.

BY THEIR ACTIONS!!!

[XemaSab]

38. Do you think that the first people who advocated endangered species protection

were advocating their own tiny little pet cause?

Then why do you think people who advocate for bird conservation as a whole are advocating their own tiny little pet cause?

And if you're that passionate about fighting climate change, why are you rejecting the best power source capable of getting us off fossil fuels, and instead advocating for a nickel-and-dime nonsolution?

[txlibdem]

44. Do you actually read the posts you reply to???

My post said exactly the OPPOSITE! I suggest you take a second to actually read posts before you respond...

The originators of the national parks system were TRUE ENVIRONMENTALISTS. They cared about the entire nation. Not just about their tiny little piece of it. They knew that the wildlife of this nation was a resource that would be forever GONE if huge changes were not made --and soon.

Your view, and that of your hero, Mr. Kruffmen, is to save YOUR BACK YARD, to save HIS JOB, to save ONE LITTLE TINY PATCH OF LAND. ---BUT--- in doing so you are DOOMING thousands of species elsewhere to extinction.

Teddy Roosevelt would take you to task, young man, he would have you crying on the floor inside of 30 seconds. Your views are not those of a true environmentalist. Your views are those of a self-interested, self-centered person trying to keep something FOR YOURSELF, and to hell with the rest of the world.

This is bigger than your tiny little patch of land. What happens due to global climate change will kill off thousands of species --EVERY WHERE. And I guarantee your little patch of land will never be the same if we do not end the use of fossil fuels and stop the most devastating effects of global climate change.

But you won't listen. You don't give a crap about the species of marine creatures that are already facing dangerous times, some teetering on the brink --right now. All you care about is trying to manipulate enough people so you keep a nice pretty view out your back window. Well to hell with that idea!

I want to save the entire planet. That is the difference between me and you.

[XemaSab]

46. You know what your argument reminds me of?

Your argument reminds me of deniers who claim that scientists are fabricating climate change studies so they can get grant money.

I've never BEEN to Black Swamp. I've never SEEN eastern migration. Someday I hope to go there and witness the spectacle, but it's not going to be this year. Trying to claim that I'm acting in my own self interest is ridiculous. Furthermore, since Kenn isn't here to defend himself, if the windmills are built he will still have a job. The refuges along the Great Lakes will still be there in perpetuity, and they will still need people to work there.

The refuges are a tiny remnant of a once enormous swamp that covered northwest Ohio and northeast Indiana. It wasn't protected, so now it's a couple shitty little patches that are further threatened.

You accuse me of putting too much focus on a few species, but I have to ask you why you don't seem concerned about individual species. Bald eagles, peregrine falcons, brown pelicans, and other species were almost EXTINCT, and I saw the eagle and falcon from my back yard over the weekend. Species like the passenger pigeon and American chestnut are GONE, and they were major species in the ecology of the eastern US.

A few windmills cannot get us off oil and coal, but they can take a devastating toll on already fragile species.

If we don't care enough to save a species as crushingly beautiful as the chestnut-sided warbler, then what does that say about us?

[txlibdem]

50. Your argument reminds me of Bernie Madoff --screwing everyone possible so he can live a good life

That is your track record so far. I have no time for self-centered people who would gladly let tens of thousands of species die out to satisfy your petty little need to "be important" or to impose your will on others.

[joshcryer]

39. Do you think that by starting small they ever thought they'd get huge hundred square mile...

...refuges? Please spare me the absolute nonsense. Watch the documentary. Most of them were frightened that they were going to barely get what they wanted.

[XemaSab]

41. Yosemite was originally JUST the valley floor

:o

[txlibdem]

45. White man speak with forked tongue

You are talking out both sides of your mouth!

You *claim* that you want to save species. Well what about the corals that are already dying by the millions due to global climate change (which causes increased ocean acidification).

If you were an actual environmentalist then you would give a crap about the marine species that will DIE without the corals. But you don't. That tells me all I need to know about your supposed "environmental cred."

My ancestors saw you destroy everything your hand touched. Now I'm looking at you and seeing the same indifference to the Earth and its creatures. No wonder that Native American was crying in the commercial (from the 1970s). I want to spit, just from reading your self-centered posts.

[XemaSab]

47. Well you can go spit then

From another article by Kenn:

Several years ago, when the first cell phone tower stabilized by guy wires was erected in this area, the farmer who had leased that section of his field to the communications company for the tower came into a local wildlife research facility one spring morning with a bushel basket filled with dead adult male Rose-breasted Grosbeaks. He had picked them up until the basket was full (he said there were lots more, but he only picked up what the basket would hold) and brought them in to see if anyone could tell him what they were.
One night.
One tower.
One set of guy wires.
One bushel basket of dead birds.

http://birdingwithkennandkim.blogspot.com/2010/11/battle-of-blades.html

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_CFYJaZ_In7g/TOMtlfB5qPI/AAAAAAAABJs/7H6siLcUdho/s1600/Rose-breasted+Grosbeak+OH+7+kk.jpg

Also, how do you know I'm white?

[joshcryer]

23. We should all be self-interested in our landscapes and our environment.

The point being that wind will not take us off coal before feedbacks hit a tipping point (2035 wind will have only reduced our coal usage by 25%).

[txlibdem]

25. (by)2035 wind will have only reduced our coal usage by 25%

That's great news! Then we consider the 25% that Solar Thermal can replace.

Then we concider the 25% that Solar PV can replace.

Then we consider the 10% that Geothermal Power Plants can replace.

Then we consider the 5% that tidal power and wave power can replace.

25% + 25% + 25% +10% + 5% = 90% ... We can get rid of 90% of the coal

==========> then add in another 100 gigawatts by nuclear power plants and we are DONE WITH COAL! FOREVER!

Win. Win.

[joshcryer]

33. Solar thermal is not slated to do much. Please see WEO 2010.

Solar PV likewise.

And their projections are very liberal.

[txlibdem]

43. Whose projections are those? WEO is like fossil fuel central

That's like saying that your Jeep Wrangler is projected to only be able to go another 50 miles. But if you put SOME MORE GAS in the dang thing... well, miracle of miracles, it goes another hundred or two!!!

Here's some interesting math from your beloved WEO:

The use of modern renewable energy — including hydro, wind, solar,
geothermal, modern biomass and marine energy — triples between 2008 and 2035, its share in total
energy demand increasing from 7% to 14%.

Did ya catch that? TRIPLES... from 7% to 14%... Yeah, I trust your source. Really I do. ROFL

The facts stand for themselves. All we need is a 200 mile by 200 mile tract in the desert southwest filled with Concentrating Solar Thermal and Solar PV power plants to supply 100% of the energy needs of America (while the sun is shining). It would take a larger amount of land if we add storage technology so that the region can supply electricity 24/7. And that isn't counting Wind, Geothermal, Tidal and Wave power as additional sources of renewable energy.

Then we add in Generation IV nuclear power plants with a 200 GW to 300 GW nameplate capacity and we're looking at the end of fossil fuels --FOREVER.

So sorry the WEO won't like that at all...

[XemaSab]

48. You claim elsewhere in this thread to want to SAVE the southwest

Where do you propose to get 4000++ square miles of land that doesn't have endangered plants or endangered animals and isn't already in a national park, monument, or wildlife refuge?

'Cause you're right, there are endangered species EVERYWHERE and the desert is no exception.

If we destroy the remaining wildlands of the United States in order to "save the planet," what have we really saved?

[txlibdem]

49. You honestly don't even bother reading others' posts, do you?

I never said I wanted to save the southwest. I want to save the world and that will require a drastic change -- and, yes, some sacrifices.

Thanks to that bastard idiot Ronald Reagan we don't have an ounce of extra time, nor an ounce of extra resources to waste.

Your comment, "If we destroy the remaining wildlands of the United States in order to 'save the planet,' what have we really saved?" truly shows your myopic and self-centered attitude. What of the wild areas that are currently being blasted with dynamite and flattened by mountain top removal to get to your beloved coal??? What of the Pacific Northwest? There aren't any species you give a crap about there? What about the northern states? What about Florida?

You don't give a crap about anything but your own self interest, your own back yard. If you think for one second that the rest of us are going to give a tinker's damn about your petty little postage stamp of a "wildlife habitat" when you show absolutely zero concern for the millions upon millions of square miles elsewhere then you are dead wrong.

When I read your first few posts about the desert, I had sympathy for the critters there and thought we should do something to try and mitigate any damage caused by the huge solar power projects we truly need in order to save the rest of the planet. But now that I know that you care only for yourself and your own little back yard, I've lost all sympathy for your cause. As a matter of fact, I'm downright angry that you want to kill all those other species by blocking our progress toward putting solar power plants where they will do the most good and the least harm. Wrap yourself in "environmentalists clothing" (as in wolf in sheep's clothing) all you want but I see through you to your core... and I have no time for people like you in my life.

[XemaSab]

51. You don't even read my posts

I've never been to Black Swamp.

I have been to California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Maine, Florida, Alaska, Alberta, and points in between, and I am concerned with preserving wildlands in all those places.

I'm concerned about the border fence, I'm concerned about water policy in Florida, I'm concerned about acid rain and drilling the tar sands and a host of other issues.

You and I cannot save the whole planet. We can only save parts.

How are you helping to save parts of the planet?