Immigration 101

[AmyStrange]

If (big if) whomever is in charge of shaping our immigration policy would make a surprise inspection of all the farms in the United States that tend towards hiring immigrant labor and boot out everyone who was an immigrant (they can't throw them in prison can they?) and fined the owners or stockholders or whomever would be fined in those cases millions of dollars and from that date forward promise to

continue the surprise inspections at the rate of .1% per week... this would virtually solve the immigration problem in my opinion, but would it work?

The amount of wealth we're talking about (atleast the amount of combined farm wealth involved) would bury the United States government in legal challenges and injunctions. Not only that, but if it did work, the cost to buy fresh vegetables and fruits in this country would skyrocket, because (the sad fact is) not many legal US citizens (or here using legitimate work visas) wants to work on farms (and other seasonal jobs) for the wages that would be required to hire them.



Here's some cool and/ or informative Immigration Sites:

U.S.A. Immigration Services:
http://www.usais.org/

ABOUT: Immigration Issues:
http://immigration.about.com/

Founded in 1965, the Immigration History Research Center enriches society by preserving and promoting understanding of the history of the American immigrant experience:
http://www1.umn.edu/ihrc/



feel free (like I could stop you) to attach other immigration sites or just your opinions to this thread. All voices should be heard here,

Dave (AmyStrange.com)

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[NYT]

1. I think it would worsen the economy.

Although I disagree with illegal immigration, I think if they rounded up all the illegals and sent them home, there would be a big void in the work force...for awhile. The employers wouldn't be able to hire as many citizens or "legals" for the price they are paying the illegals. Bad idea if you ask me.

In my opinion, they should be deported, but not all at once, just enough to be more than the number still coming in.

Personally, anyone that wants to come into this country that doesn't have a violent criminal history is okay in my book and should be allowed in.

[AmyStrange]

3. Welcome to the DU...

and I agree with most of what you said.

Dave (AmyStrange.com)

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[Capn Sunshine]

2. Absolutely. It would be a BIG hit

Dave, I know you mean well, but you are talking about taking apart an economic system that has been in place historically in the West since we became a part of the United States.

The bottom line here is that the American public is as used to cheap foodstuffs and other immigrant driven services (think hotel maidservice for one, or janitorial in your office buildings)as they are cheap oil. No one is willing to pay 5.00 for lettuce or 2.50 for an orange; eight dollars for a bag of broccoli or seven fifty for a big Mac. You get the idea.Further, if these poor souls were replaced by legal citizens, you better believe that they'd be unionized.Add another layer of cost to the cycle.

I just don't think the public has the resolve to pay the money it would take to employ legals in these positions. I could be wrong, but the shit work associated with illegal aliens currently pays less than minimum wage in many cases.

While I am much closer to the border , and my family and our lands have been citizens of Mexico or the United States depending on the century, I can tell you that most illegals have tremendous family values; they work at a minimum two jobs (16 hr.s per day) the sole purpose being to advance future generations of their own family. Many work and go to school,and if given the opportunity would gladly study and pass the citizenship course. There are many here at DU who could not pass this test. Working your way up from the absolute bottom,night school education advancing your family through hard work, are these not the American values we always trumpet?

If we are to restrict illegals from working in our system the costs borne would be huge. And what about all those Canadians, coming here and taking the good jobs, eh? :)

[AmyStrange]

4. That was my point actually...

sorry if I didn't explain myself very well.

The price of food would skyrocket if the Feds ever really did anything seriously about immigration.

Dave (AmyStrange.com)

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[German-Lefty]

5. It won't be a big hit for the consumer

Sure if they don't have cheap imigrant labour, it'll cost more to run American farms; but consumer cost won't "skyrocket".

1) Before lettuce costs $5, we'll just import it. Maybe from some place like Mexico where labour is cheap. The whole third world wants access to our markets. Food is something they can produce well even with low education levels and capital and it has the added benifit of improving thier lot in times of famine. Right now cheap US products flood 3rd world food markets in times of plenty, destroying their agriculture. Then in times of famine they have too little.

2) It won't cost that damn much to pay the poor guys minimum wage. Let's say you can pick 10 oranges an minute and I pay you minimum wage (was it about $6). That's $0.01 per orange not the $2.50 you were suggesting. We can live in a decent world where even the orange pickers can get a living wage.

I'm not for any plan to export those poor workers though. As far as I'm concerned they should be getting VISAs. If we benifit from the fruits of thier labors we are responsible for them. They should have legal recourse, minimum wage, unions, ect. I could see some kind of system where seasonal workers are "sponsored". Some citizen buys a bond and takes partial responsiblity for the welfare of the worker, and then the government grants him a visa. That way you get rid of the smuglers.

If you want a nany or maid just post $5000 bond. If she's good when she's here and leaves in accordance with the law you get your money plus interest. If she finds another host that should be ok too. Some countries have systems like this and there is abuse, but I think anything is better than what there is now.

[AmyStrange]

6. Good points...

but a head of lettuce now skyrockets when we (Seattle) import it from California. It almost doubles in price during the winter months and I'm not sure what kind of farming system there is in Mexico or what they grow or any of that, but the first few months would cause the prices to skyrocket until a Mexican sytem would be in place.

Personally, I think what might happen is the farms open themselves up to a buyer picks his own for a discount.

Also, I'm not sure how places like General foods gets their food that they put in cans? They they buy here or in other countries?

But I agree with your solutional ideas. Quite interesting and thanx for your input and I hope all of that (that I espoused) made sense?

Dave (AmyStrange.com)

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

[Capn Sunshine]

7. I wanted to expand on the economy taking a hit

Many in other parts of the country are blissfully unaware of the contribution that immigrants make to the economy.

Immigrants and their children bring long-term economic benefits to the United States as a whole. Immigrants add about $10 billion each year to the U.S. economy. This estimate does not include the impact of immigrant-owned businesses or the impact of highly skilled immigrants on overall productivity. Yet the harangue we hear from anti-immigrant groups involves what the illegals use in resources, which does not come close to this number even in the most hysterical of projections.

By conservative estimates, immigrant households paid an estimated $133 billion in direct taxes to federal, state, and local governments in 1997. The typical immigrant and his or her descendants pay an estimated $80,000 more in taxes than they will receive in local, state, and federal benefits over their lifetimes. Let us not forget the primary reason illegals are here is to ultimately become citizens, something many of us take for gramted by not even bothering to vote. Typically, those that dared to vote in a Central American election faced legitmate threat of death.

Immigrants who become U.S. citizens typically pay more in taxes than do native-born Americans. Adult, foreign-born, naturalized citizens actually have higher adjusted gross incomes (averaging $40,502) than families with U.S.-born citizens only ($35,249). Federal taxes paid by families with a naturalized citizen average $6,580 per year compared with $5,070 for U.S.-born-only families. ( figures pre tax cut)

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BTW........

Major High Tech Companies Started by Immigrants*
Company/Consortium Number of workers Annual Revenues
Intel 29,000 $11.5 billion
Sun Microsystems 11,000 $6.0 billion
Computer Associates 9,000 $2.6 billion
Solectron 4,545 $1.5 billion
Lam Research 3,600 $811 million
LSI Logic 2,600 $902 million
AST Computer 2,248 $2.4 billion
Wang Laboratories 2,000 $1.0 billion
Amtel 2,000 $600 million
Cypress Semiconductor 1,500 $600 million
Total 67,493 $27,913 billion

(Note: At least one of the company founders was foreign born.
Source: Stuart Anderson. Employment-Based Immigration and High Technology, (Washington, DC: Empower America, 1996).

As ususal, hysteria about the subject does little to address these facts.

Source:National Academy of Sciences , Immigration report