Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong"?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
ben_meyers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 08:35 PM
Original message
Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong"?
New derivation of equations governing the greenhouse effect reveals "runaway warming" impossible

Miklós Zágoni isn't just a physicist and environmental researcher. He is also a global warming activist and Hungary's most outspoken supporter of the Kyoto Protocol. Or was.(snip)

"Runaway greenhouse theories contradict energy balance equations," Miskolczi states. Just as the theory of relativity sets an upper limit on velocity, his theory sets an upper limit on the greenhouse effect, a limit which prevents it from warming the Earth more than a certain amount.

How did modern researchers make such a mistake? They relied upon equations derived over 80 years ago, equations which left off one term from the final solution.(snip)

His theory was eventually published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal in his home country of Hungary.

The conclusions are supported by research published in the Journal of Geophysical Research last year from Steven Schwartz of Brookhaven National Labs, who gave statistical evidence that the Earth's response to carbon dioxide was grossly overstated. It also helps to explain why current global climate models continually predict more warming than actually measured.

http://www.dailytech.com/Researcher+Basic+Greenhouse+Equations+Totally+Wrong/article10973.htm
http://www.ecd.bnl.gov/steve/pubs/HeatCapacity.pdf
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. No one is talking about "runaway greenhouse"...
...theory. GW isn't based on "runaway greenhouse" effects, so the story is based on a straw man argument.

It was a nice try, though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ben_meyers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. You have a "peer reviewed" link to that information
Edited on Wed Mar-12-08 08:44 PM by ben_meyers
I assume, or do I just accept your argument on faith? Did you read Brookhavens research?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Why don't you google...
..."global warming, runaway greenhouse" and see how you completely fail to get any scientific papers on the subject. There is a difference between warming due to greenhouse gases and "runaway greenhouse warming." It is the difference between Earth (which *always* has some effect from greenhouse gases) and Venus (which is a reasonably good example of a runaway greenhouse effect).

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Here's a graph that represents everything I've ever read on the subject:


I don't see this as "runaway" temperatures, but I have not read the article yet.

Perhaps you could clue us in as to what the author means by "runaway" temperatures.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
angrycarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. the Planet venus is the upper limit.
Not buying it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. The only runaway theory seriously being worried about...

Involves methane, not CO2.

I'll wait for the realclimate.org folks to address this, before making my mind up on it, but so far it looks like a red herring.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. I don't think the ice caps read this article.
Otherwise, they wouldn't be melting so fast.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IQ200 Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Melting so fast
You're right, they're actually getting thicker, or did you miss the memo?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Looks like you need to improve your comprehension ...
... but welcome anyway! :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I think that was meant to be sarcastic.
Hence the "memo" comment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
7. I love this quote
"NASA refused to release the results. Miskolczi believes their motivation is simple. "Money", he tells DailyTech. Research that contradicts the view of an impending crisis jeopardizes funding, not only for his own atmosphere-monitoring project, but all climate-change research. Currently, funding for climate research tops $5 billion per year."

Isn't claiming global warming is all a big conspiracy theory one of the hallmarks of Rush Limpballs and his ilk?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. Oh those scentists! They'll do anything to keep to keep their $45,000/yr desk jobs!
And, as we know, billionaire oil barons, by virtue of their wealth, which shows their heightened morality, would NEVER lie in an attempt to keep or increase their billions.

But, as has already been pointed out, this is the usual False Choice and Non Sequitur presented by Deniers.

OK, the Earth won't become another Venus.

Would it be too much to ask what the fuck that has to do with the climate problems we face?

Doctor, you say I will have to lose my leg, right?

Well, we have determined your body will NOT purtify into a liquid mass.

But what about my leg?

I said your body won't putrify into a liquid mass!


:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 05:31 AM
Response to Original message
10. A commentary on Zagoni's claim
Edited on Thu Mar-13-08 06:29 AM by GliderGuider
From what I read about Zagoni's claim, it appears to be a refinement of the mathematics of global warming, He claims that the equations in general use right now to predict the amount of temperature rise that will result from any given level of CO2 are slightly incomplete (he says the equations are missing one term). He says that when you apply his corrected equations to the situation they predict a slower temperature rise that eventually damps down before it runs away - in other words the Earth won't turn into Venus from our fossil fuel consumption. He also says that he has applied his equations to the situation on Mars, and achieved a good match to the actual conditions, and that's an encouraging sign that he might be onto something valid.

What does it all mean? Well, it doesn't mean that Zagoni thinks global warming is a crock. He doesn't think that at all. He just believes he has found a fairly significant correction that will change some predictions about the potential final outcome of GW. Projections of climate behaviour as CO2 rises may be modified if he's right, but his findings don't undercut the science of atmospheric physics. His claims have yet to be verified, though I did read that one lab in the States thinks he may be right. What remains to be done is verification of his procedure by a large number of skeptical scientists. This is the sort of scientific bun-fight that will be settled in the journals, and it's way too early to be drawing any conclusions from the debate. This sort of correction happens all the time in science, but the GW deniers are already jumping on the Bandwagon of Uncertainty and exploiting it to the hilt. The implications don't seem to be nearly as revolutionary as some are claiming.

The claim that "current global climate models continually predict more warming than actually measured" seems a little over the top, given how everything about GW is happening Faster Than Expected®. I'm not planning to get too worked up about it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. What is odd is that I can't find ANY peer review of his work.
Schwartz isn't out yet. It is in press.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
12. Discussion and conclusion from Schwartz
7. Discussion, conclusions, and implications
The findings of the present study may be considered surprising in several respects:
(1) The relatively small effective heat capacity of the global ocean that is coupled to the increase in global
mean surface temperature over the five-decade period for which ocean heat content measurements are
available, 14 ± 6 W yr m-2 K-1 (0.44 G J m-2 K-1), equivalent to about 150 m of the world ocean, and the
correspondingly low effective planetary heat capacity C, 16.7 ± 7.0 W yr m-2 K-1 (0.5 ± 0.2 G J m-2 K-1).
(2) The short relaxation time constant of global mean surface temperature in response to perturbations τ, 5
± 1 years; and
(3) The low equilibrium climate sensitivity λs-1 inferred from (1) and (2) as λ τs− =1 /C, 0.30 ± 0.14 K/(W
m-2), equivalent to equilibrium temperature increase for doubled CO2 ∆T2 × = 1.1 ± 0.5 K.
This value is well below current best estimates of this quantity, summarized in the Fourth Assessment Report of the
IPCC <2007> to be "2 to 4.5 K with a best estimate of about 3 K and ... very unlikely to be less than 1.5
K".


This situation invites a scrutiny of the each of these findings for possible sources of error of interpretation
in the present study.

Is the effective heat capacity that is coupled to the climate system, as determined from trends in ocean heat
content and GMST, too low, or too high? For a given relaxation time constant τ, a lower value of C would
result in a greater climate sensitivity, and vice versa. As noted above previous investigators have used similar
considerations to suggest different values for C, in one instance substantially greater than the value reported
17 here (20 - 50 W yr m-2 K-1) and in one instance with a range of a factor of 20, (3.2 - 65 W yr m-2 K-1) that
encompasses the value determined here.

Examination of Figure 4 suggests that it would be hard to justify a slope less than about 8 W yr m-2 K-1. Perhaps
a more fundamental question has to do with the
representativeness of the data that comprise the Levitus et al. <2005> compilation. In this context it might be
noted that Willis et al. <2004> reported an heat uptake rate in the upper 750 meters of the ocean, based on
satellite altimetry as well as in-situ measurements, of 0.86 ± 0.12 W m-2, a factor of 7 greater than the
Levitus et al. <2005> average for 1958-1995; a greater heat uptake rate would result in a greater effective
ocean heat capacity and a lower climate sensitivity. However in a subsequent publication a year later Lyman
et al. <2006> reported a rapid net loss of ocean heat for 2003-2005 that led those investigators to estimate
the heat uptake rate for 1993-2005 as 0.33 ± 0.23 W m-2, a value much more consistent with the long-term
record in the Levitus et al. <2005> data set. The previous instances of several-year periods of net loss of
heat from the ocean exhibited in the Levitus et al. <2005> data and shown in Figure 2 suggest the necessity
of evaluating the effective heat capacity based on a long-term record.
Is the relaxation time constant of the climate system determined by autocorrelation analysis the pertinent
time constant of the climate system? Of the several assumptions on which the present analysis rests, this
would seem to invite the greatest scrutiny. A possible explanation for the short time constant inferred from
the autocorrelation analysis might be that the autocorrelation is dominated by short term variability, such as
that resulting from volcanic eruptions, and that the thermal signal from such a short perturbations would not
be expected to penetrate substantially into the deep ocean. Two considerations would speak against such an
explanation. First, the autocorrelation leading to the 5-year time constant extended out to lag times of 15
years or more with little indication of increased time constant for lag time greater than about 5-8 years
(Figure 6). Also, recent studies with coupled ocean atmosphere GCMs have shown that the thermal signal
from even a short-duration volcanic event is transported into the deep ocean and can persist for decades
; such penetration of the thermal signal from a short-
duration forcing would suggest that the autocorrelation of GMST over a decade or more would be
representative of the longer time constant associated with the coupling to the deep ocean and not reflective
simply of a short time constant associated with the ocean mixed layer.
Finally, as the present analysis rests on a simple single-compartment energy balance model, the question
must inevitably arise whether the rather obdurate climate system might be amenable to determination of its
key properties through empirical analysis based on such a simple model. In response to that question it
might have to be said that it remains to be seen. In this context it is hoped that the present study might
stimulate further work along these lines with more complex models. It might also prove valuable to apply
the present analysis approach to the output of global climate models to ascertain the fidelity with which
18
these models reproduce "whole Earth" properties of the climate system such as are empirically determined
here. Ultimately of course the climate models are essential to provide much more refined projections of
climate change than would be available from the global mean quantities that result from an analysis of the
present sort. Still it would seem that empirical examination of these global mean quantities – effective heat
capacity, time constant, and sensitivity – can usefully constrain climate models and thereby help to identify
means for improving the confidence in these models.
The empirical determinations presented here of global heat capacity and of the time constant of climate
response to perturbations on the multidecadal time scale lead to a value of equilibrium global climate
sensitivity of 0.30 ± 0.14 K/(W m-2), where the uncertainty range denotes a one-sigma estimate. This
sensitivity together with the increase in global mean surface temperature over the twentieth century would
imply a total forcing 1.9 ± 0.9 W m-2; although the central value of this range is fairly close to the total
greenhouse gas forcing over this time period, 2.2 W m-2, this result is consistent with an additional forcing
over the twentieth century of –0.30 ± 0.97 W m-2. The rather large uncertainty range could be consistent
with either substantial cooling forcing (-1.3 W m-2) or substantial warming forcing (+ 0.7 W m-2), with
aerosol forcing a likely major contributor. Because of the short response time of the climate system to
perturbations, the climate system may be considered in near steady state to applied forcings and hence,
within the linear forcing-response model, the change in temperature over a given time period may be
apportioned to the several forcings. The estimated increase in GMST by well mixed greenhouse gases from
preindustrial times to the present, 0.7 ± 0.3 K; the upper end of this range approaches the threshold for
"dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate system," which is considered to be in the range 1 to
2 K .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
16. Would you stop posting shit from DailyTech; it's the FreeRepublic clearinghouse of climate disinfo
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 01st 2024, 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC