so I'm shopping sub compact cars on the web

[NMDemDist2]

and they don't do that much better than my old 1991 6cyl Buick.

'91 Buick 25mpg city
Chevy Aveno 27mpg city
Scion xD 27mpg city
Toyota Yaris 29 city
Smart Car 33mpg city

now why the heck could they make a 6cyl car 17 years ago that was that efficient and these new tiny things don't do all that much better?

what's up with that?

:banghead:

and the old girl has lots of room



compared to this!!

http://images.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2006/112_news060628_01z+daimler_chrysler_smart_car+passenger_side_view.jpg

[Skinner]

1. I could be wrong, but...

...I think part of the problem is that the EPA changed the way it calculates miles per gallon. The way they used to do it did not accurately reflect real-world driving, and overstated MPG.

(Might want to check that, though.)

[NMDemDist2]

4. I am using my actual 'real world' numbers for the Buick. It gets 25-26 mpg

every time I check it at fillups. it's only rated at 19mpg city/28 hwy

I saw a smartcar yesterday in my little rural town and asked the owners what mileage they were getting and they said "about 37mpg" with it's 3 cyl motor, no back seat and a cargo compartment that will hold two golf bags (maybe)

my friend has a 2004 Hyundai Sonata and she only gets 22mph!!

:shrug:

[CRF450]

22. Personally, I think thats bullshit that they overstated the mpg ratings...

Unless you spend most of your driving at a stoplight, you'll usually get right at or better than the city milage on average. I do a good amount of city driving myself, yet every vehicle that I have driven, it has gotten better than the EPA rating. the OLD ratings too, not the new ones.

[thunder rising]

2. I like the way you use CITY milage. My Corolla is cheap to keep!

[NMDemDist2]

3. but that's how I drive it. the speed limit from here to town is 45mph

I hardly EVER go over 50 and only when I'm going on a shopping trip 70 miles over to the Target up in the bigger town

there are no freeways out here. I have to compare apples to apples and think of how I use the car

and my old girl has 140,000+ miles on it and still running strong

[Warpy]

9. I'd advise against the Smart Car

since I know the kind of roads you're driving and the behemoths you're sharing them with.

My own Korean econocar doesn't have that high an EPA rating, but it did a little better than 40 MPG on a drive up to Taos last fall and that's perfectly acceptable to me.

BTW, city driving doesn't refer to the speed you're traveling, but to the pattern of stop and go driving every couple of blocks, something the old EPA ratings didn't fully take into account. I think you'd find a newer econobox would get vastly superior mileage to the old girl.

I know I was astonished by the amount of gas my dad's 6 cylinder Ford sucked when I drove it in Florida a couple of years ago.

[NMDemDist2]

10. honestly I need a truck

wish I had my old Mazda B2000 back

:rofl:

[kristopher]

21. Several issues.

The driving you describe isn't "city" driving. That is lots of stop and go with plenty of sitting idle in traffic. You sound like you are describing the ideal conditions for best mileage; open roads and relatively low speed.

Next, going from 25 mpg to 37 mpg may not seem like much to you, but a 50% increase is nothing to sneeze at from a big picture standpoint. And finally, there have been no increases in the mandated Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards for so long that you have to be as old as McCain to remember.

Those little buggers were there in the 90s too, getting the same kind of mileage. They are part of the mix considered when determining if a manufacturer meets the mandated Corporate Average Fuel Economy. They traditionally have have not been a profitmaker but instead have allowed the sale of the larger less fuel efficient cars that are more profitable.

I image the relative percentage of large/medium/small going across the curb at the dealer has undergone a pretty drastic revision in the last couple of years. Is there a wait time for any of the small ones?

[zazen]

5. my 91 Festiva got 50 mpg

I'd go from Chapel Hill to Wilmington and back on a half a tank of gas. Granted, it was probably as safe as driving in a go-cart, but I haven't understood all of the brouhaha about the Prius mileage in that context, unless in fact the calculations have really changed. I didn't mind risking my own life as much, but when I had my first child, I just couldn't put her in the backseat of that thing.

[NMDemDist2]

8. that's what I'm saying! how can the new technology be worse! than the old cars?? n/t

[CRF450]

26. Car engines have gotten more effecient.

Even with the higher horsepower output these days, but when driven normally thats mostly irrelavent. Hell, most high powered 350hp cars these days can still get well over 20mpg, while muscle cars 30 years ago with same amount of power can hardly get anymore than 13mpg. The one thing IMO thats holding back better effeciency in cars now is they're getting way too damn heavy! Most full size sedans cant get any less than 4,000lbs.

[hoosier_lefty]

6. The Buick probably rides smoother.

Keep that Buick tuned up and drive it until the wheels fall off.


I sold off my 1992 LeSabre to a co-worker, it ran
good looked good and had 190k+ miles on it.
That was 3 years ago and he still drives it to work everyday.

I should have kept it. :banghead:

[NMDemDist2]

7. that's totally the plan!!

140,000 miles and still running like a top!

[shraby]

11. In the 1960s we had a Renault that gave 40mpg.

How come they can't do that now? That was when gas was 26 cents a gallon.

[NMDemDist2]

13. exactly! what's up with that? n/t

[madrchsod]

12. that`s why i`m rebuilding a 87 crx

i should have bought a 88 or later but the body has`t a spot of rust on it. the last one i had averaged 40 per gallon

[stevedeshazer]

14. Henry Ford's Model T got 25 mpg!

[Summer93]

16. Model T

In spring here and I see a lot of those old cars parading around. Amazes me that after 100 years they can get them to run.

[stevedeshazer]

20. My 85 Honda Accord got 34 MPG

I just let it go a few months ago after 260,000 miles.

[kestrel91316]

31. My '88 Accord still gets about 35 hwy. Around the city it gets pretty crappy

mileage, and it's hard to do well when your commute is 2 3/4 miles, lol; uses too much at each start-up.

But I only drive about 2500 miles a year in it, so mileage is almost moot.....

(That said, if I ever win a lottery, my FIRST purchase is a Prius, lol)

[elocs]

15. I have an '06 Scion xA RS 3.0 that gets 30 mpg in the city.

It's small, but I am the only one in the car. It's a hatchback with 4 doors and I leave the back seat down so there is a good amount of space to haul stuff. It's just right for me and I only have 8000 miles on it in the 16 months I have owned it. They only made 2100 of the Release Series 3.0, so the odds are that I will probably not see another Scion just like mine. It is made by Toyota so I am sure it will be dependable.

My last car was a '92 Corsica that had nearly 200,000 miles on it and was on its second engine. It was basically going to hell and looked like hell and only got 25 mpg on the highway and was pretty much a dog as a runner. So the good old days were not so good for me with the "what's going to go wrong next" with my car.

[NickB79]

25. My '05 Scion xA gets similar mileage

30 city/40 highway is the norm in summer driving (it drops a little in winter). The best I've ever gotten was 50 mpg highway for a long road trip, with the cruise set to 55 mph and drafting semi-trailers to cut wind resistance.

[elocs]

28. The lack of cruise as an option on the Scions was puzzling.

Nearly all of my miles are city miles. I have 8000 miles and 1500 of them are from 3 trips to Chicago. I haven't had cruise for years and so I am used to not having it. Also, there is so much traffic on my trips that it is not very useful. It's hard to tell what my actual mileage may be during the winter here in Wisconsin and when the weather gets nicer I ride my bike more. I know I have never even approached 40 mpg.

[NickB79]

33. I was able to get cruise just by asking for it.

The dealer installed a cruise control unit on mine for $300 when I purchased the car. I think it's for a Corolla, but since the dealership put it in it didn't void the warranty.

[jtrockville]

17. I have a smart - it gets much higher mileage than that.

45 city/60 highway.

[NMDemDist2]

19. well theirs was brand new

they mentioned they hoped it would improve as it 'broke in'

[kestrel91316]

32. Wow. That's tempting.

Do you find that aggressive drivers try to run you off the road, however? I would be seriously afraid of that. I live in Los Angeles where cycling to work is unsafe because people try to hit you deliberately or run you off the road.

[tvoss]

18. Check out the Saturn SL1 - 35mpg

The Saturn SL1 gets real world city mileage of 35mpg. Make sure you get the SL1, single overhead cam, stick shift. The SL2 dual overhead cam is sportier and gets less mileage. I had a 92 and and now I have a 96. They both get 35mpg in the city. I get 41mpg on long trips.

[bullwinkle428]

23. 1) Weight...2) Revised EPA numbers...3) Increased HP in all vehicles

As far as #2 goes, the EPA revised all of their numbers downward because too many sheeple were complaining the numbers were not realistic. Funny, though...I've never had trouble achieving the EPA numbers with my own car! I really haven't even gotten into advanced "hypermiling" techiniques until the last year - I just drove sensibly, and used cruise control whenever I could. My car's old, "unrealistic" numbers were 26 city, 32 highway, and I average better than 32 overall 9 times out of ten!

[RedEarth]

24. ConsumerReports: 200,000 Mile Club

200,000 Mile Club
Modern cars have the potential to drive over 100,000, 150,000, and even 200,000 miles with the right care and maintenance. Share your experiences on getting your car to go the distance, with tips to help others do the same. Please include the year, make, model, and state in your post.

http://discussions.consumerreports.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=cr-2kmileclub


Consumer Reports finds maintaining cars for 200,000 miles can save owners thousands of dollars

Yonkers, NY — With proper care, many of today’s cars can last 200,000 miles or more, and owners seeking to limit repair costs by trading in their vehicle every three to five years may lose out on thousands of savings, says Consumer Reports October issue.
Consumer Reports 2007 Annual Auto Online Survey identified 6,769 readers with 200,000 miles or more on their vehicles’ odometers. The report featured accounts that ran the gamut of make and model, including a ‘95 Honda Civic with 227,000 miles, a ‘90 Lexus LS400 with 332,000 miles and a West Virginia family’s 1994 Ford Ranger pickup with an impressive 488,000 miles.

When comparing the costs of buying and keeping a car for 225,000 miles over 15 years to buying and financing an identical model every five years, CR found the savings could be more than the original purchase price of the vehicle—and even greater if the savings were invested.

For example, Consumer Reports estimated the popular Honda Civic EX, with an automatic transmission, could potentially save its owner as much as $20,500 if properly maintained over 15 years— $1,500 more than its purchase price.

http://www.chathamjournal.com/weekly/living/autos/cr-high-mileage-cars-save-money-70911.shtml

[NMDemDist2]

37. I fully expect 200,000 miles out of that Buick

it's almost at 150K now

all I've done to it was replace an alternator and battery, serpentine belt, oil changes and tranny fluid change

it's gotta be better for the environment to keep it instead of buying new with the resources needed to make a new car

[fed-up]

27. my 1989 Honda Civic Wagovan 30MPG-263,000 miles when I sold it- did NOT follow suggested maintenance

most reliable car for a single mother ever-got it in 1996 when it had only 112,000 miles

before that I had a 1984 Honda Civic that had almost 250K miles when I sold it in 1996

[eppur_se_muova]

29. Lots of options *IF* you were shopping Europe or Japan ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=139156&mesg_id=139156

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=139159&mesg_id=139159

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=139161&mesg_id=139161

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=139148&mesg_id=139148

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=139163&mesg_id=139163

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=139155&mesg_id=139155

As someone pointed out above, more recent cars have bigger engines for more acceleration, which also means more weight -- so even though they are more efficient, much of that efficiency has been traded away for performance.

[CRF450]

30. Not exactly

Engines today have also gotten lighter, now that many of them are using aluminum blocks, aluminum cylinder heads, and composite intake manifolds. The 5.7 LS1 v8 in my car is all aluminum, and it actually weighs the same as the 3.4 v6 in my first car, because that motor was all iron, heavy stuff too! It gets the same fuel milage too while being able produce twice as much power. The LS7 in the corvette Z06 is 7.0, 427ci of displacement. It weighs the same as my LS1, and it averall the same size externally. Bigger displacement doesn't always mean "more weight".

[bad_robbie]

34. Better mileage by indreasing displacement

'The LS7 in the corvette Z06 is 7.0, 427ci of displacement. It weighs the same as my LS1, and it averall the same size externally. Bigger displacement doesn't always mean "more weight".'

That reminds me of the reasoning every high school motorhead gives to justify boring out the cylinders in the old Mustang/Camaro/Trans Am: "But dad, by boring it, I'm reducing the amount of metal in the engine and saving weight, so I'll actually get better mileage."

I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, we do have more efficient engines today. But consumer demand for more power and features plus the added weight of mandated safety equipment has really bulked up cars, and engine power has grown to meet demand. Until recently, these improvements were almost free to us -- the consumer -- since gas was so cheap. Inflation adjusted gas prices were higher in the early '80s than they are even now. I'm one of the guilty parties. My gas-guzzling 2004 is considerably smaller than by old '84 T-Bird Turbocoupe. It handles much better, is much more comfortable (in the front seats -- heated), has air bags all over the place and is generally more pleasant to operate. It's got over twice the horsepower, but the mileage is far worse, too, since it's also lots heavier.

On the plus side, the cost of a tank of gas not burned easily paid for a "trunk" and rack for my bicycle.

[CRF450]

35. What gas guzzler do you drive?

My Trans Am averages around 22-23mpg, and has reached 31mpg on the interstate going 74mph. The new Corvettes even with 430-505hp can get that much too. Thirty years ago, they never got anywhere near that much, and they performed worse. My 04 Dodge Dakota on the other hand is a real gas guzzler! 16mpg, is about what it averages. It has a 4.7 230hp v8, the whole truck weighs 6,000lbs. If that engine was to be put in a 3500lbs car, it would get similar fuel milage to mine. Even my dad's Crown Vic averages around 23mpg, with a 190hp 4.6 v8. The best its gotten on the highway was around 28mpg. Trucks with regular v8's now have around 350 to almost 400hp, they get the same fuel milage as my Dakota with a less powerful engine, despite being 1,000lbs lighter than a fullsize.

Weight kills fuel milage, thats the whole deal.

[arenean]

36. Why are those figures so low?

I don't understand why those fuel economy figures are so low (especially the Yaris and the Smart).
I know that a UK and a US gallon are slightly different, but here's the economy figures for the Top 9(!) most efficient cars available here in the UK.....


1. Seat Ibiza 1.4 TDi Ecomotive

Model/Engine size:
TDi 1.4 litre
Fuel: Diesel
Fuel economy combined: 74.3 mpg
Fuel economy extra urban: 88.3mpg
Fuel economy urban: 57.6mpg
CO2 emissions: 99 g/km


2. Volkswagen Polo Bluemotion

Model/Engine size:
BlueMotion 1.4 TDi
Fuel: Diesel
Fuel economy combined: 74.3 mpg
Fuel economy extra urban: 88.3mpg
Fuel economy urban: 57.6mpg
CO2 emissions: 99 g/km

3. Toyota Prius

Model/Engine size: 1.5 T3 petrol electric hybrid
Fuel: Petrol Electric Hybrid
Fuel economy combined:
65.7mpg
Fuel economy extra urban: 67.3mpg
Fuel economy urban: 56.5mpg
CO2 emissions: 104g/km


4. Honda Civic Hybrid

Model/Engine size: 1.3 IMA 4 door
Fuel: Petrol Electric Hybrid
Fuel economy combined:
61.4mpg
Fuel economy extra urban: 65.7mpg
Fuel economy urban: 54.3mpg
CO2 emissions: 109g/km

5. Mini Cooper D

Model/Engine size:
Cooper D 1.6 litre
Fuel: Diesel
Fuel economy combined: 72.4 mpg
Fuel economy extra urban: 80.7mpg
Fuel economy urban: 60.1mpg
CO2 emissions: 104 g/km


6. Skoda Fabia 1.4 TDi 80 DPF GreenLine

Model/Engine size: 1422cc/80 bhp
Fuel: Diesel
Fuel economy combined:
68.9mpg
Fuel economy extra urban: 70.6mpg
Fuel economy urban: 49.6mpg
CO2 emissions: 109g/km

7. Fiat 500 1.3 16v Multijet Pop

Model/Engine size: 1248cc/75 bhp
Fuel: Diesel
Fuel economy combined:
67.3mpg
Fuel economy extra urban: 78.5mpg
Fuel economy urban: 53.3mpg
CO2 emissions: 110g/km

8. Toyota Aygo/
Citroen C1/Peugeot 107

Model/Engine size: 1.0 VVT-i + (5 door)
Fuel: Petrol
Fuel economy combined:
61.4mpg
Fuel economy extra urban: 68.9mpg
Fuel economy urban: 51.4mpg
CO2 emissions: 109g/km

9. Smart Fortwo

Model/Engine size: 61 bhp/71 bhp
Fuel: Petrol
Fuel economy combined:
60.1mpg
Fuel economy extra urban: 70.6mpg
Fuel economy urban: 46.3mpg
CO2 emissions: 112g/km

[bullwinkle428]

38. Man! A Mini Cooper Clubman with a 1.6 liter diesel would be beyond sweet!

It outperforms the Prius and Civic Hybrid in fuel economy, and produces comparable CO2 emissions numbers as well!

[hatrack]

39. Can you nurse your Buick along for a few more years?

Just from a personal finance point of view, the best new car (unless your existing ride is an oil-burning behemoth) is often the one you don't have to buy.