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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:09 PM
Original message
Tesla rolls out new sedan (CNN)
LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- While automakers lay off staff and shut down plants in response to the economic downturn, one automaker announced Thursday that it will open a manufacturing plant in the United States, potentially creating hundreds of jobs in the area eventually chosen.

Tesla Motors, maker of a high-end electric sports car, says it will build an all-electric sedan in Southern California.

Thursday's announcement was made in Hawthorne, California, where Tesla unveiled the Model S sedan at a base price of $49,900, after a federal tax credit of $7,500.

That's less than half the price of its first model, the Roadster.

Started in 2003 and bankrolled by PayPal millionaire Elon Musk, Tesla has attracted investments from the Silicon Valley elite, among them Google founder Larry Page.
***
more: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/03/26/tesla.new.sedan/index.html
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corruptmewithpower Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. I want the car, but I don't have fifty thousand bucks handy at the
moment.

How about eliminating the legal barriers to driving golf carts and other light weight and efficient vehicles on our nations excellent road system.

Our antiquated federal vehicle safety regs need a revamp in response to modern day realities.

We don't all need to be driving 2000+ lb tank-like crashmobiles
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Duckhunter935 Donating Member (777 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. And some of you would be the first to sue (maybe not you)
After getting hit while driving a slow vehicle on the roads. All of the safety regs are there because people sued and poeple lobbied for them. Just think of people driving on underinflated tires and having a blowout and sueing the tire manufacturer and car companies. Now we have a new idiot light.
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corruptmewithpower Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I'm pro-freedom to sue.
And I'm pro-freedom to motivate myself down the road in or on whatever sort of vehicle I find practicable for the purpose.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. There are NO laws prohibiting the use of such a Vehicle, if it was built.
Edited on Sun Mar-29-09 03:20 AM by happyslug
Honda, Vespa and others sells 50cc Mopeds, these are "Low Speed" Vehicles that are legal on the streets. Bicycles are also legal "Low Speed" Vehicles. AS to Golf-carts and other devices like them, the problem is the same SAFETY regulations apply to ANY size motorized Vehicle for use on Public Highways. If some manufacturer would take the technology of a Golf Cart, give it the basic safety requirements for a four wheel car, it would be legal. The Vehicle would have to have a Windshield that does NOT brake on impact (Laminated Glass NOT Tempered Glass), it has to have adequate lights for operation at night, it has to have seat-belts (And Airbags or other active protection in a crash). The body MUST stay intake in in rollover (Through in Pickups and SUVs there is no such roll over requirement, this rule applies ONLY to cars). Let us NOT forget the side impact rules.

If it was decided that the Vehicle could be designed for three wheel use, Motorcycle not Automotive regulations kick in (i.e. no seat-belts, airbags, or windshields). If a pickup bed is installed instead of a back seat, pickup regulations kick.

There are makers of such vehicles in the US today, rare but they exist. The problem is that the demand for such vehicles is low given that people want their cars to be able to go on the interstate highway system (Even if they never travel on such roads, they want the perceived ability to do so).

Here is the Museum of such micro-cars, it has pictures of the Isetta and Messerschmidt of the 1950s in addition to a huge number of other micro-cars:
http://www.microcarmuseum.com/

Popular Mechanic piece on Micro-cars being the wave of the Future:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4255883.html

Some other articles on Micro-cars:
http://www.petersen.org/default.cfm?docid=1057
http://minutia-microcarsminicars.blogspot.com/2009/02/thats-smallest-french-microcar-ive-ever.html

Micro-cars for sale TODAY from around the world:
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/incredible-electric-microcars/4215

Here are a list of "Micro-cars" available in the US Today, these are NOT true Micro-cars, but sub-compacts (as those terms are used in the US):
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/listarticle.aspx?cp-documentid=861622

Notice all of these cars have modern bumpers, lights, seat-belts, windshields in addition to side glass parts (Not actually required by Regulation but just try selling a car without any glass in the doors and rear window, all the regulation says is you MUST be able to see to the side and rear. Such sight vision is provided by glass in most cars, but is still satisfied by nothing, i.e. open space.

BMW was reported in 2008 at bringing back the Isetta, but this time in an electric set up:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/08/electric-isetta-microcars-currently-in-the-works/

Talk of Toyota bring in a micro-Car later this year:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/03/scion-toyota-iq-urban-micro-car-fuel-efficient-high-mpg.php?daylife=1&dcitc=daylife-article

Honda Zest, a Japanese "Kei" car NOT sold in the US:
http://world.honda.com/news/2006/4060223ZEST/

I has a POWERFUL 660 cc three cylinder engine (yes Motorcycles have bigger engines):
http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2008/12/2009-honda-zest-minor-facelift-with-new.html
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corruptmewithpower Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. A thousand thank you's for your excellent and very informative reply
I will visit all your links.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Those were the result of a quick internet search
Edited on Sun Mar-29-09 11:43 PM by happyslug
But I had done the search before so knew what to look for. Some thing to watch for:

1. Micro-Cars is the American term for these small cars, In Europe they are know as "City Cars" and in Japan "Kei" cars (Kei=Light as in Light weight cars). Please note the cite from Wikipedia below calls Micro-Cars and City Cars two different classes, that may be true to a degree but it is also NOT true to a degree. One of the problems is a car can grow over its production life and move from one classification to the next, and back again. These classifications must be treated as guidelines NOT deadlines.

2. American and Europeans tend to use different definition of various cars, for details see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_classification

3. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) who test cars for mileage in the US, uses INTERIOR size in its classification system, which means a car can be full size in the above categories but mid-size under the EPA program (This was more a problem in the 1970s as both GM and Ford had to downsize their cars, in the case of GM you had several years where the Full Size Car, but interior volume, was shorter in length then mid-size cars, then Mid-size cars were smaller in length then Compact cars, as these classifications were defined by the EPA. The only legal Fuel Economy rating permitted to be used by Car makers and dealers are those issued by the EPA. The actual fuel economy numbers:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
If you want to print out the whole list see:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/feg2000.htm

4. The Smallest car sold in the US, Right now to my Knowledge, is the SMART:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Fortwo
http://www.smartusa.com/

5. Ford is planning to bring in its Ka in 2010. The KA is a Micro-car/City Car (The importation is according to some sources but none confirmed).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Ka
The 2008 Ka is based on the Fiat Panda:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Panda

Ford's smallest car being sold today in the USA is the Focus, a Compact car:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_(North_America)

Ford has the Fiesta, which it use to make and/or import in the USA but has done neither since 1981. The Fiesta is a sub-compact car. Ford has plans to bring the Fiesta back as a Sub-Compact in 2010:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Fiesta
Please note that Wikipedia entry concentrate on European and English sales of the Fiesta and uses British terminology NOT American Terminology. So when you read it remember the terms being used are British NOT American so it is called a "Supermini" not a "Sub-Compact" (The British and American names for such a size of car respectfully).
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. Geez, way hotter than I thought it would be....
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Elon Musk gets it
He knows that first and foremost you have to make a car that's sexy as hell. The electric car industry has been waiting 30 years for someone like him who understands marketing, not just engineering.
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Exactly.
Most of the electric car concepts I'v seen are small jelly bean shaped contraptions or some other odd looking car that I wouldn't even spend my money on, even if I was rich. Many here dont get it, but a car has to look good and appealing to sell. If a certain car doesn't suit my taste or style, I wont buy it!
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. The problem is what is "TOP QUALITY"
The classic example of "Quality" is one given by W. Edwards Deming in his book "Out of the Crisis". Deming gave the example given to him from the days of AT&T "Leasing" phones (Before the breakup of AT&T in the 1970s). In those days you could trade in your phone for a new one and AT&T would not only replace the phone, they would install it (This was a big issue till the 1960s when the modern Phone Jack was introduced in the US by AT&T). An installer told him of the number of times he had to go to a house and replace the phone just because it had an almost imperceivable mark. That was those people's definition of "Quality" a perfect phone upon viewing it. The Installer then told Deming of the times he went to a home on another problem and the headset was in two pieces. When he told the people who had such phones they could get a new one for free, they all said why, it worked. What they heard on the phone was they definition of "Quality".

The point Deming was making with that statement is "Quality" must be defined BEFORE you can even try to meet it. One marketing teacher gave an example of "Quality". He was on vacation with his family and looking for a place to eat. He pointed out one place, someone else in his family would object. Other members would mention a place, but someone in the group kept rejecting them. Finally they all came to McDonald's. While no one really wanted to go they, no one objected either. That is where they went. Why no objections? McDonald food is a KNOWN quality. You may prefer someplace else, but it is acceptable if that alternative is NOT available (or in the case of his trip, the other options had all been rejected by someone). Yes, it is hard to think that McDonald's has HIGH Quality, but it does. Not that its food is the best, but where ever you go you will get the same meal. McDonald's is a Known Quality and thus high Quality.

I bring these two stories up for they demonstrate the problem with quality in ANY OTHER MARKETING SUBJECT. Some of the modern Electric Cars have to adopt some strange shapes to maximize the power of the electric engines. The batteries MUST be low, do to their weight. The Car has to be aerodynamic, so less electrical power is used. The car must be maneuverable. The car MUST meet modern crash tests.

The aerodynamics are the biggest factor. in the 1970s AMC came out with its Pacer. It was the most aerodynamic four passenger car of its generation. Low to the ground, shaped like a "Banana". There is a Rumor that Ford actually designed the car (Or it was stolen from Ford with some Ford input aka "Go to drawer five and take those plans" followed shortly afterward by "You forget the rest, we mailing it to you"). Ford was committed to the Banana shape but believe it was to radical for the 1970s and 1980s. In 1989 Ford would use the Banana shape in its Ford Taurus and Mercury Sables. The Taurus and Stable were NOT as radical banana shape as the Pacer had been, but then Ford had to satisfy a larger market while AMC always had to look like it was cutting edge (Do to the extreme long time between model changes for AMC). What was the best shape for a four Passenger car from an aerodynamic view? a Banana, but that shape was radical compared to the Boxes of the 1970s and the aerodynamic sloped cars like the Cameo, Fire bird, and Mustangs (And lets NOT forget the AMC Javelin, probably the best of the lot but rare I only remember ever seeing one). Now race cars tend to be even more aerodynamic, to maximize speed, but that is achieved by adding length both front and rear to achieve that increased aerodynamics. This cost weight (To hold up the extra panels) AND costs (The panels have to be attached or made out of high strength metal, which cost a lot of money). These three times, length, Weight and price were NOT worth it at the speed most family cars operate at (Less then 70 mph) thus the Banana shape won out when it came to the Pacer, the Taurus/Sable and the Electric Cars.

Javelin:
http://www.javelinamx.com/javhome/articles/ca87-jav.htm

On the Pacer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMC_Pacer

The Pacer has a reputation as one of the worse cars ever designed, but that is more do to that fact it had to resigned for a different engine then it had been originally designed for, like the British Mini (Another car on many "worse cars" list), it introduced elements that the big three did NOT dare introduce at the same time, but would do so within ten years (Including its Banana shape and no rain gutters above the doors).

Pacer as the 31st out of the worse 50 cars of all time:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1658545_1658533_1658042,00.html

Anyway, even today, the Banana shape is considered the "Ideal" shape from an aerodynamic point of view, but most people hate it. Thus the conflict in "Quality" I mentioned above comes into pay. People actually prefer a more boxy look, even at the cost of Aerodynamic efficiency (Thus the sharper edges on the Taurus and Sable compared to the Pacer, more market driven then anything else). These compromises with Aerodynamics for marketing is more then justified when the extra cost of being less aerodynamic can be made up with a gasoline engine (as in the case of the Taurus and Sable).

In electric cars that extra power is often NOT available so the tendency is to go to the Banana even at the cost of making the car look "strange" (and the story that Ford looked at the Pacer as a test car for its plans). Thus you have the makers of Electric Cars, looking at cars to use the least amount of Electrical power to perform like a gasoline car (Their definition of Quality) while most purchaser are use to what they have been driving, more boxy shapes that overcome air Resistance with more power from Gasoline engines (Which is buyer's definition of Quality, it has to look good). Sooner or later this difference in the definition of "Quality" will have to be resolved, mostly by having people accept the Banana as the ideal shape, but that will require the price of gasoline to go much higher then it did last summer let alone today.
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