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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 01:28 PM
Original message
For Wind Turbine Manufacturers, the Layoffs Begin
http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/16/for-wind-turbine-manufacturers-the-layoffs-begin/
January 16, 2009, 10:07 am

For Wind Turbine Manufacturers, the Layoffs Begin

By Kate Galbraith

President-elect Barack Obama will spend part of today touring a factory near Cleveland that makes parts for wind turbines — an example of the “green jobs” that he hopes to promote in the stimulus package.

But some of those jobs in the wind industry are becoming casualties of the economic slump. North Dakota-based D.M.I. Industries, which manufactures turbine towers, is laying off 20 percent of its workers across three plants — in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Stevensville, Ontario and West Fargo, North Dakota.

The news comes barely six months after the company announced expansion plans that would make it the “largest wind tower manufacturer in North America.”

“Quite frankly, I was shocked,” the major of West Fargo, Rich Mattern, told The Associated Press earlier this month. “I thought they were bulletproof. I never guessed that they would be in trouble.”

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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. are we really going to end up back in torch lit caves? is there any
bottom to the economic abyss we've fallen into?
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HillbillyBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. This is sad and very disappointing
We should also have some of the alternator makers making the generator portion of small wind turbines for individual homesteads.
After all they are basically virtually the same thing.
We plan to be as close to fossil fuel free at our little start up farm in 10 years..less if we can find affordable solar wind system parts. That is the real hold up for us.
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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. i don't understand why no-one can seem to make these ideas work.
there should be more than enough demand at this point, so why is the supply part so hard to get rolling? how can turbine manufacturing not be a booming business? why can't someone manufacture an affordable home size turbine system?
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. How do companies like Rent-a-Center stay in business?
Many people can't afford the upfront costs of a home-sized wind turbine, and at that scale (last I knew) grid power was cheaper.
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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. right, but if enough home size systems could be mass produced,
it seems to me that a point would be breeched past which the cost lowers enough to make them affordable, thereby generating more production... Isn't that the basic way our economy is supposed to work? it seems to me that a masive investment in manufacturing would pay for itself quickly. if I had a kajillion dollars, I would take a shot.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Well, sorta, yeah
Quite often, a new technology is relatively expensive, but with time, the price comes down. However, that doesn't mean that all technologies eventually become affordable to all people.
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HillbillyBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. the prices are artificially high, a small wind turbines guts
are the same as an auto alternator, in fact that is what they are. it seems that someone corporately wise is blocking the materials needed to manufacture the body part. I really don't know.
We contacted 3 companies that were start up manufacturers of vertical wind turbines. We want vertical because we do not want to cut down the woods on our land. They were all bought out by different oil cos and shut down. Two others gave me quotes for 700 to 1000 for 1 kw verticals, when I went to order the prices had gone to 3000+$, which is totally out of our range.
You also need balance of system, switch gear, inverter from 12, 24,49 volts to 120, and charge controller, wire, batteries and tower etc really runs up the cost, then getting permits and clearance from electric company to grid tie is a pain in the ass.
I contacted local power company and the fella was pretty dismissive. well we have to do a survey to see if it will pay you.
We sell power at 11c a kw, but their power is mostly coal generated. We are downwind and in the summer there are times when I can't go outside as it triggers asthma, It is not as bad here by far as when we lived upwind in Greensboro NC.
We are thinking to put our well pump on a small system. we have the basis for a solar water heating system, but again the support parts are much more than the solar panel part itself, and then we need enough pv to power pumps and charge batteries for night time when we need water.
We are considering putting all these things on smaller individual set ups, we would need less wire, and if there was a prblem with a subsystem it would not knock out the whole house.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. price/productivity
There are two components to determining the value of an energy system; the price and the amount of energy produced. Recently, a family member sent me an email asking about this system: http://www.aerotecture.com/
This is my response:

I think it is important to keep your eye on the ball, however, so bear with me for a quick, first cut analysis of the system. "The ball" in this case is the quickest, most efficient transition to renewables that we can achieve. If current climate change projections are even close to accurate, time and financial resources need be maximized.

This type of system (small collection area at rooftop height) runs up against physics as, generally speaking, there simply isn't the wind that you need at that altitude. The energy contained in wind is exponentially related to the speed of the wind, a doubling of speed produces an 8X increase in power. Related to that is the drag that the wind experiences as it interfaces with the surface. That drag decreases rapidly with altitude. So while a turbine with a swept area larger than a football field and a hub height of 260 ft will produce (in a good area for wind) electricity at a lifetime average of $0.04 - $0.06 a kWh, this rooftop unit will probably only deliver electricity at about $0.50/kWh.
The big variable is summed up in the system's "capacity factor" which is a percentage of the maximum annual production capacity of the generator (all types) . At 1.5KW (max rating) x 8760 (number of hours in year) = 13,140 kilowattHOURS potentially per year. A good wind regime (NM desert for example) will produce between 30-40% of that for a 30-40% capacity factor.
A rooftop system will very rarely produce 20%, usually it is less than 10%. So say it is 15%:
13140 x 0.15 = 1,971 kilowatthours per year.
With a 20 year life span, that would equal 39,420 kWh lifetime production.
$21,000 /39,420 = $0.53 /kWh.
The national average price is about $0.09 /kWh.
Large scale wind through a public utility is usually about $0.11/kWh.


This article also gives a good summary of small wind economics:
http://www.cattlenetwork.com/Content.asp?ContentID=280257

New Energy Economics: Wind - What Is Its Value?

If you have been a regular reader of this column, you are going to notice a switch. For the past six months, I have described the various economic facets of biofuel energy. Given the rapid increase in wind development across the region, I am going to shift gears for the next several months and do the same for wind energy.

Similar to biofuels, I am going to start with the very basics and proceed to discuss several economic policies that are impacting the development of the wind industry across the region. Just as with biofuels, I invite any questions and/or comments on issues that I raise.

Many people have an initial impression that the economics of wind energy is easy to evaluate. After all, all one needs to do is determine how much wind there is, put up a turbine and then sell the power back to the utility company.

Unfortunately, it is far more complicated. Technical considerations, consumer demand, utility pricing and public policy all have a large impact on wind economics. In the next couple of articles, I am going to focus on each of these topics, but let's start with wind.

Even at low wind speeds, do turbines make economical power? Is more wind always better? No is the answer to both questions. The graph illustrates the technical efficiency of a 1.65-megawatt wind turbine.

Two important points to keep in mind; First, at wind speeds below 10 mph, a wind turbine produces very little energy. We will see in future articles that even wind speeds under 15 mph are not economically viable because enough energy isn't produced to cover the high ownership (fixed) costs of erecting a wind tower.

Second, wind towers are not engineered with enough strength to capture high wind speeds. When wind speeds exceed design thresholds, internal brakes limit turbine rotation. Turbines could be designed to generate energy at higher wind speeds, but strengthening the tower and other turbine components is not economical with our present technology.

The fundamental formula for wind energy is power =1/2 pAV3.

Where p is the air density (just like any other density -- how much a given volume of wind weighs), A is the swept area of the blades (how much surface area of the turbine actually catchs wind) and V is the velocity of wind usually measured in mph. Notice that the velocity of wind is raised to the power of 3.

This is the most important factor. Most of us are aware of how quickly something rises geometrically if it is squared or raised to the power of two. The power of wind rises more quickly because it is raised by a factor of three.

Thus, wind speed is by far the most important consideration when siting a new wind turbine. In my next article, I am going to illustrate how variable wind speeds can be, even in a small geographical region.

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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. Recession Isn't Hurting Some Alt Energy Movements - Hydropower, solar power and ocean-bed energy …
http://www.kiplinger.com/businessresource/forecast/archive/recession_not_hurting_alt_energy_movements_090115.html

Recession Isn't Hurting Some Alt Energy Movements

Hydropower, solar power and ocean-bed energy are gaining momentum.

By Jim Ostroff

January 15, 2009

There's plenty of action on the alternative energy front despite the considerable downdraft in most energy-related industries created by the severity of the recession. Here's a sampling of what will stir the pot for hydropower, solar power and ocean power over the next few years:

Hydroelectric power is getting renewed life. Electricity produced by dams on rivers and streams will climb 50% over the next decade, to around 10% of all power and up to 20% by mid-century. It can cost less to replace old or shuttered hydro systems than to build wind turbines, for example. Plus new technologies ease concerns about the potential impact of dams on fish and wildlife.



Ocean-bed generators show promise as well. They're likely to gear up over the next decade to feed power to cities within a few hundred miles of U.S. coasts. Long cylinders anchored to seafloors harness the energy from eddying water.



Solar power isn't standing idly by, letting hydro eat its lunch. Southern California Edison and Duke Energy soon will lease rooftops from homeowners and businesses in California to install solar cell panels at no cost and channel electricity to the grid. The utilities feed the electricity directly onto the grid. For businesses, this is a golden opportunity to generate revenues from large assets that otherwise are depreciating in value: buildings.

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
9. This is a reflection of the availability of financing, not the recession.
These large projects require capital and that is still flowing like molasses in January.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Are you saying the credit freeze is not related to the recession?
Really?
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I can never remember which came first.
Was it the Credit Crisis which caused the Recession? or the Recession which caused the Credit Crisis?

Maybe they're hopelessly intertwined.

IRONY
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Yeah, that was kind of my point.
It seems a bit reductionist to paint the two aspects of the Global Financial Clusterfuck as independent.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Yup! (I agree with you)
Kind of like differentiating between "Global Warming" and "Climate Change."
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Really?
Then try to get a loan to build a permitted project and see if laying off workers helps.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Sorry, my head is spinning too fast… I can't follow your logic…
I found these This American Life episodes absolutely chilling. Based on these, it was clear where the economy was headed, when and why. If you think the credit crisis and the recession aren't intimately intertwined, give a listen:
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. It's your logic, not mine.
The dealing with the recession is primarily an exercise in putting people back to work, and the insinuation of the two articles you posted was that wind is different than the other alternative energy sectors. It isn't. It is set to be one of the industries that can be expanded through assistance in the financial system, it doesn't require a fix in the area of demand growth. In contrast, right now no matter how much capital assistance provided the automakers, people aren't buying cars.

Your insistence that there is no distinction is absurd.

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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. … primarily an exercise in putting people back to work …
In order to properly address a problem like "Global Warming" it's important to understand its cause. (If you don't think it's anthropogenic, your solution isn't likely to work.)

The recession wasn't caused by unemployment.

That doesn't mean I don't want a "stimulus package." Hell, I've advocated building a renewable power infrastructure as a public works program for years. If you want to call it a "stimulus package" to address "the recession" I'm all for it.

However, putting people to work will not address the fundamental reasons for the recession. (I was serious about listening to those programs by the way.)
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thank you for the links
But i'm on dialup and media is just too time consuming.

You keep saying that I don't think the recession and the credit crisis are intertwined. This is what I had to say:
Most discussions have segregated the two events (note the financial bailout package as opposed to the financial stimulus package). Recession is related to consumer demand and the credit slowdown is related to liquidity issues and bad financial oversight of the financial institutions.

Are they interconnected? Of course they are.

In spite of being interconnected, are they still distinct challenges for businesses? Of course they are.


I made it clear that my remarks were directed to the challenges facing the business of wind as referred to in the earlier posts and the implication that wind was being affected by the recession. If you prefer to lump them into one term, that is your decision. I think that obscures the issues involved myself, and prefer to draw a distinction that effectively shows that the renewable energy sector is, indeed, a "recession proof" industry in the current economic downturn.

Your carping on a relationship I've not denied is pointless.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Recession is related to consumer demand
Recession is related to consumer demand and the credit slowdown is related to liquidity issues and bad financial oversight of the financial institutions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession

Recession

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In economics, the term recession generally describes the reduction of a country's gross domestic product (GDP) for at least two quarters. The usual dictionary definition is "a period of reduced economic activity", a business cycle contraction.

The United States-based National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) defines economic recession as: "a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP growth, real personal income, employment (non-farm payrolls), industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales."



The core problem is that the world supply of money took a big hit. Why? Because people were out of work? No.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. OMG you can use a dictionary
(AGAIN) What I wrote: "...a distinction that effectively shows that the renewable energy sector is, indeed, a "recession proof" industry in the current economic downturn."

I put the words recession proof in quotes because I'm using them in a distinct way - as they are generally being used in (and I quote above) the *current* economic downturn. I'm aware of what you write and it has absolutely nothing to do with the issue I'm raising. It is, as the word absurd specifies, without meaning.



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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. There are transcripts at the links I provided
You might like to take the time to download them.

You might not.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Can't you find something meaningul
Instead of attempting to pick at nits? Most discussions have segregated the two events (note the financial bailout package as opposed to the financial stimulus package). Recession is related to consumer demand and the credit slowdown is related to liquidity issues and bad financial oversight of the financial institutions.

Are they interconnected? Of course they are.

In spite of being interconnected, are they still distinct challenges for businesses? Of course they are.

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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Most discussions have segregated the two events … Are they interconnected? Of course they are.
Exactly the problem that we see with too many discussions.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/30/eveningnews/main4490618.shtml


Couric: What's your position on global warming? Do you believe it's man-made or not?

Palin: Well, we're the only Arctic state, of course, Alaska. So we feel the impacts more than any other state, up there with the changes in climates. And certainly, it is apparent. We have erosion issues. And we have melting sea ice, of course. So, what I've done up there is form a sub-cabinet to focus solely on climate change. Understanding that it is real. And …

Couric: Is it man-made, though in your view?

Palin: You know there are - there are man's activities that can be contributed to the issues that we're dealing with now, these impacts. I'm not going to solely blame all of man's activities on changes in climate. Because the world's weather patterns are cyclical. And over history we have seen change there. But kind of doesn't matter at this point, as we debate what caused it. The point is: it's real; we need to do something about it.

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