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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 05:06 AM
Original message
Democratic leaders say Yucca Mountain could be closed within a year
http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=7293434

U.S. Senate Holds Contentious Hearing Regarding Yucca Mountain

A heated debate and now new hope in the fight against Yucca Mountain -- this time from the United States Senate. Wednesday, the environmental committee held a contentious hearing aimed squarely at shutting down the proposed nuclear dump.

<snip>

Nevada senators Harry Reid, John Ensign, Barbara Boxer and even Hillary Clinton fresh from the campaign trail. It wasn't about slowing down Yucca Mountain -- it was about ending the project forever.

After three decades of controversy and stalling, democratic leaders say Yucca Mountain could be closed within a year. Wednesday's hearing offered no binding commitments, but it did renew the call to cut off funding and squeeze the project dry.

<snip>

Senator Hillary Clinton was one of the harshest voices. She grilled nuclear experts over what she sees as a shoddy process. Nevada Senator John Ensign broke from the party line though to blast the Bush administration, the Environmental Protection Agency and the Department of Energy.

<snip>

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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
1. I don't know what to do with the nuclear waste we have now
but yucca mountain doesn't seem to be the right place to store it. I say we don't build anymore nuclear reactors until what to do with the waste is figured out. spend the money on less harmful to life alternatives some of which possibly is not even discovered as of yet. Nuclear waste with a half life of so much time scares the hell out of me. just saying
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It sits around at the nuclear plants doing nothing.
Like this:



Regional caching of nuclear waste would probably be a better idea than a central facility like Yucca Mountain (which was a bizarre political boondoggle from the start) but eventually this nuclear waste is probably going to be recycled. Current nuclear plants use only a fraction of the energy contained in the fuel.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Are those casts warrantied for 240,000 (let alone 300) year containment ??
nope...
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Systematic Chaos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Is the biosphere warrantied for another 500,000,000,000 tons of CO2?
nope...
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Does the US have the uranium resources to support an expanded nuclear power sector?
nope

Would the money spent to dispose of dangerous nuclear waste be better spent on energy efficiency and renewable energy technologies?

Big Yup
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Systematic Chaos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. You are absolutely correct.*
*This statement only applies to Bizarro World. Offer valid only at participating stores. Restrictions apply. Your mileage may vary. Caution - Contents Hot. If you experience priapism - an erection lasting four hours or longer - please seek medical attention immediately. Side effects may include heartburn, dry mouth, or an excessive affinity for "renewable" energy sources which in many cases are themselves toxic, destructive to wildlife, and collectively don't stand a snowball's chance of filling in the gap once the oil, coal and natural gas supplies are gone.

This post sponsored by the number 13,013. "Bob" loves you.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Actually dangerous fossil fuel waste is a serious problem. There is, by comparison,
NO dangerous nuclear waste, since there is NOT ONE person in the dangerous anti-nuke religion who can produce a single case of a person injured by the storage of used nuclear fuel.

Of course, the anti-nuke religion - a kind of anti-scientific creationism - never stops to ponder whether the dangerous fossil fuel waste repository, that would be the atmosphere, is filled. They couldn't care less.

The matter of energy resources is covered nicely in a recent paper in the scientific literature - something one is not qualified to read if you repeat the 31 year old rhetoric of the paid (off) Walmart thug Amory Lovins almost none of which has been correct - by Weston Hermann of Standford University's Global Climate and Energy Project. The paper cited is called "Quantifying Global Exergy Resources" and the reference is Energy 31 (2006) 1685–1702, and it all about thermodynamics, a topic you're not allowed to know about if you want to go to Greenpeace services.

Now, if you're in Greenpeace and thus are religiously restricted from reading stuff called "science" close your eyes, now, less you be struck down by the Windmill God as channeled by Saint Amory of the Holy Rio Tinto Amazon Cyanide Laced Gold Mine.

All activity in the universe derives from matter and energy becoming more disorganized as expressed by the second law of thermodynamics. This law can be used to quantify the degree of disorder and define the work potential of a substance relative to a reference state. When the substance is allowed to interact only with a reservoir in the reference state, this work potential is the exergy of the substance <1>. Exergy describes the quality of energy in addition to the quantity, providing deeper insight into work potential than analyses which only utilize the first law.


Now, the first law isn't the law of mocking scientific units by saying "EXO-JEWEL" whenever anyone discusses the unrelenting fact that solar energy is just a toy for trust fund brats living on Mommy's dime and dreaming of a Tesla sports car, electric of course.

Continues Dr. Hermann:

Exergy does not describe the ability of humankind to exploit a resource, but is a path-independent property, serving as a model for the theoretically extractable work contained in a resource regardless of geometry, technology, and economics. This independence makes exergy a useful tool for evaluating the efficiency of resource energy conversion and comparing the magnitudes of resources both within and beyond current technical ability and experience.


You can't get into Greenpeace if you've passed a high school AP math course, and so there is no point in repeating the short thermodynamics review in the article but it has this to say about uranium resources:

Uranium and thorium are two heavy elements created in stellar events billions of years ago that readily undergo nuclear fission and exist in significant abundance on Earth. These elements can be found throughout the crust, but are concentrated in certain geologic deposits. Concentrated uranium occurrences are estimated to be about 13 Tg <42>, representing an exergy reservoir of 1YJ with a specific exergy of 77 TJ/kg. The known 4Tg thorium resource has an exergy of 300 ZJ <46> with a specific exergy of 78 TJ/kg. In addition to ores, uranium also exists at a concentration of 3.3 ppb in the ocean <47>. With approximately 1.4 Yg seawater, the
seawater uranium exergy reservoir is over 350 YJ.


I can't wait to see how the anti-nuke religion deals with yet another scientific unit for which it has only contempt, but a YJ is a yottajoule, which is one million exajoules.

World energy consumption was 488 exajoules in 2005, almost all of it coming from fossil fuels, about which the anti-nuke religion couldn't care less.

Of course, the anti-nuke religion, with its contempt for science, it's "chalk is cheese," "yogurt is metal" and "soap is lightning" rhetoric, Nader and Lovins type ignorance, loves to run around swearing the world is running out of uranium, which is pretty amusing when you think about it, because this cute little cult seems awfully anxious about the possibility that uranium resources are big and that people will continue to use them in vast amounts. This religion, beginning with Lovins prayers written in 1976 and 1980 on the subject of how nuclear energy was "just going away because it doesn't work," seems to be really, really straining to prove that it is just going away, especially because nuclear energy is producing 4 times as much energy as it was in 1980.

In fact, the little cult - and doesn't it sort of remind you of Pat Robertson's cult about evolution - is against the world's largest, by far, source of climate change gas free energy. It is also now the cheapest form of climate change gas free energy except - in some places - hydroelectricity, especially when you include external costs as determined by the increasingly utilized discipline of life cycle analysis.

There have been some interesting papers on this subject published about the external cost of the cute, less than an exajoule scale, forms of energy most chanted about by the anti-nuke religion. I'll cite those papers in response to the next bit of anti-nuke chanting I hear from the "I couldn't care less" anti-nuke squad.

I also have just read a very interesting paper about the environmental cost of an imaginary nuclear phase out in Japan, which could even be worse than the grave damage being done to the atmosphere by the anti-nuke pro-coal forces in Germany who have just handed megaeuros to the South African coal industry.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Has anyone ever died dancing on the surface of the sun?
Answer: No.

So which conclusion is correct?

Dancing on the surface of the sun is dangerous.

Dancing on the surface of the sun is not dangerous.

I think most reasonable people will go with number one. But you can be the first to try it out. Right after you prove to us how safe nuclear waste is by exposing yourself to it.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. The current mass extinction is being accomplished with fossil fuels.
This Great Extinction, perhaps the end of a geological era, has not been the result of huge volcanic episodes, continental drift, or giant asteroid impacts. It has been caused by a plague species destroying natural ecosystems and burning all the oil, coal, and natural gas they can get their little monkey hands on.

In comparison to that, the problems of nuclear waste seem quite trivial.


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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. you're right about the plague species but the plague will spread with nuclear energy---who will
guard all these plants from terrorists targeting them or people stealing/dealing plutonium? And how does the US think it can tell others like Iran they can't develop nuclear energy plants while we proiferate them ourselves?

Use your brain---nukes are NOT the answer. A growing no. of people are heating with solar, wind, biofuels. I bought a pellet stove and while it runs partially on electricity, I've cut my electric use overall b/c my condo is heated by an electric heat pump otherwise.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Of course we don't want Iran to have nukes.
It makes them less likely to put up with our bullying.

But that line has already been crossed. Other nuclear nations have business interests in Iran that they don't want us messing up. We have demonstrated our utter inability to manage hostile populations in Afghanistan and Iraq, and our posturing in Iran only makes us look like Bob Dole in a Viagra advertisement.

I respect the argument against nuclear power that it might allow our destructive cult of automobiles, consumerism, nationalism, and xenophobia to continue as oil production peaks and falls, but I don't think it can. I don't see any glorious future of zippy electric or hydrogen powered cars, where nuclear power simply replaces oil and natural gas. We'll probably be lucky to keep the lights on and the children fed when oil and natural gas supplies begin to slip into repeating cycles of demand destruction.

At some point, when we are forced by simple economics to retreat from the nations we occupy, the threat of international terrorism will diminish and home-grown domestic terrorism will become the greater danger.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Nukes are not THE answer but they are a vital PART of it.
> A growing no. of people are heating with solar, wind, biofuels.
> I bought a pellet stove and while it runs partially on electricity,
> I've cut my electric use overall b/c my condo is heated by an
> electric heat pump otherwise.

That's great (and I mean that, no sarcasm) and that number of people
needs to grow large & fast.

The "use your brain" comment could however be bounced back to you as
you keep repeating the "terrorist" meme instead of considering where
the danger from "nuclear weapons" really comes from.

The danger from terrorists managing to get hold of radioactive substances
(whether from raiding a nuclear power station or from stealing medical
equipment) the biggest danger is that they set off a "dirty" bomb
(i.e., a standard explosive bomb with a selection of radioactive materials
wrapped around it) not a true nuclear bomb (fission or even fusion).

Apart from the people directly injured by the blast, a dirty bomb is just
another pollutant that can be cleaned up - its "power" as a terrorist
weapon comes from the fact that the general public has been trained to be
shit-scared of anything involving the word "radiation" - so the major
impact is the combination of inconvenience (the target area is taken
off-limits for some time) and panic (the media will have a real party
exercising their renowned scientific skills together with their various
"pull it out of my arse" scenarios for selling more papers).

The only source of a genuine nuclear weapon (i.e., a fission/fusion bomb)
is a nation state and, given the recent debacle with the USAF, I would
not be too quick to point fingers at the Middle East either.

At the moment, the biggest single risk of nuclear devastation is not the
hypothetical "second Chernobyl" nor is it the "Al Qaeda H-bomb" but is
the bunch of homicidal maniacs in the White House & associated buildings.

> who will guard all these plants from terrorists targeting them or people
> stealing/dealing plutonium?

The same people who guard any other source of dangerous materials.
In most of the world, this equates to a branch of state security.
In America, it is the lowest bidder (who, in turn, hires the cheapest
dumb-shits it can get away with). IMO *that* is your problem rather
than the actual contents ... not the technology, not the security
but the implementation in the "profit uber alles" USA.

:shrug:
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zeaper Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. Now What?
Wow! That was money well spent. Thank you congress!
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. Good. Yucca Mountain is on a fault line and right next to a major population center. (nt)
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 01:59 PM by w4rma
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