Just spent a year researching and getting bids on a new furnace and air conditioner. Ask me anything

[NNN0LHI]

My current furnace is 16 years old and already has been recalled for a bad heat exchanger. They give you the heat exchanger for free but the labor(which I would have to pay) to install one is about a thousand dollars. I didn't want to put that kind of money into a 16 a year old furnace so I began researching and getting estimates from various companies about a year ago. Going to have my air conditioning condensing unit replaced at the same time as it is also 16 years old and has been blowing a motor capacitor about every year now for several years which is no big deal. I keep a capacitor on hand and it takes about 15 minutes to change it. But I suspect something else is wearing out causing that so I am going to replace both pieces this September if it lasts that long. Sooner if needed.

I checked into the top of the line to the other end of the spectrum. From super high efficiency to average efficiency.

I asked everyone who came to write an estimate who was pushing the high end(expensive) ultra high efficiency equipment to show me on paper the return in gas and electricity savings to make up for paying almost double for the efficient system over the average efficiency stuff. None of them could. None of them even tried.

I would like to be as green as possible but I can't afford the most efficient equipment out there. Especially knowing the return in fuel savings isn't going to be there over the life of the equipment.

Any questions? I got answers.

Don

[Schema Thing]

1. Tell us about tax breaks and credits, Don

where do those come in on the efficiency curve?

[NNN0LHI]

8. $1500 dollar tax credit which means if you don't owe $1500 in taxes you don't get any credit

Thats where I am.

Don

[itsrobert]

2. 16 years old doesn't seem old for heating/ac system

But maybe it is? I'm not an expert.

[imdjh]

5. The furnace I replaced with heat pump was 40 years old, but it was an oil furnace.

It had no AC unit. They would have you believe that a reasonable life for mid priced heat pump system is 10 years, and the life expectancy has probably gone down in the last decade due to poor quality, but there are 20 and 30 year old units still functioning. Which is pretty amazing actually.

BTW, I have a 30 year old wall unit in the bedroom which still works.

[imdjh]

3. I live in fear of this. My system is 10 years old and a little noisy on the outside.

The last time I had a service guy out here he said that "new laws require" that you replace the whole system if you are going to replace the outside unit (heat pump) which basically means buying a whole new system and it probably would be time to replace the duct work as well. Of course, I can't afford any of this. So last year, I replaced the giant wall unit (standard air conditioner 220v 26000 btu) as a back up system. I might have to pay eventually for a new system, but I will not be held hostage by crisis (August break down).

I can live without heat, but no AC would really suck.

[Fledermaus]

14. I don't think that's correct. There is no federal law requiring you to upgrade an old unit.

Stronger Manufacturers’ Energy Efficiency Standards for Residential Air Conditioners Go Into Effect Today

WASHINGTON, DC -- To increase the energy efficiency of residential air conditioners, the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) has issued new manufacturing standards that go into effect today, January 23, 2006, for products manufactured in, or imported into, the United States.

“Homeowners who choose to buy more energy-efficient air conditioning systems after today will realize significant savings in their energy bills and greatly reduce their energy use,” said Secretary of Energy Samuel W. Bodman. “These new energy efficiency standards are the first of several standards to be issued this year by the Department of Energy that will improve the energy efficiency of several common household appliances.”

The 13 SEER central air conditioner standard is predicted to save the nation 4.2 quads (quadrillion British Thermal Units) of energy over the next 25 years. This is equivalent to the energy consumed by nearly 26 million American households annually. The standard is expected to save consumers $1 billion over the same period.

Today’s standards pertain specifically to newly-manufactured air conditioning units. Homeowners with current central air conditioning units will not have to replace their systems as a result of this standard. The average lifespan of a central air conditioner is about 15 to 20 years, and replacement parts and services will still be available for home systems for many years to come.

Residential air conditioner systems (not window box air conditioners), manufactured after today must achieve a Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio (SEER) of 13 or higher. A SEER rating of 13 is 30 percent more efficient than the current 10 SEER standard. Equipment with a rating less than 13 SEER manufactured before today may still be sold and installed, and homeowners and builders can still buy 10 SEER residential air conditioners until the supply is exhausted.

http://www.energy.gov/news/3097.htm

However, it will get harder and harder to get parts and eventually you will not be able to get parts for your older AC.

[Booster]

4. I have a 1400 sqft house with all ducts in place, but Sears wanted

$10,000 to install a/c, which didn't even include a new furnace. I said no.

[imdjh]

6. Sears is a rip off. People buy through Sears for peace of mind.

[AtheistCrusader]

26. CRIMONY

Was it gold-plated or something?

[phantom power]

7. Where did figure the knee of the curve was on SEER vs price?

for us, it came out around SEER 15, but we were in the 5-ton market.

[NNN0LHI]

9. I was looking at 19 and 20 SEER equipment

I would have never got my money back in fuel savings.

And then parts get crazy. Replacement multi-stage DC blower motor was in the $2500 range. A new thermostat for such equipment was in the $500 dollar range. Too pricey for me.

Don

[phantom power]

12. It definitely gets hard to see the payback at the higher SEER ratings.

Although for smaller systems it's more economical. We purchased a "series 21" unit, but it's only a SEER 21 at 3 tons. At 5 tons, the true SEER rating is 16. By our estimate, the energy savings would about pay back the extra cost over the unit lifetime. So we figured OK, especially since the payback only gets better as electricity gets more expensive. We also purchased a full 10-year warranty. Cuz damned if I'm paying for any parts on a $13K appliance until I've had my fair chance to run it into the ground.

[Coyote_Bandit]

10. My own experience

I replaced a 15 year old unit. 85% efficiency furnace and a 13 SEER air conditioner if I remember correctly.

Replaced with a 95% efficiency furnace and an 18 SEER air conditioner.

I did in fact realize 30% lower electricity usage in the sumer months.

Natural gas savings were marginal at best.

My unit came with a ten year parts guaranty and labor is also free if I maintain my annual service contract (which does include filters, filter changes, repairs, etc). Parts and labor warranties are also transferrable. And I hope I have moved on before that ten year period passes.

Enjoy your new heat and air system. The best part of mine was no longer having to constantly worry about breakdowns and repairs.

[kristopher]

11. Actually sounds like you are missing answers, but here are three comments.

1) You are equating the fact that none of these contractors performed an analysis to the fact that an analysis, if performed, would not deliver payback numbers that justify the added expense of the highest efficiency systems. That seems a false conclusion to me, even if the contractors made verbal statements of some sort that gave the impression the payback wasn't "worth it". Determining whether it is "worth it" or not is the objective of YOUR exercise. It is not the objective of the contractors. They are attempting to gain your business and it is very possible that the best way to sell you a system has nothing to do with putting in the effort to make a detailed analysis of payback. Additionally any payback calculation is going to depend on a set of assumptions that may or may not turnout to be true in the end. If they bid for your business on the basis of WRITTEN numbers that turn turn out be in error, would that open them up to some sort threat of civil legal action?
I'd suggest that if you actually want to find out the payback in order to make your personal determination of whether it is worth purchasing a given system, that you learn to do the calculation yourself. It isn't hard and I'd imagine that googling "how to calculate payback on HVAC systems" would lead you to directions.

2) What effect does/will the stimulus bill and the new, pending energy bill have on your bottom line? Perhaps you want to investigate the possibilities offered by the NEW Democratic (and energy efficiency friendly) administration.

3) You are capable of changing the capacitor, so perhaps you should investigate the level of difficulty and tools required to change out the heat exchanger. I'm not an HVAC tech but I've played with such systems a bit and in most cases it doesn't seem to be a hard job or one that requires expensive tools that are not available to be rented. Handling the refrigerant is probably the most complex part of the job.

[lindisfarne]

13. Have you looked into a whole house fan? Could that eliminate your need for A/C (it might unless you

live in very warm climate).

Are you as insulated as you should be? That expense may pay off more than the super-efficient option.

[AtheistCrusader]

27. As miserable as it is this time of year...

I'm going to add a whole house fan, attic fan, and stuff more insulation in the attic. It's going to suck, something you want to do in winter, but oh well. Needs to be done.

I wish i'd put white roofing on a couple years back. Forest green looked so nice BUT...

[Fledermaus]

15. Gosh, the standard SEER rating 16 years ago was 10 or maybe even lower. Now its 13.

If you replace your old AC with just a standard AC, you will be getting a SEER 13, and you will be saving 30% on your cooling bills.

[NNN0LHI]

18. That is it exactly

I am replacing a 10 SEER AC with a 13 SEER which is now the minimum.

I have concluded it doesn't pay to go any higher because of the expense of the equipment.

Don

[Fledermaus]

21. What about your heater. Are the new heaters more efficient?

I would think you pay more for heating than cooling. Is that true?

I live in San Antonio. I, would guess that I, pay twice as much for cooling than heating in a year.

[NNN0LHI]

22. I currently have a 90+ AFUE furnace

And thats what I will replace it with. My heating and cooling bills cost about the same where I am at.

My largest heating and cooling bills are less than $200 per month all year long.

Don

[excess_3]

16. where do you live? n/t

[NNN0LHI]

17. Northern Illinois

[excess_3]

19. did you consider one of those? ...natural gas engine electrical

power 'cogen' things,
that use NG to produce electricity, with the
waste heat being used to provide space heating.

these things make some sense in the winter, in cooler climes

[AZCat]

20. You might want to also think about your envelope.

Adding/replacing wall/roof insulation or windows (or just finding and fixing the thermally leaky spots) can be horrifically expensive, but well-worth it if you are planning on staying in your house for some time. Consider taking the extra money you would have spent on a super-high efficiency unit and putting it into envelope improvements.

[NNN0LHI]

23. 5 years ago I did all that. One of the best things I ever did.

More insulation and new windows and doors. Still paying for it all too.

Made a huge difference. My heating and cooling bills used to be in the $300 to $400 dollar range. Now they are never more than $200 per month all year long.

This place was terrible before I did that. Cold in the winter and hot and humid in the summer.

The biggest thing I did though was have my crawl space encapsulated and insulated.

It was hot and humid down there all summer before I did that a few months ago. If it was 90 degrees and 80% humidity outside it was the same down there and it would all come up into the house and make it miserable in the living areas. Now it stays about 10 degrees cooler down there than upstairs in the house with low humidity. That changed everything.

Don

[AZCat]

24. Excellent!

I am a huge fan of passive energy efficiency measures. There's at least one project out there (Joseph Lstiburek's is one) that has constructed a house with ultra-high resistance insulation. The location was somewhere in western Canada, and the house only required a small amount of heating during the winter. I'd like to see some of that same philosophy applied here in the southwest.

[NNN0LHI]

25. Just talked to the person who is installing my equipment this September

Over the weekend I went out and purchased an inside/outside thermometer/humidity gauge and put the outdoor transmitter in the crawl space. I discovered the temperature is a steady 10 degrees cooler down there than up in the living area with about the same humidity level.

The furnace guy suggested a return and a supply in the crawl space to take advantage of the cooler air I have just sitting down there now. He said he would put vents that I can close for the winter when I would not want to be adding the cooler air into the living environment. Good idea I thought.

He is going to relocate the furnace down into the crawl space from the laundry room that will really help me out a lot too. I am really cramped in this laundry room with a washer/dryer, water softener, water heater and a furnace all jammed in there. The water heater is located behind the furnace in the corner so I have to move the water softener and washer and dryer whenever that needs work.

Don

[AZCat]

28. Interestingly enough...

we occasionally do something similar. We will fill a trench with large rocks and use it as a air-to-earth heat exchanger - not that different from what the furnace guy is suggesting for your crawl space. You wouldn't want to fill the space with rocks, though.

I might not close the vents in winter. Heating the space under your floor will make your floor more comfortable - no more cold feet! It depends on whether your crawl space is underground or aboveground - you don't want the heat loss if it's aboveground but if your crawl space is underground the heat loss shouldn't be significant.

If he moves the furnace down into the crawl space, make sure your filters are located somewhere else (like at a common return somewhere in the house). It would suck if you had to crawl down there every time you needed to change your filters.