Toyota's Watanabe Warns That Fuel-Cell Car Commercialization Difficult, Years From Showroom - AFP

[hatrack]

Work is moving ahead to build a next-generation eco-friendly car running on fuel cells but it will take years to make it commercially viable, the head of auto giant Toyota said Thursday. Japanese companies have been working to create a viable car running on fuel cells, which would produce electricity through a chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen, leaving water as the only by-product.

"When we first started the research and development of fuel-cell cars, some people predicted that they may be commercialised by around 2010. But that's difficult," Toyota Motor Corp. president Katsuaki Watanabe said. "The technological advances are significant. The only problem is the cost," he told reporters.

Toyota last year reported success in a test of a fuel-cell car. The FCHV vehicle was driven about 560 kilometres (350 miles) on a single filling and finished with 30 percent of the hydrogen still in the tank.

But besides the hefty price of the FCHV, Watanabe noted that motorists would need an infrastructure of hydrogen filling stations if they are to take fuel-cell cars on the road. "It will probably be a long way ahead until we can start mass production, considering problems linked to difficulties in how to stock hydrogen and where to draw hydrogen from," he said.

EDIT

http://www.terradaily.com/2007/080313112320.e2v2tmon.html

[DainBramaged]

1. The same infrastructure we need for ethanol use is way far away

The oil giants don't want YOU the consumer weaning yourselves off of demon oil.


Without government subsidies, E85 and hydrogen filling stations are a pipe dream in this lifetime.

[wtmusic]

2. The only problem is the cost

but the difficulties are how to stock hydrogen and where to draw hydrogen from.

Problem/difficulties. Got it. :crazy:

[OKIsItJustMe]

3. Stocking hydrogen really isn't much of a problem...

... and you don't "draw" it from anywhere. Hydrogen (as has been pointed out many times on this board) is essentially a storage medium for electricity.

(Somewhat oversimplified):

H₂O + electricity ⇒ H₂ + O₂
H₂ + O₂ ⇒ H₂O + electricity

That means anywhere you have H₂O and electricity (say... at the little gas station on the corner...) you can produce hydrogen (and oxygen) pretty much on demand.

There are multiple ways to store it on board a car. The most straight-forward way is in pressure tanks.

[wtmusic]

5. So your source is incorrect then

"When we first started the research and development of fuel-cell cars, some people predicted that they may be commercialised by around 2010. But that's difficult," Toyota Motor Corp. president Katsuaki Watanabe said. "The technological advances are significant. The only problem is the cost," he told reporters.

Toyota last year reported success in a test of a fuel-cell car. The FCHV vehicle was driven about 560 kilometres (350 miles) on a single filling and finished with 30 percent of the hydrogen still in the tank.

But besides the hefty price of the FCHV, Watanabe noted that motorists would need an infrastructure of hydrogen filling stations if they are to take fuel-cell cars on the road. "It will probably be a long way ahead until we can start mass production, considering problems linked to difficulties in how to stock hydrogen and where to draw hydrogen from," he said.

Good to know (I always thought he made a lot more sense than Lutz).

[happyslug]

6. The problem of Hydrogen Storage is do to Hydrogen being the smallest element.

Hydrogen is the smallest element, it has only one proton and one electron.

To under stand how small Hydrogen is you must understand how the electrons is attached to the proton of an element. The electrons form in rings around the protons. The first set of rings is filled at 2. The second set of rings is filled at 8, the third set of ring also fills at 8 electrons (And it has been 30 years since I took Chemistry II in High School, see what you remember even after 30 years of NOT using it).

Thus Oxygen (16 Protons and Electrons) has its inner two most rings of Electrons Filled, but needs tow more to fill its outer ring. Hydrogen needs one addition electron to filled its inner (and only) ring of electrons. To fill these rings the elements combine with other elements, thus two Hydrogens atoms combined with one Oxygen atom. The Two hydrogen atoms fill their outer rings by sharing a atom apiece from the Oxygen atom and the Oxygen atom last ring is filled by sharing the one atom from two Hydrogen Atoms.

What this mean is that a Water molecule is just slightly bigger than a Oxygen atom (Both have the same size do to having three outer rings of Electrons), but about three times the size as a Hydrogen atom. This also means anything containing Hydrogen has to be able to contain this smallest element.

Now a factor is that Hydrogen is Vapor NOT liquid. When things turn liquid they are smaller than when in aerial form (Solids are even smaller). I will NOT go into how much smaller for if I remember right it is specific to each element, the Temperature and the Pressure on that element at that time. I only bring it up that, as a liquid, Hydrogen atoms will still be smaller than any other element in a liquid form and almost smaller then most (if not all) solids. Thus hydrogen will leak out out of almost any container, for liquid Hydrogen is smaller then the gaps between the elements in even the tightness solid container. This can be delayed, but it can NOT be stopped and for that reason fuel cells do fail and need to be toped off with more hydrogen every so often. Now the escaped Hydrogen combines with Oxygen in the Atmosphere be become water, so not harmful except to the battery itself. Thus most fuel cells will have to be topped off with Hydrogen every so often.

Thus the problem with Fuel Cells is NOT the theory, but that Hydrogen is so small it is hard to contain in liquid form (It is easier to contain in a Air Form for as such each Hydrogen is much larger). Furthermore since the Hydrogen is stored under pressure it wants to force itself through the container, which drives the lost of Hydrogen even more. From what I have read NASA prefers to use the air form of Hydrogen in its fuel cells, for you have less loss, but that takes up more space.


Thus the problem is NOT making the Hydrogen but storing it in a form we can use in a Car. In a air form Hydrogen can be used as part of a Fuel Cell Electrical Storage device (With the main form of power something else) but once you decide to use Hydrogen as a Fuel, the lost do to hydrogen small size when compressed may make it unworkable. Research is going on to contain Hydrogen but it is a lot harder to contain then water with its 2 atoms of Hydrogen Attached to the third layer of Electrons on a Oxygen Atom and much harder then the carbon-Hydrogen mixture that makes up a molecular of Gasoline.

[OKIsItJustMe]

7. There currently are a number of ways to store hydrogen

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/storage/current_technology.html

Current Technology

Hydrogen storage is a significant challenge for the development and viability of hydrogen-powered vehicles. On-board hydrogen storage in the range of approximately 5-13 kg is required to enable a driving range of greater than 300 miles for the full platform of light duty automotive vehicles using fuel cell power plants.

Hydrogen Storage Technologies

Current on-board hydrogen storage approaches involve compressed hydrogen gas tanks, liquid hydrogen tanks, metal hydrides, carbon-based materials/high surface area sorbents, and chemical hydrogen storage. Storage as a gas or liquid or storage in metal hydrides or high surface area sorbents constitute "reversible" on-board hydrogen storage systems, since hydrogen regeneration or refill can take place on-board the vehicle. For chemical hydrogen storage approaches (such as a chemical reaction on board the vehicle to produce hydrogen), hydrogen regeneration is not possible on-board the vehicle and thus these spent materials must be removed from the vehicle and regenerated off board.

...

[happyslug]

8. At a loss rate of 1% per day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_hydrogen

Most storage plans use some sort of intermediate storage, mix H2 with something else till needed, then release the H2 and the other elements:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage

1% per day does NOT sound like much, but it means storage at the local level has to be at the Gaseous stage with a compressor to compress the H2 to liquid form when needed. Given that H2 boils at about 20 K (20.268 K, –252.882 °C or -423.188 °F) it takes a good bit of energy to get H2 to the liquid state. For more see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage

The more I look into the details of H2 as a fuel, the more I see problems. Will H2 be used in the future as a fuel? yes, but not for commuting it will be reserved for a little more than it is used for today, launching high value rockets into space and other similar high priory usage, not for commuting or even transportation of goods.

[happyslug]

4. Is he talking about Fuel Cells or Hydrogen as a fuel?

Fuel Cells are electrical Storage device. A fuel cell is an more efficient "battery" NOT a fuel in itself. Fuel cells have abut a 50% efficient rating, i.e. for every watt of power you put into it, you get 1/2 watt out, batteries are only 20% efficient, for every watt your put into it, you get 1/5 of a watt out.

A Fuel Cell, being an electrical Storage device, is always undergoing a switch between being fully charged and dis-charged. You do NOT need to re-fill it unless the Hydrogen escapes. If the system is Celled so Hydrogen or water does NOT escape, the Fuel Cell can last forever (In theory, but it does wear out). If part of a Hybrid car, the Fuel Cell could provide more electrical power then a battery do to its greater efficient. The only thing better is a electrical Fly-wheel which has a 90% efficient rating, but operates at a high rate of speed and is expensive to produce compared to Fuel Cells and Batteries (The Fuel Cells are more expensive to produce than Batteries, the last report I read was on the order of 50,000, i.e. A battery can be produced for $10, a fuel cell of the same storage ability would cost $500,000, that is expected to come down but when and how soon I will have to deferrer ot others).)

Now, this Articles does NOT sound like a Fuel Cell, but a Hydrogen Car. That is a complete different animal. In a Hydrogen Car, hydrogen is stored in a Sealed container and released to combined with Oxygen to produce energy as both combine to become water. The energy released is used like gasoline in a gasoline Engine. As such Hydrogen is a FUEL, not a supper efficient Battery which is all a Fuel Cell is for all practical purpose.

My point is Fuel Cells are NOT hydrogen powered Vehicles. We do not call electrical cars "Lead-Acid" cars, but Electric Cars for, while Lead Acid is the Electrical Storage device the real power is the electrical power NOT Lead or Acid. The same with Fuel Cells, these are electrical Storage devices, NOT how the electrical power is first generated. Hydrogen is NOT how electrical power is produced but only how it is stored, unlike a hydrogen car where the power source is Hydrogen.

Now, Fuel Cells may need to be "toped" off with water once in a while. I remember of old batteries on pre-1970 cars. These were NOT sealed units for the batteries lost acid over time. I remember my father filling them with distilled water (Most Gasoline stations had it in stock). The Fuel cells may have to undo the same type of refilling, but that will be determined whenever Fuel Cells are finally capable of use in an automobile at a price most people can afford.

[NNadir]

9. What about the hydrogen hypercar.

It's been in showrooms since 2005:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/10/1016_TVhypercar.html

[wtmusic]

10. Very funny. And the link to the Hype-rcar's website times out

How appropriate.

[NNadir]

11. This article has a fascinating comment from Lovins showing that you don't have to know the first law

of thermodynamics to be considered an "energy expert" in this deliberately stupid country:

He says the first Hypercars should be leased to people who work in buildings where fuel cells have already been installed. The Hypercars could tap into the buildings' supply of hydrogen to refuel. But they could also be hooked up to the grid.

As "portable power plants on wheels," the cars' fuel cells could be put to work during the day when they're parked, generating—and selling—electricity.

"It doesn't take many people wanting to be paid to park, rather than the other way around…to put the coal and nuclear people out of business," said Lovins. And of course, using fuel cells would dramatically decrease the need for oil.

Incredible as it may seem, there are extremely illiterate dumb bells everywhere who take this bit of scientific illiteracy seriously.

Lovins never saw a scientific law he couldn't mangle.