The World At 350 - A Last Chance For Civilization

[Hissyspit]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3271739&mesg_id=3271739

[tom_paine]

1. In other words: <1% chance for "civilization".

If that.

Going back to 350 ppm? Don't make me laugh.

:rofl:

[Dead_Parrot]

2. >1% or < 1%?

:shrug:

[tom_paine]

3. Wups. I've got mathematic dyslexia about this one thing.

This isn't the first time I have flipped my greater-than/less-than sign backawrds.

<1% Quite clearly it's <1%.

My bad.

Luckily, there was time enough to edit. Thanks.

[losthills]

4. The ads may rotate...

But this ad for "Clean Coal: America's Energy Future" was right under the thread linked to above.
The ad led to this site: http://www.americaspower.org/

DU takes money from them and Obama takes money from them. That's what kind of future we're looking at...

[losthills]

5. Here's an article from this site that DU is promoting:

http://www.npbj.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=19661475&BRD=2231&PAG=461&dept_id=449419&rfi=8

Coal advocates dog candidates' footsteps

By:Elizabeth Zygmunt 05/05/2008


ABEC is primarily concerned with bituminous coal — the fuel source for coal-fired power plants. There is no bituminous coal in northeastern Pennsylvania.

Americans for Balanced Energy Choices (ABEC) was in the area last month, driving its conspicuous sky-blue van to various locations where Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama appeared.
ABEC was not in town to endorse either candidate. Rather, the advocacy group wants to raise the energy-consciousness of voters - specifically in regard to the peril they fear coal-as-power-source now faces.

"This is a time of great uncertainty," said Cathy Coffey, ABEC's communications director. "The clean air standards the EPA proposes are more than sufficient, but (with the presidential campaign) everything may be revisited. We are on an educational campaign. Most Americans are unaware that 56 percent of their power comes from coal. People need to make the connection."

ABEC, Coffey says, was formed in 2000 and includes concerned business owners, elected officials, individuals and coal-supported industries like railroads and utilities. She says that the group is primarily concerned with bituminous coal - the fuel source for coal-fired power plants. There is no bituminous coal in northeastern Pennsylvania. (See map.)

ABEC's chief nemesis is the Sierra Club, which Coffey says has spent millions of dollars to "shut the coal industry down in favor of wind and solar energy."

[Dead_Parrot]

6. Awww. That's so cute.

So, coal companies pay Google to promote their website. Google gives some of the money to DU, quite a bit more of the money to fund solar research, and poor losthills - probably the only person to follow the link in the history of DU - gets all confused and complains about it (having spent a few minutes researching "clean coal").

If the irony escapes you, now would be the perfect time to donate a few dollars to DU yourself: Then you can switch the adverts off (although, that does mean there's a little bit less money for solar R&D. Your call).

[losthills]

11. You have a very twisted view of the world, Dude.

If you don't think it's wrong to promote "Clean Coal" on this board, then you're farther gone thanI thought...

[Dead_Parrot]

13. It's only promoted if people read it and fall for it

Otherwise, it's coal companies funding E/E and solar research. I don't have a particular problem with that, it leaves them with less to spend elsewhere.

[Dead_Parrot]

7. Though you were being a bit optimistic...

Hey ho. :(

[tom_paine]

8. I think

The human species is far more likely to survive than the collection of psychopath-lead kleptocracies that passes for Western Civilization built on unsustainable permanent, endless growth and cheap, limitless oil, not to mention the removal and vaporization of much of the carbon and methane locked beneath the earth's surface, which gave us the relatively stable climate that allowed our psychopaths to harness us like mules, get us to kill the mules harnessed by other psychopaths and every indigenous person we could lay our murderous paws on.

Not so long ago, I was convinced that humanity would not be doing the universe a service by going extinct, but after seven years of Bushler and the absolute proof that we intelligent monkeys learn NOTHING from history, it is clear that we WILL be doing the universe a service by exiting before the virus that is us spreads.

Mostlikely, we are going to do it, too, and likely within five millenia if not much sooner (I am factoring in the long, slow process by which the final few million humans slowly die off, that might take a long time). Or, to be more accurate, Earth is going to do it just as our immune systems rise to combat a particularly nasty flu virus that is giving us a fever as well as aches and pains in our "oceans".

So it goes.

[Dead_Parrot]

10. It's a tricky one

On one hand, we are remarkably adaptable and can live in anywhere from the Sahara to Qaanaaq without needing a particularly high level of technology. Sure, civilisation may collapse but it's hardly the first time and I doubt it will be the last: We'll bounce back eventually...

...but then there has never been a species quite like us before, so there really isn't anything to compare us too on an evolutionary time-scale. This combination of tool-making, communication and, err, "intelligence" might just be an evolutionary dead end. The Nautilina haven't bothered mucking around with penicillin, wheels, or electronic voting machines, and half a billion years down the line, they're still quite happy to eat, fuck and float around: A scant 2 or 3 million years after we fell out of the tree and we're in deep shit already because we insist on shitting in our own nest.

Sheesh. Amateurs...

[GliderGuider]

9. Remember back a few hundred years ago

When there were dozens of "civilizations" on the planet instead of just one? We're headed back that direction. One of the (few) good outcomes of the coming troubles is going to be an increase in social diversity within the human community as regions of the world become more disconnected.

On the other side of the equation, though, is the fact that this article talks about only one of the half dozen or so major crises that are all coming home to roost simultaneously. If just this one is enough to threaten "civilization" what are we to conclude about the effect of six or more striking within the same couple of decades?

McKibben's web site 350.org, as noble as it is, looks like even more forlorn and threadbare under the illuminating glare of the full situation. It's well past time for us to choose a different different path forward.

[pscot]

12. McKibben's effort seems hopelessly optimistic

and naive. I can almost hear Mickey Rooney saying breathlessly, "I know. Let's put on a show." We're far more likely to reach 450 ppm and beyond, barring a really dramatic, and totally uncharacteristic, reversal of our current behavior. There have been stirrings in the U.S. Congress lately, visible in fragmentary form on Cspan. I find these stirrings to be alarming, rather than reassuring. Ethanol is still riding high. The coal and oil lobbys have plenty of money and a vocal constituency who's paychecks are at risk. The number of legislators in thrall to these deadly industries is sufficient to block any real progress, at least near term. I wouldn't expect meaningful acion from Congress until the waters of the Tidal Basin are lapping at the Capitol steps.