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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:02 PM
Original message
Warming will 'wipe out billions'
http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Warming-will-39wipe-out-billions39.5867379.jp

Warming will 'wipe out billions'

Published Date: 29 November 2009
By Jenny Fyall

MOST of the world's population will be wiped out if political leaders fail to agree a method of stopping current rates of global warming, one of the UK's most senior climate scientists has warned.

Professor Kevin Anderson, director of the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change, believes only around 10 per cent of the planet's population – around half a billion people – will survive if global temperatures rise by 4C.

Anderson's warning comes just eight days before global leaders meet in Copenhagen for the most crucial talks on climate change reversal since the Rio summit in 1992. Current Met Office projections reveal that the lack of action in the intervening 17 years – in which emissions of climate changing gases such as carbon dioxide have soared – has set the world on a path towards potential 4C rises as early as 2060, and 6C rises by the end of the century.

Anderson, who advises the government on climate change, said the consequences were "terrifying".

"For humanity it's a matter of life or death," he said. "We will not make all human beings extinct as a few people with the right sort of resources may put themselves in the right parts of the world and survive.

:boring:
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. You first.
Misanthropes always amuse me. They always want ill to befall other people while leaving themselves unscathed.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Oh, no, after you. I insist.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. I'm not the one who wants everybody else dead, you are.
so the onus is on you.

Misanthropes never realize we're all connected.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I still want you to go first.
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. People tend to ignore excess hyperbole
These kinds of articles dont serve to promote dealing with GW, they tend to make people dismiss the issue as the ravings of lunatics.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I'm reminded of a passage in Zodiac by Neal Stephenson
Our hero, climbs into the back of a taxicab, and tells the cabbie that he has just measured the pH of effluent dumping from a pipe, into the water at (something like) 3.5 (it's been a while) while the law requires it be no lower than 6.5. The cabbie asks what that means, and our hero explains that means its more than 10 times as acidic than the legal limit. The cabbie is properly outraged.

Our hero has learned from experience that if he says, “1,000 times as acidic,” people won't believe him.


Similarly, Grace Hopper once demonstrated a (computer language) compiler to a superior. He was quite impressed, until she demonstrated that it could work using words from multiple (human) languages (i.e. English, German…) at that point, he dismissed the whole demonstration. Clearly, it was impossible for an American computer to understand German.


My point is, this may not (in fact) be "excess hyperbole" it may simply be beyond your capacity to comprehend/believe.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. billions of dollars yeah, wasted on nonsense
No matter how far-fetched, nothing is too ridiculous for a Warmer to believe.
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Prometheuspan Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. cultist denialists from planet ape
Over and over again, no, solar increase is a real contributing factor which contributes to less than a billionth of the problem.

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/index.noshade.html
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/06/4_stages_denial.php
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Climate_change_skeptics
http://www.climatesciencewatch.org/index.php/csw/C25/
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2009/02/global-warming-denial.html
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/index/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/a-siegel/bipartisan-global-warming_b_134812.html
http://www.exxposeexxon.com/facts/ExxonSecretsAnalysis.pdf
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/19/global-warming-denial-has-its-benefits/
http://bravenewclimate.com/2008/09/08/cartoon-guide-to-global-warming-denial/
http://www.countercurrents.org/cc-henderson190806.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_denial
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=522784499045867811
http://theragblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/fight-global-warming-denial-george-will.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-grandia/a-troubling-trend-in-glob_b_158288.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T4UF_Rmlio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJAbATJCugs&feature=related

-------------


1. There are many different ways to derive energy.
2. Each of these methods has different relationships with the environment
3. Each of these methods has different costs and different benefits
4. Each of the these methods has different pros and cons.
5. A partial list of methods; oil, coal, shale, wood, gas, Biofuels (a. food crop, b. hemp crop c. algae) Solar, Thermal Solar, Wind, Tidal, Geothermal, Hydrogen, Hydrolic, Zero Point, Nuclear.

6. Oils relationships with the environment are
a. oil is ancient organic material that has undergone geological processes.
b. oil is removed from the ground via oil wells. Ie oil is mined from the Earth.
c. oil is burned in order to get heat and chemical reaction to create the energy.
d. burning it creates smoke. the smoke is toxic. it is multiply toxic to the ecosystem in multiple ways.
e. its causing global warming
f. it causes cancer
g. it causes acid rain
h. thus it hurts humans personally and the whole ecosystem as whole in these different ways.
7. oil costs a certain amount of money to obtain from the earth, depending on how deep it is and at what pressure it is under.
8. oil costs a certain amount of money to refine and process, as well as to transport.
9. The pros of oil are that ;
a. it is accessible with very primitive levels of technology
b. our current energy infrastructure is based on oil
c. oil costs less than biofuels or, at least, it used to.
d. oils over all cost benefit analysis remains do-able from the perspective of economics alone.
10. The cons against oil are
a. oil is actually very expensive as technology compared to other forms of energy in which initial
costs render yields not limited by physical quantities. Solar power stations, Wind, and Geothermal all provide energy options which
are simply cheaper over the long term.
b. oil pollutes the ecology as mentioned in its environmental analysis above.
c. that pollution will cause the extinction of life on earth as we know it should it continue.
d. we have already reached a tipping point where we have raised the global temperature so high that the new larger contributor to
greenhouse gasses is the ice that is being melted.
e. thus we need solutions to reverse global warming, or, our civilization is doomed.
11. Coal. The specifics change, but Coal, like oil, is an ancient organic substance exposed to geological processes, mut be burned, and thus
contributes to pollution and global warming.
12. oil Shale and coal Shale. Similar to oil and coal or extensions of them, shale is harder to mine and harder to extract oil from.
thus it costs more to process.
13. Biofuels. The difference between biofuels and oil or coal is that biofuels have not been exposed to geological processes, but rather,
similarly effecting technological processes.
a.Biofuels still have toxic smoke which pollutes and which contributes to global warming
b. Biofuels trade energy shortage and economic stress for food shortage and economic stress, thus creating c +d
c. Biofuels create food shortages, hunger, and contribute to global poverty
d. Biofuels make food more expensive.
14. Solar Power
a. solar power is derived from the suns light and chemical processes.
b. Solar panels are a permanent fixture which will continue to derive energy whenever the sun shines.
c. Solar panels have real but comparatively very tiny environmental costs.
d. Solar panel technology is up to date and evolved, no more research is actually required.
e. assorted pundits and candidates and politicians and so forth like to tell us that they favor more research for solar power.
Thats a secret unsecret way of saying that they don't support employing it as a real world solution, because solar power has worked
and has been feasible and economically viable for over 20 years.
f. Solar power is derived at a specific rate depending on the size of the panel, the efficiency of the absorption of the sunlight, and the amount of
sunlight available.
g. Solar power does better at high altitudes because theres less atmospheric interference.
h. Solar Power has very low yields per physical system cost. In order to run a car on Solar energy, you have to panel the entire car,
and in order to run your house on solar energy, you would have to panel your entire rooftop and buy energy saving appliances.
i. Solar power is most attractive and useful in a whole energy strategy because it is uniquely mobile. Geothermal wells or Wind
power or tidal power (for obvious reasons) won't run a car directly.
j. Solar power could in theory be used to solve the energy crisis almost by itself, by paneling over a very large surface area. This surface area
has been calculated variously, with low estimates ranging in 10 by 10 miles, and high estimates ranging upto 200 by 200 miles.
h. The problem with this is that the cost/ benefit analysis shows us that this would be very expensive when compared to a holistic energy strategy.
i. Solar power has very low yields when compared to geothermal power.
15. Thermal Solar. Thermal Solar is a variation of Solar power with a much cheaper cost, a much lower per square foot yield, and operating at a much simpler technology level.
a. about 100 miles by 100 miles (median estimate) of Thermal solar paneling could in theory meet our energy needs.
b. Thermal Solar can be done in such a way that it has lower materials costs and lower materials environmental impact.
c. Thermal solar involves using light to heat a liquid which creates energy by pushing a turbine when the fluid expands.
16. Wind Energy.
a. Wind energy is derived from creating large turbines called wind mills.
b. Wind mills are generally very large affairs.
c. The larger a windmill is, the more energy it creates relative to its overall material cost.
d. This means that the cost/ benefit analysis shows that larger windmills are cheaper.
e. Windmills create medium yields of energy when they are operating.
f. One good large windmill can probably meet the energy needs for perhaps a dozen homes.
g. The USA could in theory meet all of its energy needs via wind power, if we invested heavily also in enormous
distribution network infrastructure.
h. The USA is rich in wind energy compared to most places on the earth.
i. the problem with windmills is downtime when theres no wind.
j. This is significantly less a problem than with solar downtime due to no sun.
k. Wind and Solar together as a team can capitalize on the two extremes of climate, and should thus be employed
alternately depending on the location one wishes to provide energy for.
l. for instance, Solar power is better in New Mexico, Arizona, California, Texas, And sunny places.
J. And yet Wind power is better in places like New Jersey, Oregon,...places alongside the Canada Border.
k. The other problem with wind power is that it can create quite an eye sore to look at.
l. Wind power also can be very devastating to local bird populations.
m. Wind and Solar might be good tandem partners for cities like Denver, where theres lots of wind and lots of sun,
but not usually at the same time except for when it is.
This allows such a system to generate power in the sunny months with solar and in the winter months with wind.
17. Tidal Power
a. Tidal power is derived much like wind power is, from the movement of water instead of air.
b. Tidal power is slightly higher in potential yields because water is denser.
c. Tidal power would have to be done more or less on remote beaches , probably in large fenced
areas to protect the systems from animals and animals and humans from the systems.
d. Tidal power is obviously only viable on the coastlines of oceans or very large bodies of water such as lakes.
e. Tidal power could in theory meet all of our energy needs.
f. the cost/ benefit analysis for tidal power is a bit murky because its a mostly unexplored technology.
g. however, proof of concept units do exist and the technology is very simple.
h. tidal power has problems due to the corrosive nature of salt water and erosion.
i. Tidal power is unpopular because it ruins one beach per facility.
j. Most accessible tidal power exists in the energy of waves.
k. Cost/ benefit analysis shows that tidal power can be done out at sea, but it becomes increasingly more expensive the further out
you go to get the power back to land.
l. Tidal power is probably a good solution for arctic regions which don't get much sun, and whose wind conditions might on some occasions be too intense,
pulling windmills down.
m. Along with Solar power and Wind power, tidal power provides a third leg of medium level yield energy for low materials cost in situations where
geothermal power would be too expensive.
18. Geothermal Power
a. Geothermal power is energy derived from the heat of the earth.
b. that heat is on average several miles beneath the surface.
c. However, there is a lot of variance in how deep that heat is, and every state has regions where that heat is within a few hundred meters of the surface.
d. Geothermal power like wind power becomes cheaper per materials cost the larger the plant is.
e. Geothermal power has very high potential yields, and is in fact competitive with nuclear power in terms of sheer yield.
f. Geothermal power plants could in theory be built with higher energy yields than nuclear power plants. However, this is not advised or advisable, due to
potential tectonic stresses such high energy plants could create.
g. in the range around 100th or even 1 tenth the yield energy of a nuclear power station, geothermal power stations could be built which would have
virtually no impact on tectonic stresses.
h. Tectonic stress is an important variable. Frequently geothermal power is most accessible along fault lines. However, these should be ignored for
caldera like situations where the system is not contributing or in danger due to tectonic stresses.
i. There are many different ways of configuring a geothermal power station, and only one which this author supports. This is called double circuit closed system geothermal power.
j. double circuit simply means that the water drops on one circuit and the steam comes up on the other.
k. closed circuit means that no water is ever lost in the system, because even the heating element chamber is a well engineered container
L. Geothermal power can in theory meet all of our energy needs
M. of the resources available to us, it does this with the cheapest over all cost, the smallest possible ecological footprint, and the highest level of
permanency.
N. Geothermal power is not a good solution in situations where a small amount of power is needed for small communities or remote estates. It has a high material cost and start up cost to drill the well.
O. Geothermal power is theoretically available almost everywhere on the surface of the earth.
P. current oil wells now go as deep as 7, 8, 9 miles deep.
Q. Enough Geothermal power is accessible within 200 meters depth to meet all of our energy needs.
R. where larger power sources are wanted in places where that heat is deeper, it is still true that geothermal heat in most places is not
deeper than 4 miles.
S. In some rare situations where the crust is thick, geothermal power might be as deep as 20 miles.
Don't drill there, import the energy from 150 miles away somewhere.
19. Hydrogen power;
a. Hydrogen power is an up and coming technology which we can expect to see having good strong applications 20 or 30 years from now.
b. Hydrogen power is very promising, but currently, its still mostly a way to store energy, not create it.
c. The two main exceptions to this are using corrosive rare earth metals to get reactions, and using phased electrical energy to short out the binding force.
d. The problem with the former is that the rare earth metal is itself a form of fuel, and that creating it, and "burning" it with water both create toxic
substances as side effects.
e. the problem with the latter is containment of the field and what happens when organic matter is exposed to high energy bursts of electricity.
f. To the knowledge of this author, water based solutions which continue to use a combustion engine are frauds.
g. When Hydrogen becomes a used technology, it will probably be for very large equipment and uses, such as trains, planes, and large boats
20. Hydrolic or Hydro Electric power.
a. This energy is created by damming a river and using falling water to drive a turbine.
b. this is incredibly damaging to the ecology.
c. Yields are fairly high per materials cost, but, still, hydro electric materials costs are comparable to geothermal power, which doesn't destroy an entire
ecosystem per power plant.
d. Hydro electric power does not exist in anywhere near sufficient quantities to meet all of our energy needs.
e. This author finds hydro-electric power to be a bad idea all the way around, not even as useful as nuclear power.
21. Nuclear power
a. Nuclear power (currently) is derived from using rare earth metals in reactions which turn some fraction of those fuels directly into energy.
b. The radioactive fuels must be mined, and this results currently in the deaths (and serious health problems) of many Miners.
c. Nuclear power currently creates hyper toxic and radio active wastes, which cost money to tend and babysit, and which in an accident
of ignorance 10 thousand years from now could wipe out an entire continents worth of our descendants.
d. Nuclear power is in many senses still a futuristic technology with much promise and much potential.
e. Thus nuclear power should be studied and refined in the laboratory.
f. The focus of such studies should be in finding ways to use non radioactive fuels,
finding ways to create dissipating forms of radiation only, and finding ways to eliminate the problem of wastes.
g. Nuclear power is very high yield, but it has exorbitant costs, especially over the long term.
h. Compared to Geothermal power, nuclear power is extremely expensive, gets more expensive instead of less expensive over time, is extremely
dangerous, and perhaps most importantly, sooner or later we will run out of nuclear fuels, and still be forced to move on to geothermal power.
i. Nuclear power will be most useful for purposes of exploring our solar system and our galaxy.
j. There is no good reason to use nuclear power for domestic use considering the other much better alternatives.
22. Zero point energy
a. Zero point energy is derived from quantum phase state fluctuations where energy is created in contradiction to the "laws" of conservation of mass and
energy.
b. Zero point energy is a futuristic technology which may become realistic within the next 100 years.
c. Final stage proof of concept zero point energy research should be conducted at least as distant from the earth as the oort cloud, due to the unforseeable
nature of potential dangers.
d. In theory, zero point energy could create a self sustaining quantum phase reaction which could create nearly unlimited energy in spaces literally too small to be seen by the naked eye.
e. Early stage research into zero point energy is the entire field of quantum mechanics, specifically Singularities, branes, and quantum holographics.


23. Summary of findings.
a. Geothermal, Solar, Wind, Tidal, and Hydrogen Technologies together provide a clear and easy path towards green and sustainable energy.
b. Geothermal energy specifically is the solution which a realistic green energy infrastructure should be rooted in.
c. It is reasonable to project a total holistic solution in which 80 percent of our energy comes from geothermal, 10 percent from Solar, 5 percent from
Wind, and 5 percent from Tidal.
d. It is also worth mentioning that electric cars are a current and viable technology.
e. This is all of it simply a sumary of known and provable science fact. The only reason why most people don't know all of this is that oil companies
and rich evil jerks have spent billions of dollars to flood the public with propaganda and misinformation.
f. The other strategy of the evil empire jerks is to promote energy resources such as biofuels or nuclear power which create a situation of extreme expense so that they can continue to exploit our need for energy in order to make money. A Geothermally based energy infrastructure would provide
extremely cheap energy (especially over the long term) and this would be the death of the energy industry.



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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Ditto
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. Ah, our friendly neighborhood RW corporate shill again......
Wouldn't you be happier somewhere OTHER than DU? This is a liberal board. I've seen no evidence that you are the least bit liberal.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Well to be fair, it’s the "Democratic Underground"
There are conservative Democrats… (and liberal Republicans, although they’re getting rarer…)

I actually don’t mind “conservatives.” Some conservatives are actually quite liberal.

It’s the hyper-partisan, in-your-face, bumper-sticker-mentality, knee-jerk, ultra-right-wing, ditto-head types that give “conservatism” a bad name…
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RoccoR5955 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. And don't forget, you can't spell conservative without C-O-N! n/t
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
5. Finally....I can't wait.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. SO global warming is like General Motors?
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. that's one of the places it started
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Bobbieo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I know I dread another SW AZ summer. The heat I can handle okay, it is the rising humidity.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I was surprised at the wall of humidity that hits you when you drive into Phoenix from the west.
That was 20 years ago or so.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. It's hotter now


Did someone hear a train whistle?
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Maybe it was just cooler before. Look! No train!
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. I only wish I had such eyes!
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 06:30 PM by OKIsItJustMe
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/12/12-h/12-h.htm


'I see nobody on the road,' said Alice.

'I only wish I had such eyes,' the King remarked in a fretful tone. 'To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance, too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!'

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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. I see Susan Boyle's got an album out
410,000 copies in the first week. Wow.

:boring:
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Reese Witherspoon and Jake Gyllenhaal have split up!
I’m telling you, I just can’t keep up with the news any more!

:boring:
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. You guys are sadly behind the times
It's all Tiger Woods, all day.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. That’s what I'm saying!
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 06:10 PM by OKIsItJustMe
I just cannot keep up to save my life!

:boring:
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Prometheuspan Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
21. he ia right
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
26. Good
Human population/overpopulation is destroying the planet for all other life forms. Look at the number of species extinctions every year. If we're too stupid to change our behavior, we also deserve the "Darwin award". Hyperbole? Yes. Big picture truth? Yes again.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
28. No Vacancy.
Some day, they will hang that under the sign that says 'Welcome to Maine.'
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
29. other news:1000s of Malthusians, Doomers in emergency rooms with right hand repetive stress disorder
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