(UK) "Cold realities of the wind farms that won't work when it snows"

[phantom power]

The problem seems to be that the cold weather was accompanied by high pressure and a distinct lack of wind and meant at a time when even the most frugal were turning up the thermostat, one of the country's most controversial energy supplies all but dried up.

At its lowest ebb, figures show only 0.2 per cent of a possible five per cent of the UK's energy was being generated by turbines and, on average, they operated at just 16 per cent capacity throughout the cold spell.

With the turbines not turning, the country was forced to rely even more heavily on foreign pipelines and when those plans stalled, the National Grid had to ask its biggest users to ration supplies. A potential
crisis was quickly averted, but with the country set to increase its dependence on wind power, warning bells have now been sounded.

"At times of high demand in cold weather, there is a tendency for there to be no wind," says a spokesman for the Renewable Energy Foundation, an independent charity set up to encourage the development of renewable energy and energy conservation "It's an energy source which provides very little reliable capacity. It's not a problem at the moment because we have supplies of oil and gas from the North Sea, but further down the line, when 20 per cent of all our energy is being produced by renewables and we hit a similar weather pattern, then we will have a problem."

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/features/Cold-realities-of-the-wind.6062117.jp

[madokie]

1. Only fools would build wind farms for base load

it the wind is blowing enjoy the free energy but when it doesn't don't be depending on it as this seems to want to suggest they're doing

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HBravo]

2. MN is having the same problem. nt

[kristopher]

26. You mean the 11 used turbines that were just brought up from California without being winterized?

Or the thousands of others there that are performing just fine.

[dipsydoodle]

3. ask its biggest users to ration supplies ?

Didn't quite work like that. The big users get a subsidised price / therm conditional on them paying heavy penalties when consumer demand is high. That's what price is - a rationing function.

Aside from that this is a very weak arguement by the Yorkshire Post against clean wind power - not a go at you BTW phantom power.

[thunder rising]

4. So the biggest users have a trigger point on them (some declaration) that kicks in a higher rate?

I'm just asking. Like the biggest users agree to cut their power use or pay heavy penalties upon a declaration of some sort that the provision is kicking in?

[dipsydoodle]

6. That's exactly correct

100%.

[truedelphi]

5. They rather left out that all sources of centralized electricity

Tend to go out during strorms.

Having lived in some very windy places, it was not unusual for the power lines to go down. But you wouldn't see news media framing "electricity" as a bad idea.

It is only the newer forms of energy that they pick on. The Big Players are being disingenuious - but they will use any trick in the book to discredit renewable energy.

[dipsydoodle]

7. Yup

any trick in the book.

[FBaggins]

12. No they don't.

There are storms that take out SOME capacity (and commingling distribution with production is unnecessarily deceptive)... but there are no other SOURCES of centralized electricity that you KNOW will be unavailable if the temperature drops too low.

This isn't the "big players" being disingenuous... the most damning part of the article was a statement from the Renewable Energy Foundation. When did they become "big players" ???

[truedelphi]

13. Have you read the book "Toxic Sludge is Good For You?"

That book expiains how these various foundations are often just the arm of some lobbyist group.

So another question I would ask you - Who is the Renewable Energy Foundation?

These days, and maybe this foundation is not one of them, but maybe fifty percent of all
these orgs are fake fronts for lobbyists. So that something labeling itself "The Healthy Fruits for Kids" foundation could well be an arm of Monsanto with its pesticides and GMO's.

One other point - I will grant you the point that the centralized renewable energy installations can go down due to weather and thus people are out the power they need.

So why don't we have solar panels on almost everyone's roofs, with the batteries to back up that power during a week of sun and store it for use the following week when it is cloudy? If we had real staetsmen and real stateswomen representing us, that is how the energy crisis would be handled. But instead we only have our sold out legislators and they are none too keen on losing that Corporate Campaign cash for their next election, so the problem will not be solved at anything near the speed that is needed.

[FBaggins]

14. Thank you.

While I disagree with much of what you said (and will rebut it)... you were at least civil.

No... I haven't read the book, but I am reasonably familiar with this group. They're legit.

So why don't we have solar panels on almost everyone's roofs, with the batteries to back up that power during a week of sun and store it for use the following week when it is cloudy?

Because such a thing is not currently possible (economically). You have no idea how substantial those batteries would have to be (involving massive amounts of chemicals btw). As I posted on one of the other threads, you should look up the world's largest battery. 2000 square meters and 1200 tons. It's an essential part of Fairbanks, Alaska's grid. They're worried that if power goes out, things would freeze up before people could get their generators online. That massive battery supports 12,000 people and is good for... wait for it... seven minutes.

It works out to about one 175 lb battery for each person. Now... there are factors here (like cold temperatures) that impact battery life, but you've got to figure that if you have a family of four, you're using something like 700 pounds of battery to power your home for ten... maybe fifteen minutes.

In short... you couldn't possibly store up days worth of power. That's if there was any excess capacity from solar panels in the first place. You might be shocked to learn how many you need to power the home even when the sun is shining.

None of this should be taken as a disagreement with the value of solar power overall... just the mistaken notion by some that it can substantially replace core reliable power generation. It can help a great deal on the margins (as can wind) and for specific applications, it isn't a solution.

[conscious evolution]

17. I agree

The storage capacity is just not out there yet.
People are working on it and hopefully in the near future a solution will be found.

[bananas]

18. No, this group is not "legit" - they're wackos who are visited by melon-sized spiritual energy balls

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Energy_Foundation

The Renewable Energy Foundation (REF), founded in 2004, is based in the United Kingdom, and according to the The Guardian "is backed by anonymous wealthy individuals and hopes to gather the 80 or so groups opposing wind farms around the country."<1>

REF released a 2008 report that defames onshore wind power and was co-authored by Robert Barfoot, chairman of the North Devon branch of the Campaign to Protect Rural England (CPRE)<2>. The CPRE is an openly anti-onshore wind organization<3><4>, having stated, "CPRE will vigorously oppose proposals for major wind turbine development in and adjacent to areas of outstanding natural beauty and national parks where these would be damaging to the landscape.<5>"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/jul/15/environment.environment

Edmonds joins fight against wind farms

* Paul Brown, environment correspondent
* The Guardian, Thursday 15 July 2004 00.48 BST

An organisation is being launched today to fight the "grotesque political push" for wind turbines, with Noel Edmonds, the TV personality, as its chairman.

The Renewable Energy Foundation, or Ref, is backed by anonymous wealthy individuals and hopes to gather the 80 or so groups opposing wind farms around the country. It says turbines will irreversibly damage the landscape for a "pittance of power".

<snip>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noel_Edmonds

<snip>

For many years Edmonds has been a believer in Spiritualism, in particular the concept of Cosmic ordering. He has claimed that he is occasionally visited by two melon-sized "spiritual energy" balls, which appear over his shoulders and which he believes to be the spirits of his dead parents. Edmonds further claims that the orbs only appear on digital photographs.<51>

<snip>

[FBaggins]

21. "legit" and " sane" aren't the same thing.

The point was that they don't appear to be oil/gas/nuke supporters who are just pretending to be clean energy supporters.

[truedelphi]

24. My laugh of the day, and one of life's finer points that so many people

Still do not understand.

[bananas]

19. Noel Edmonds launches 'cosmic ordering' app for iPhone users to call on the universe for help

This guy was the founding chairman of "Renewable Energy Foundation":

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1214995/Noel-Edmonds-launches-Cosmic-Ordering-app-iPhone-users-universe-help.html

Noel Edmonds launches 'cosmic ordering' app for iPhone users to call on the universe for help

By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 2:21 PM on 21st September 2009

Want a great new job or meet that special someone? Television presenter Noel Edmonds has launched an iPhone application that will call on the cosmos to help you.

The app is based on the New Age philosophy of 'cosmic ordering' and allows people to place orders with the cosmos asking for their wishes to come true and then record what happens.



The £1.20 app harnesses the 'powerful force' of the cosmos, according to Noel

Noel Edmonds has been pictured with cosmic symbols drawn on his hand during the TV show Deal Or No Deal

<snip>

[bananas]

20. Here's a link to the book "Toxic Sludge Is Good For You" by the Center for Media and Democracy

Here's the link to the book: http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy.html
It's a classic.
They have several websites:
www.prwatch.org and www.sourcewatch.org have been around for a long time and are excellent websites.
www.frontgroups.org is a joint project with Consumers Union (publisher of Consumer Reports magazine).

[truedelphi]

25. Thanks fo rthe links. I've bought that book several times,

Lent it out and of course it is so good I know I will never see those copies again.

[wtmusic]

22. All that tells me is there isn't enough financial promise in wind

to make it worth lobbying for. T. Boone Pickens pretended like there was, but it was all about his holdings in natural gas.

[kristopher]

27. Then you completely fail to understand the economics and practical performance of wind.

[Dogmudgeon]

23. You can't argue with Conspiracy Theorists

When you do, it only proves that you're part of The Conspiracy.

--d!

[XemaSab]

8. The biggest users are likely to be stores, offices, and factories

If the biggest users are shut down when the weather is bad, that sounds like a quick exit for the UK economy.

[dipsydoodle]

9. They don't shut down completely.

They're more careful how they use power. This isn't a frequent event anyway - we're having an unusually cold winter here.

[Vinnie From Indy]

10. Yeah, but think of the power in a hurricane!

Wind power is still an excellent idea to REDUCE reliance on fossil fuels.

[XemaSab]

11. I can't tell if this comment is supposed to be ironic

:shrug:

[pscot]

16. In a thread about phantom power

posted by Phantom Power, almost every comment carries a slight ironic charge. Ironic spikes can occur all too easily, and meta-irony can blow weaker minds right and left, alarming the mod squad and causing entire threads to shut down. Just sayin'.

[kristopher]

28. Actually "at times of high demand in cold weather" there is usually a LOT of wind.

An astroturf, antiwind site that is probably funded by the coal lobby in Britian? Come on, you can do better than that. Supported by "anonymous wealthy donors" indeed.

Are you aware that about the time this group sprang up, Britain ended domestic coal subsidies and transferred the funding to wind power?