Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

DOE loan applications are in, nuclear construction costs $6,528/KW

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 06:43 AM
Original message
DOE loan applications are in, nuclear construction costs $6,528/KW
Edited on Wed Oct-08-08 06:54 AM by bananas
$188 billion / 28,800 megawatts = $6,528/KW

(edit to add: how to convert this to $/kWh is explained in the Keystone report )


http://www.energy.gov/news/6620.htm

October 2, 2008

DOE Announces Loan Guarantee Applications for Nuclear Power Plant Construction

WASHINGTON, DC – The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) today announced it has received 19 Part I applications from 17 electric power companies for federal loan guarantees to support the construction of 14 nuclear power plants in response to its June 30, 2008 solicitation. The applications reflect the intentions of those companies to build 21 new reactors, with some applications covering two reactors at the same site. All five reactor designs that have been certified, or are currently under review for possible certification, by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) are represented in the Part I applications. DOE also has received Part I applications from two companies for federal loan guarantees to support two different Front-End Nuclear Facility Projects.

<snip>

DOE and the U.S. nuclear industry have partnered to share the cost of programs to improve the design and licensing processes of the first new nuclear power plants to be constructed in the U.S. in over 20 years. Now the industry is putting the results of those programs to use and asking the Department to provide loan guarantees in the amount of $122 billion, which significantly exceeds the $18.5 billion in loan guarantees available under the June 30, 2008 Nuclear Power Facilities solicitation. The aggregate estimated construction cost of these 14 projects is $188 billion. If all projects are constructed, they would add 28,800 megawatts of clean, emissions-free, base load electric generating capacity. DOE also has been asked to provide loan guarantees in the amount of $4 billion for Front End Nuclear Facility Projects, which exceeds the $2 billion in loan guarantees made available for this type of project in the June 30, 2008 solicitation.

<snip>


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
grannie4peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. good post, thank you!!!!!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. Over how much time?
If you are comparing that to the fixed, one time cost, that's a false and misleading number.
over how many years do you have that number covering or are you talking about one instant?
I really hate it when greenies pull this shit out of their asses. You hurt REAL effort where
HONESTY get more done, than this kind of bullshit lying with numbers!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. You're absolutely right.
Those "lying, bullshit numbers" provided by the nuclear industry attempting to get loan guarantees are almost certainly lowball estimates that will probably triple before construction would be completed.

Lying bastards.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. No I'm serious, over what time?
is it going to cost customers $2345 per KWh?
do they have to have 2345 customers, charging them $1 per Kwh JUST to keep running?
That is a useless number without proper context, and explanation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Alright, taking you as serious...
Edited on Thu Oct-09-08 01:08 PM by kristopher
Let's start with a couple of simple questions:
Do you know anything about planning and building large (or any size) energy projects?

Do you know what "overnight costs" are?

Overnight costs are the estimates of costs that don't include the cost of financing the project during construction. It is one measure of the cost of building something that looks at the total as if it were completed "overnight". The numbers in the OP are probably a reflection of this overnight cost number for nuclear plants and, as it is an average of a large number of cost claims, it is probably a reasonably good representation of what that number looks like at this moment. Unfortunately, nuclear plants have both extremely high default rates and extremely high rates of cost overrun/inflation occurring during the construction phase.

Like any other facility to produce a commodity, the capital costs of construction are spread over the number of units of the commodity produced during a given time (10, 15 or 20 years for example). The "watt" number in "/watt" refers to the maximum rated production capacity of the power plant. This "installed watt" number is always different from the actual production amount because no plant produces continuously for 20 years. For example, modern wind turbines only produce as much as the wind blows, typically between 30-44% of their installed maximum production capability, nuclear plants in the US typically produce around 90% of their maximum production capability, and coal plants produce around 80% of their production capability. Forecasting the actual production amount is therefore very important in comparing the end price of electricity, as is correctly forecasting the price of fuels for the nonrenewable plants.

The four basic elements of the price are construction costs & financing, operating costs, maintenance costs, and fuels costs.

Decommissioning costs and the costs of waste disposal are also important considerations for some of the technologies.

A somewhat simple but effective means of comparing technologies is the amount of energy returned for the amount of energy invested. Because of growing energy demand, resource depletion and trends that more effectively incorporate external costs into the accounting, the Energy Return on Energy Invested (EROEI) for fossil fuels and nuclear are low and declining. Solar and wind are 2X-5X as "profitable" in energy units as nuclear or fossil fuels and climbing.

The $6K plus figure in the OP is almost certainly well below the final cost that each plant would actually post; and if we allocate to the survivors the costs of the 50% of the nuclear projects that can be expected to fail before producing a single watt, the (social) cost is certainly well above that quoted in the OP.

Nuclear is a very bad deal. Download the report at this link and see very specifically why: http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2008/nuclear_power_report.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-08 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Thank you
That is much clearer the 2-3k/kw refers to cost to build.
I'm familiar with that from solar panels.
What usually gets me is while that reflects the build costs, it doesn't really explain over how much time before it 'becomes solvent'.

Don't get me wrong, I am NO fan of nuclear power, I would much rather we used, geo, hydro - where feasible - wind, and solar panels on every house in the country.

I look at nuclear as a simple stop gap to get rid of ALL 'dirty' power sources like coal and gas.

However it does sound to me that for the amount of money and time it would take to SAFELY get a reactor on-line, you can get at least half that in renewable energy in less than half the time and making money in a few years as opposed to 5-10?

My argument in the beginning was, and is, that IF we on the left are to EFFECTIVELY COMBAT this stuff, we need HARD numbers to fight the righties with.

we need to PROVE that OUR way, aside from being overall better, will make MONEY SOONER, which is all those greedy assholes care about anyway.

it's all about how you frame the argument.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Here are the estimates from the 2007 Keystone report
Construction cost: $3,600-$4,000/kW
Average life span: 30-40 years
Electricity cost: 8-11 cents/kWh
I gave the link to the report in the OP.
These estimates are now considered low,
but I still see people quoting earlier estimates of $2,000/kW,
which is why I only mentioned construction costs in the OP.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. It's probably a "built to completion" number.
I.e. how much it would cost to get a plant of X size online and running, with operating costs and rate of return handled seperately.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oerdin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. I couldn't agree more.
When someone lies it makes everyone on the same side look bad. Either make your point using real facts or don't bother because the lying harms us more then it helps.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. With the extremely high default rate for nuclear, what do you expect might happen?
"Now the industry is putting the results of those programs to use and asking the Department to provide loan guarantees in the amount of $122 billion, which significantly exceeds the $18.5 billion in loan guarantees available under the June 30, 2008 Nuclear Power Facilities solicitation. The aggregate estimated construction cost of these 14 projects is $188 billion."

I doubt much will come of this unless McCain gets elected.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
abqmufc Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Plus health costs and shipping cost.....
Great numbers, thanks for sharing....

Also one should factor in the cost of transporting any nuclear waste to any longterm storage facility (Yucca Mountain) and also factor in the risk model's which calculate costs for spills during transport.

One should also look at health care costs that will be associated with exposoure to uranium dust for miners (presumably in the southwestern United States).

90% of all transport of nuclear materials will go through tribal lands (American Indian/Alaskan Native). Much of the uranium that will be mined is on tribal lands.

More info found in "If You Posion Us: Uranium and Native Americans" by Peter Eichstaedt

This is a major enironmental justice issue!

There is nothing safe, clean, or affordable to nuclear power when one looks at the complete cycle of nuclear power (mining to storage).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Pales in comparison to the costs for coal plant emission-caused cancer. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. But the alternative is renewable energy, not fossil fuels
As usual you can't resist trotting out your favorite red herring...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
13. Wow! That much cheaper than renewable toys subsidized by tax breaks for the rich?
Edited on Thu Oct-09-08 07:01 PM by NNadir
Who knew?

Solarbuzz apparently. www.solarbuzz.com
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
15. ENERGY "too cheap to meter" Yeah, RIGHT! Recommended. And this of course does not even

consider the cost to sequester nuclear waste for 10s of thousands of years.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 08th 2024, 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC